I have used PBR in landscaping, and hated it

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

12 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

People who love light and understand how effective lighting makes everything so much more beautiful.

Only in the eye of the beholder. A TV salesman pointed out to my partner at the time and I that the only difference between the then current CRT TV's and the new fangled flat screen TV's coming on the market, were the first few minutes of ohhh and ahhh at the pretty picture and then those watching get involved in the storyline of the show or movie. The brain auto fills in the view for what was missing in those older style TV's so that that new fangled TV was only good for the initial couple of minutes. 

You simply can't see it. I'm not surprised. Your activities in SL are focused elsewhere, as you've informed us.

[Arielle Popstar]

7 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Of course, and they kinda did (San<ahem>sar) and the majority of SL'er rejected with much hostility, thinking that it was a waste of money and would obsolete their products and worlds... Where here we are.. getting obsoleted... but now they get PBR on an outdated engine, LOL.

To some degree it was some expectation that we would be able to move over there from here, lock stock and barrel, and then later they reneged on that and told us we would in effect be needing to make new accounts or at least go there mostly empty handed. That is what turned a lot of us off on Sansar.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

2 minutes ago, CaitlinParker said:

In fact, the best solution would have been to build an entirely new engine, or working with one that is capable of handling PBR.

Creating an entirely new engine won't solve the problem of an unoptimized world.

Take any game/graphics engine and subject it to the same type of content you'll find in SL and it will have the same issues.

To be clear this isn't just an issue of poorly optimized content, even if every item in SL were perfectly created and optimized and as efficient as it possibly could be it still wouldn't make a lot of difference.

As others have pointed out (quite recently) most environments are pre-built, optimized, and very carefully compiled in order to maximize performance, often entire environments are built from a few modular building kits and a handful of very cleverly crafted texture sets.  Compare that to a platform like SL where everything is mixed and matched and there are regions where every single item is one of a kind (at least in that region) and uses completely unique textures and it's easy to see why performance in SL is comparatively awful.  I don't think an entirely new engine is going to solve that issue.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

You simply can't see it. I'm not surprised. Your activities in SL are focused elsewhere, as you've informed us.

And neither can you for the same reason but you hold out for the promise.

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

You simply can't see it. I'm not surprised. Your activities in SL are focused elsewhere, as you've informed us.

And neither can you for the same reason but you hold out for the promise.

Oh I see the difference in lighting and love it. I don't like some choices of water (will have to change it), and I don't like my fan running a bit harder, just like if I logged on with my PC of 20 years ago my fans would be running really hard.

If you see the benefit you accept some inconvenience.  You just don't see any benefit.

[Arielle Popstar]

7 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

I'm actually surprised at the comparative lack of wailing and gnashing of teeth I'm seeing from a change this big. Yes, there are problems but the noise level isn't as high as I've seen from considerably smaller changes and a significant portion of the complaints (especially on these forms) are coming from people whose teeth are basically in a permanent state of engnashment.

Have you looked in on the Firestorm group inworld? Not a pretty picture. From the complaints I was seeing it is sounding like there is more going on then just viewer as I've not experienced what many are seeing spite of having used the beta for quite some time.

[CaitlinParker]

6 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Creating an entirely new engine won't solve the problem of an unoptimized world.

Take any game/graphics engine and subject it to the same type of content you'll find in SL and it will have the same issues.

To be clear this isn't just an issue of poorly optimized content, even if every item in SL were perfectly created and optimized and as efficient as it possibly could be it still wouldn't make a lot of difference.

As others have pointed out (quite recently) most environments are pre-built, optimized, and very carefully compiled in order to maximize performance, often entire environments are built from a few modular building kits and a handful of very cleverly crafted texture sets.  Compare that to a platform like SL where everything is mixed and matched and there are regions where every single item is one of a kind (at least in that region) and uses completely unique textures and it's easy to see why performance in SL is comparatively awful.  I don't think an entirely new engine is going to solve that issue.

Then the only solution would be to rollback the engine to before they put out PBR, perform further testing with actual beta testers (rather than relying upon in-house testers) and fine tuning it so that they can re-release it without the negativity that it's received thus far.

[Codex Alpha]

11 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

To some degree it was some expectation that we would be able to move over there from here, lock stock and barrel, and then later they reneged on that and told us we would in effect be needing to make new accounts or at least go there mostly empty handed. That is what turned a lot of us off on Sansar.

I understand. I crossed both worlds. I just find it ironic that the same protesters will now end up having to do the same thing anyway. It is also not true that people went there empty handed. There were some SL creators here who simply updated their stuff in SL to work there. Now.. seemingly they will have to do it anyway... but on an old engine.

Also, if I want to provide PBR stuff, guess where I would have rather provided it to...

Edited June 21 by Codex Alpha

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Have you

Have you ever noticed that over many years you delight in something going wrong in SL and love to blame LL?

[Rowan Amore]

21 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Observation, not an accusation. What is the difference between those who want PBR and those who don't or at least don't care.

I'm going to have to agree with you here.  The average non-builder type SL user doesn't much care about PBR IF they're even aware of what it is.  No one I've talked to inworld is excited about it at all but I'm sure more than a few will be WTFing when they download the new FS.  

Case in point.  I went to a region the other day to take a picture.  I was.on the regular FS since I've been using both.  I come up on a section with white trees.  Hmm, I think.  Must be PBR content so I log out and log back in on PBR.  I knew who made the trees so I was kind of excited to see how much better they would look.  There was not enough difference from his older trees to matter much to me at all.   So why did he make them?  To sell AMAZING NEW PBR trees?  Pfft.  I'll use his older ones I still have in my inventory from 10 yrs ago.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

If you see the benefit you accept some inconvenience.  You just don't see any benefit.

Have you? I been on the beta viewer for months and other then a few trips to the beta grid to see the PBR creations, I've been mostly unimpressed and certainly don't see PBR as being worth what many are experiencing with this transition.

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Codex Alpha said:

I understand. I crossed both worlds. I just find it ironic that the same protesters will now end up having to do the same thing anyway. It is also not true that people went there empty handed. There were some SL creators here who simply updated their stuff in SL to work there. Now.. seemingly they will have to do it anyway... but on an old engine.

That is ironic, as well as those who complain that SL doesn't "look good" or more like other games.

[CaitlinParker]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Have you? I been on the beta viewer for months and other then a few trips to the beta grid to see the PBR creations, I've been mostly unimpressed and certainly don't see PBR as being worth what many are experiencing with this transition.

PBR should've been beta-tested for a longer length of time to find any problems that would arise.

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

31 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Observation, not an accusation. What is the difference between those who want PBR and those who don't or at least don't care.

I'm going to have to agree with you here.  The average non-builder type SL user doesn't much care about PBR IF they're even aware of what it is.  No one I've talked to inworld is excited about it at all but I'm sure more than a few will be WTFing when they download the new FS.  

You don't care about your body and your clothes?  Lighting affects those as well.

[Luna Bliss]

The thing is...if LL had not updated throughout all these years everything would look really bad!

6 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

If you see the benefit you accept some inconvenience.  You just don't see any benefit.

Have you? I been on the beta viewer for months and other then a few trips to the beta grid to see the PBR creations, I've been mostly unimpressed and certainly don't see PBR as being worth what many are experiencing with this transition.

When optimized correctly I see a lot of difference.

[Rowan Amore]

7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

You don't care about your body and your clothes?  Lighting affects those as well.

The last dozen or so pictures on my Flickr have been some PBR viewer and some regular.  All use region environmental lighting.  None of the clothing, skin, hair, etc are.PBR content.  Can you tell the difference between viewers?

My point is, there is very little gain for a.lot more negative as in performance.

Edited June 21 by Rowan Amore

[Zalificent Corvinus]

5 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Totes. Just like you were right about Lara X. Always right! it's everyone else who is wrong.

I said it was a badly made attempt to replace Real Lara with something 100% incompatible, and I was right.

I said it would split the Maitreya market, and I was right, last time I checked the mesh body usage states, Real Lara users outnumbered LardaX Failbutt by 9 to 1. Right again.

I said that creators who dropped Real Lara for LardaX, would find many customers changing to brands that didn't drop Lara, and I was right.

 

Funniest part, ios seeling the adverts listing bodies supported, and seeing THIS.

 

"Maitreya, Maitreya Petite, LardaX, LardaX Petite, ..."

 

Merchants who don't even refer to that thing as "the Maitreya body".

 

[Arielle Popstar]

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Have you ever noticed that over many years you delight in something going wrong in SL and love to blame LL?

I laugh at a company that doesn't listen to its users other then a small segment who are here for the money making opportunities. I see a company that regularly pull the sky down around its ears and the only saving grace that keeps it in business, is the residents that use the platform. The Lab's success is in spite of it, not because of it.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

2 minutes ago, CaitlinParker said:

Then the only solution would be to rollback the engine to before they put out PBR, perform further testing with actual beta testers (rather than relying upon in-house testers) and fine tuning it so that they can re-release it without the negativity that it's received thus far.

Well that's a solution, but I doubt that it's one that LL are willing to consider.

I think the recent updates to PBR are suffering from a number of issues which, while not particularly related, are causing people to have very negative experiences.  Clearly there are issues with the current EEP environments and PBR and there are obviously issues with wildly differing experiences regarding performance (some people are getting huge increases, others can barely look around or move).

I don't know why LL continue to do this with new features but it really does seem like whenever they release something big it's a lot like looking at one of those paint-by-numbers pictures where the child has carefully coloured in 90% of it and meticulously painted within the lines, and then got bored at the last minute and thrown whatever paint was available onto the page and then proudly said "Finished!" before running off to play outside instead.

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

You don't care about your body and your clothes?  Lighting affects those as well.

The last dozen or so pictures on my Flickr has been some PBR and some regular.  All use region environmental lighting.  None of the clothing, skin, hair, etc are.PBR content.  Can you tell the difference between viewers?

My point is, there is very little gain for a.lot more negative as in performance.

I do see a difference and think we'll see more as the bugs get ironed out, and I think negative performance will lessen.  I have faith, but I could be wrong...it could prove to be too difficult.

Edited June 21 by Luna Bliss

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

I do see a difference and think we'll see more as the bugs get ironed out, and I think negative performance will lessen.  I have faith, but I could be wrong...it could prove to be too difficult.

You see a difference in my pictures?  Which ones are PBR?

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Have you ever noticed that over many years you delight in something going wrong in SL and love to blame LL?

I laugh at a company that doesn't listen to its users other then a small segment who are here for the money making opportunities. I see a company that regularly pull the sky down around its ears and the only saving grace that keeps it in business, is the residents that use the platform. The Lab's success is in spite of it, not because of it.

I see a company that has made some mistakes, yes, but has also done a hell of a lot of things right.

It's not like there has been some instructional manual for them to follow you know...they had to experiment... sometimes failing, sometimes succeeding.

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

I see a company that has made some mistakes, yes, but has also done a hell of a lot of things right.

It's not like there has been some instructional manual for them to follow you know...they had to experiment... sometimes failing, sometimes succeeding.

They are not the only game in town. There is a lot of of precedence out there for them to learn from if they were to look, which they don't seem to.

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I do see a difference and think we'll see more as the bugs get ironed out, and I think negative performance will lessen.  I have faith, but I could be wrong...it could prove to be too difficult.

You see a difference in my pictures?  Which ones are PBR?

I wasn't referring to your particular photos but to other PBR content I've seen. I'd have to know how you set things up, what textures you utilized, which environmental settings you used, and more, in order to make that determination with your photos.

[Prokofy Neva]

51 minutes ago, Beq Janus said:

Honestly, because we had held back as long as made any practical sense. It is 7 months since LL put PBR. We drew a line in the sand with respect to what we considered blockers and the featurettes viewer closed the last of those (within reason). The question I had to ask was what is gained by waiting longer? If not the now fixed blockers, what was the magic bullet that we would need to wait for?  My conclusion was that getting a release out, a release that is comparatively stable and whose known issues are at least understood, opened up the options; it gives a forward path that people can choose, opens up the marketplace a little more and unbalanced the impasse.

"Windlight and EEP need to change" This is an infrastructure update, the people who own the regions and estates need to make these changes and this loops back to the opening point. We don't have an accurate picture any more of what proportion of SL users are FS users, let us assume it is a secure majority for the sake of this discussion. That places land-owners and creators in a chicken and egg situation. If Firestorm users have no PBR option then clearly there is no value in moving to PBR, people visiting will see non-PBR results; likewise creators are stuck making legacy content because only a minority can see their PBR content. We were in a stalemate situation, In the runup to release have had more bad vibes and petitioning from store owners than from LL.

Ultiamately Firestorm had the option to move this forward, and with our three release promise, we can help the transition forward and do so while giving time and scope for people to move forward and backwards. Right now, there's a dearth of content, people will I hope see that gap and provide products in the form of new EEP presets and so forth. 

How long til we turn off the last 6.X viewer? My expectation is that the next release will have to be WebRTC. Without FS on that, we are once again stuck in limbo. That will still leave 6.6.17 as a supported release. I have no sight of the roadmap beyond that for now. Moreover, now we have an option out there we will be reviewing the usage stats over the coming weeks to get a realistic idea of how many people are adopting (and not).

It is, as always, impossible to tell from the support rooms the actual numbers of people that are not adopting. As with all customer service type scenarios, you hear disproportionately from those with issues and negative views.  

I am not sure what the "they" in "they can be changed" means. If you mean settings in general, then that is not how this works. The entire lighting model has changed, it stands to reason that lighting assets (I'm looking at you EEP) that were calibrated to an older (very poor quality) lighting model will be out of kilter under the new model.

We do have a limited control in preferences called "exposure", but if you consider that we get as many people crying "OMFG the light is sooo white" as we do "OMFG its soooooo daaaark" there is no one size fits all solution, you could sit at home in the flat featureless CalWL, that people love, and slide the exposure down low to get it to not completely blow out the details. But walk down the street to the park where a darker preset has been used and suddenly you are plunged into darkness and groping around for the preferences again.

The problem in both of those prior cases requires a top down review of what is lighting the scene. Think real world. Is the sun out? If the sun is out the the scene is going to be bright, so start with an EEP and get the general weather settings to look right (quite often a quick tweak of the probe ambiance is actually enough to restore sanity) but for those who don't edit then I gave a link to the MP search earlier that has a bunch of PBR ready EEPs, try one or more of those esp the free ones. Once you have a baseline lighting then you can think about local lights, street lamps and the like. and finally consider the probes and @Nagachief Darkstone's video to finesse things if you need. Right now people are freaking out because the sun has changed and so I think we're some distance from manual probes being an answer.

I do have a plan to put some guides up for editing EEPs as part of our wiki pages or perhaps as a blog post. Anecdotal evidence suggests blog posts are somewhat of a waste of time though as many of the questions we have been asked were answered in the blog post, that nobody read.

 

I guess you live on an island with your blithe comment "the people who own the regions and estates need to make these changes"

While you can make changes on Mainland and Bellisseria regions, you can only do it on parcels you own. So it's back to Governor Linden and the Moles with this one.

You're the leader developer of an independent viewer, no? You don't have to slavishly follow what LL does -- you can be a force to curb their inept enthusiasms with your near-monopoly status. 

I simply don't believe you when you say you can't tell who is using what viewer. If you can't do this on your servers, you can do it through polls and even anecdotal reports from support groups. This makes no sense. This is like Oz Linden claiming he "can't tell" if the majority of people are using Firestorm as "some people use both". Ridiculous. Talk to my tenants if you won't talk to anyone else -- whom I constantly send to your help groups and island as I don't use Firestorm unless I'm forced to.

Surely there are settings under preferences/graphics that can be changed to MITIGATE this severe PBR hit on the view of the world for a good number of people. Turn off reflections? Stop it with the "lighting models" and "EEP" when there are simple things like simply UNCHECKING boxes, surely! "Exposure" is not so finely calibrated that you can't suggest a general rule to mitigate the glare and the plastic picnic tablecloths which are PBR at this point.

It's like with Fantasy Faire lag, when you were sending us to Firestorm's inner complicated and overdone menus instead of just saying "turn off the view of avatars while on the quest at least".

I will have more to say about this on my blog.