Starline Corvinus Posted March 13 Author Share Posted March 13 19 hours ago, PheebyKatz said: AWT (A Woman's Touch) might still be around, too. Ladies/girls/female-presenting avatars only, and mostly quite friendly, from what I've seen. An island getaway sort of place. Thank you for the recommendation, Pheeby. It seems to still be around; I went there during SL's off-hours (obviously no-one was there at the time) and I joined the group. I wasn't able to see any notices for events or anything in the group page, but I'll check back during active hours and I'll let everyone know how it goes. Honestly, I'm wondering if there are more hangouts in SL such as the Lesbian Teahouse, which are not clubs which play music where people come to dance. If anybody knows any other lesbian/female hangouts which are not clubs with music and dancing, then please let us know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) Honestly Starline, in response to your original question, just go to regular hangouts that are popular, and read profiles. It won't take long to find that which you seek. Visiting exclusively lez hangouts is no guarantee of anything. From my experience visiting lez places, as often as not, they are just pick up spots for excited avis. p.s. I checked out your profile inworld. It seems that you are entirely a RP character. That kind of puts you at a disadvantage trying to find someone "real" Edited March 13 by BilliJo Aldrin added a line 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 13 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: I think it could be an attempt to be accepted for who they are. Trans people (especially m2f) have a hard time being accepted as valid members of our society in RL (to put it mildly). Their murder rate is even higher. In a similar vein, I've seen people in SL using wheelchairs who are confined to them in RL. I think they want acceptance, and to learn how to navigate their condition via their interactions in SL. There is a guy (?) that hangs out at a swingers club I frequent. Sometimes they are a guy in a wheelchair, sometimes he able bodied, sometimes they are a woman in a wheelchair, sometimes she is able bodied. All I can think is wtf, pick something and stick with it. Of course they don't let the wheelchair stop them, they can hop on a poseball just as well as anyone else. I'd at least expect them to emote flopping out of the wheelchair and dragging themselves up onto the couch, but nooooo. Is the wheel chair just a prop to try and get some sympathy? Personally i find it disrespectful to anyone that actually needs a wheelchair in RL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starline Corvinus Posted March 13 Author Share Posted March 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: Honestly Starline, in response to your original question, just go to regular hangouts that are popular, and read profiles. It won't take long to find that which you seek. Visiting exclusively lez hangouts is no guarantee of anything. From my experience visiting lez places, as often as not, they are just pick up spots for excited avis. p.s. I checked out your profile inworld. It seems that you are entirely a RP character. That kind of puts you at a disadvantage trying to find someone "real" Yes, my background is of roleplay communities; I enjoy making profiles, doing light roleplay between avatars and friends and having lore to build on. The roleplay elements in my profile are just a cover to make things interesting and reflect what I enjoy doing; it doesn't make the person behind the avatar any less real. I have several accounts with the same avatar but for different purposes and it's just convenient to use one for forum posting. No-one's really confused at which account belongs to whom, because I make it so obvious the same person is behind all of them. I've never found that "being a roleplay character" has ever put me at a disadvantage when it comes to making friends and having genuine interactions with real people; a lot of the times I'm out-of-character anyway. Edited March 13 by Starline Corvinus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starline Corvinus Posted March 13 Author Share Posted March 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: Honestly Starline, in response to your original question, just go to regular hangouts that are popular, and read profiles. It won't take long to find that which you seek. Visiting exclusively lez hangouts is no guarantee of anything. From my experience visiting lez places, as often as not, they are just pick up spots for excited avis. p.s. I checked out your profile inworld. It seems that you are entirely a RP character. That kind of puts you at a disadvantage trying to find someone "real" There's plenty of people with furry personas, anime avatars and such but a lot of people it seems don't have any issues interacting with the real person behind them just because they have particular interests and tastes, or because they enjoy making a persona/lore around their character or roleplaying. Of course, people do have preferences. I'm not interested at all in seeing lots of male avatars all the time just as much as the average mainstream SL user with a human avatar who spends most of their time in places where anime and furry avatars aren't common is interested in seeing only anime or furry avatars all the time. That's why I go to female-presenting only and lesbian spaces. I just feel way more comfortable with it. Going to such places means I will take out of the equation and fulfill my desire of not having to see any male avatars whatsoever, so I can focus on my friendships and potential relationships, regardless of the actual gender of the people behind the avatars. I used to go to a club which attracted only men, and most of them were gay men, despite the club never advertising themselves as men-only or as a gay men's club. I went there because I liked the atmosphere, the music and the way people dressed there. But obviously none of them would be interested in me; other than just one other woman, I was the only female there. These days, I would not want to go there again, as my preferences have changed. Edited March 13 by Starline Corvinus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 8 hours ago, Katherine Heartsong said: Wow. Trans women are murdered for who they are, not what they do. Trans women yes are often at economic, educational, and marginalized that leads them to specific lifestyles, but they are murdered not because of their work, they are murdered because of their gender and identity because they are often violently despised for being trans by so many in society. And you don't even need to have an (R) after your name to hate on the trans community (though that is frequent), just look at well knownwriters for examples of bigotry and hate and misunderstanding. And black transgendered murder rate per capita is higher than black female murder rate per capita. Also ... Transgender people (16+) are victimized over four times more often than cisgender people. In 2017-2018, transgender people experienced 86.2 victimizations per 1,000 people compared to 21.7 victimizations per 1,000 people for cisgender people. Transgender women and men had higher rates of violent victimization (86.1 and 107.5 per 1,000 people, respectively) than cisgender women and men (23.7 and 19.8 per 1,000 people, respectively). One in four transgender women who were victimized thought the incident was a hate crime compared to less than one in ten cisgender women. In 2017-2018, transgender households had higher rates of property victimization (214.1 per 1,000 households) than cisgender households (108 per 1,000 households). I need to step out of this conversation with apologies. The Trans Murder Monitoring report tracks murders reported in the media each year, this year’s report includes deaths between Oct 1 2022 and September 30 2023. The vast majority of those killed (94%) were trans women or trans-feminine people. Most were Black, and many were sex workers too. 80% of those killed were of trans people affected by racism, an increase of 15% from last year. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiewareham/2023/11/13/beaten-stabbed-and-shot-320-trans-people-murdered-in-2023/?sh=4cac9c931646 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 6 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: p.s. I checked out your profile inworld. It seems that you are entirely a RP character. That kind of puts you at a disadvantage trying to find someone "real" Really? Do you wear bunny ears and a tail in RL? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 5 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: There is a guy (?) that hangs out at a swingers club I frequent. Sometimes they are a guy in a wheelchair, sometimes he able bodied, sometimes they are a woman in a wheelchair, sometimes she is able bodied. All I can think is wtf, pick something and stick with it. Of course they don't let the wheelchair stop them, they can hop on a poseball just as well as anyone else. I'd at least expect them to emote flopping out of the wheelchair and dragging themselves up onto the couch, but nooooo. Is the wheel chair just a prop to try and get some sympathy? Personally i find it disrespectful to anyone that actually needs a wheelchair in RL Wow. 😳 I can't imagine a more disrepectful description of someone with a disability, unless it were acting out mocking them. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 6 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: 19 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: I think it could be an attempt to be accepted for who they are. Trans people (especially m2f) have a hard time being accepted as valid members of our society in RL (to put it mildly). Their murder rate is even higher. In a similar vein, I've seen people in SL using wheelchairs who are confined to them in RL. I think they want acceptance, and to learn how to navigate their condition via their interactions in SL. There is a guy (?) that hangs out at a swingers club I frequent. Sometimes they are a guy in a wheelchair, sometimes he able bodied, sometimes they are a woman in a wheelchair, sometimes she is able bodied. All I can think is wtf, pick something and stick with it. Of course they don't let the wheelchair stop them, they can hop on a poseball just as well as anyone else. I'd at least expect them to emote flopping out of the wheelchair and dragging themselves up onto the couch, but nooooo. Is the wheel chair just a prop to try and get some sympathy? Personally i find it disrespectful to anyone that actually needs a wheelchair in RL What one apparently disturbed/confused individual does (per your edge case example) has no bearing on those who choose to portray themselves in SL as they are in RL in order to learn how to understand themselves better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 8 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: 23 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: Again, you just don't get that perspective from men choosing to play women in SL, though you might receive some of that perspective from actual lesbian trans women who, over time, came to terms with it all (although they will never truly have the understanding one acquires via growing up as a woman). I'm not knocking anyone who prefers to roleplay and experiment in SL in this way (on either side), or anyone who prefers not to delve more deeply into their identity. I'm only pointing out that if you truly feel you are a lesbian in any world, and want to explore this facet of your life, it's more beneficial to interact with actual women and lesbians who have gone through this experience. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that trans women are not "real women" because they have not gone through the experience of actually being women, growing up as women, experiencing life from day one as a woman. You seem to be saying its a ROLE they can get good at with practice If I misunderstood you, feel free to correct me I'm not saying that at all. I think they are real women. What I am saying is that men and women are socialized differently in most societies, and so most m2f transgender individuals did not have the experience of growing up as a woman and so likely lack the knowledge women acquired when growing up as a female. This fact could limit the empathy that would be beneficial for our OP as she struggles with her new identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: What one apparently disturbed/confused individual does (per your edge case example) has no bearing on those who choose to portray themselves in SL as they are in RL in order to learn how to understand themselves better. Actually he is in a wheelchair in RL, all the more reason for me to wonder why he bothers to use one in SL. Perhaps to get sympathy? Perhaps he feels like can’t compete with non-disabled (totally pc term there) men so he uses his wheelchair as a crutch to try and get an edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 6 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: 14 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: What one apparently disturbed/confused individual does (per your edge case example) has no bearing on those who choose to portray themselves in SL as they are in RL in order to learn how to understand themselves better. Actually he is in a wheelchair in RL, all the more reason for me to wonder why he bothers to use one in SL. Perhaps to get sympathy? Perhaps he feels like can’t compete with non-disabled (totally pc term there) men so he uses his wheelchair as a crutch to try and get an edge. You seem to be concerned about people who might use a weakness to get an advantage. I'm sure some might attempt that. But equally true are those who are just being themselves, or exploring who they are in SL. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starline Corvinus Posted March 13 Author Share Posted March 13 3 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: Actually he is in a wheelchair in RL, all the more reason for me to wonder why he bothers to use one in SL. Perhaps to get sympathy? Perhaps he feels like can’t compete with non-disabled (totally pc term there) men so he uses his wheelchair as a crutch to try and get an edge. That's the most gross misrepresentation of disabled people I've ever heard of in SL. A bit like trans people, disabled people use avatars that reflect their status in real life for representation, visibility and acceptance. As far as the ones I dated go, they don't get out much and they expressed that they often get treated differently but it was important to be true to themselves. The other one changed his avatar in order to fit in more, and I had to persuade him that it's okay to be his true self and that I liked him because of it. They're not looking for sympathy, they're looking to be accepted and to be seen as valuable members of their community. I liked my boyfriend precisely because he didn't feel the need to compete with other men, by having yet another hypermasculine He-Man/Thor clone of an avatar. If anything, like real life... it puts him at a disadvantage. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: I'm not saying that at all. I think they are real women. What I am saying is that men and women are socialized differently in most societies, and so most m2f transgender individuals did not have the experience of growing up as a woman and so likely lack the knowledge women acquired when growing up as a female. This fact could limit the empathy that would be beneficial for our OP as she struggles with her new identity. You think they are real women, but you admit that they don’t the history, background and experience that comes with being a real woman. THAT is what makes a real woman, not some longing or unfulfilled desire. I’m treading in thin ice here, because a mod could come along say im being disrespectful and creating a hostile environment for the trans community, when all i am doing is expressing an opinion. Unfortunatly expressing an opinion is no longer allowed, all we have left is the accepted, proper opinion, and hate speech. Edited March 13 by BilliJo Aldrin grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 9 hours ago, Starline Corvinus said: When it comes to dating and such, my primary preference may be biological women, but it still stands: I am certainly just as open to anybody who presents in a feminine manner; men with female avatars and trans women. Well just be careful out there Like you've described your experience, I've encountered the same and I do believe most transgender individuals are honest in SL. But...there is this faction that causes trouble for many, and for lesbians in particular. They have a kind of fetish and desire to see 2 women together in bed, and so would be using you for their sexual kicks in such a case. Then there are other men who aren't trans at all and get a kick out of fooling women. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorciaa Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 back on topic.... WH 21 is or has been packed the last few weeks.. if your having issues with the lag, maybe try Black Pearl when its open. Often it has alot of the same people as WH but seems to be less crowded.. now if you dont mind more adult types of places.. you can try Dark Butterfly. they are female only and often have DJs and seems to be fairly busy but not overly so. Your welcome to just listen to the DJ and dance and do not need to participate in the more adult aspects. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starline Corvinus Posted March 13 Author Share Posted March 13 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Well just be careful out there Like you've described your experience, I've encountered the same and I do believe most transgender individuals are honest in SL. But...there is this faction that causes trouble for many, and for lesbians in particular. They have a kind of fetish and desire to see 2 women together in bed, and so would be using you for their sexual kicks in such a case. Then there are other men who aren't trans at all and get a kick out of fooling women. I'll definitely keep this in mind; it's still early in my lesbian exploration, but I haven't experienced at all what you just described myself, but I hope it's not more scaremongering based on preconceptions and assumptions. That's the kind of thing I've heard about in passing, in casual banter, but I don't know if it actually reflects reality for the most part. Yes, back to the main topic, taking into consideration that sticking to female-only/lesbian spaces can be restrictive or limiting, does anybody have any recommendations for places like Warehouse 21 which was mentioned as attracting a mostly female crowd? I once went to a dance hosted at Abbott's Historical Airport (and Smuggler's Bluff) that happened to be all-female, until an apparently well-regarded resident with a male avatar showed up. While I appreciate all your insights and perspectives and will respond to them, I appreciate those who stay on topic. Edited March 13 by Starline Corvinus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) 24 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: Actually he is in a wheelchair in RL, all the more reason for me to wonder why he bothers to use one in SL. Perhaps to get sympathy? Perhaps he feels like can’t compete with non-disabled (totally pc term there) men so he uses his wheelchair as a crutch to try and get an edge. Perhaps you don't understand because his lived experience is not the same as your lived experience. Some people prefer to express themselves in SL more or less like they look in RL. Others prefer to express themselves in a different or idealized way in SL. I think most of us fall somewhere in between or change our SL appearance depending on our mood. We may choose to look younger and thinner in SL. We might choose to have bigger breasts, to be taller, to not display our RL race or gender, to dress more provocatively, or to not display a RL disability. You can't know the motivations for another user choosing their avatar(s) unless you know them personally and they tell you this. To assume that a person displays a disability in SL in order to get sympathy is very presumptuous and ableist. Edited March 13 by Persephone Emerald Tighter wording 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 58 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said: Really? Do you wear bunny ears and a tail in RL? My profile is all about the real me, everything you might want to know about me is stated honestly and clearly. The bunny ears and tail are cute, thats why I wear them, and yes they are an attention getter, they make me stand out, except around easter when girls with bunny ears and tails are a dime a dozen. And no, I dont wear them in RL, but I do have pink bunny slippers I wear around the house 😁 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 3 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: 14 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: I'm not saying that at all. I think they are real women. What I am saying is that men and women are socialized differently in most societies, and so most m2f transgender individuals did not have the experience of growing up as a woman and so likely lack the knowledge women acquired when growing up as a female. This fact could limit the empathy that would be beneficial for our OP as she struggles with her new identity. You think they are real women, but you admit they don’t the history, background and experience that comes with being a real woman. THAT is what makes a real woman, not some longing or unfulfilled desire. I’m treading in thin ice here, because a mod could come along say im being disrespectful and creating a hostile environment for the trans community, when all i am doing is expressing an opinion. Unfortunatly expressing an opinion is no longer allowed, all we have left is the accepted, proper opinion, and hate speech. Gender issues are complex. Though a mtf transgender individual lacked the experience of being a woman through childhood it was only because they were denied that expression. And so they lack some empathy acquired when one is able to express who they truly are (when we can be who we are we process our emotions related to all the complexities of gender identity, and so develop empathy). This has no bearing on whether they are a woman or not. As I've said before, it stunts empathy they may have garnered had they been allowed to be who they are. A woman who was denied the expression of being a woman is still a woman. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 5 minutes ago, Sorciaa said: back on topic.... WH 21 is or has been packed the last few weeks.. if your having issues with the lag, maybe try Black Pearl when its open. Often it has alot of the same people as WH but seems to be less crowded.. now if you dont mind more adult types of places.. you can try Dark Butterfly. they are female only and often have DJs and seems to be fairly busy but not overly so. Your welcome to just listen to the DJ and dance and do not need to participate in the more adult aspects. Dark butterfly is cool, its a lez d/s place, but like so many places, local chat is dead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Gender issues are complex. Though a mtf transgender individual lacked the experience of being a woman through childhood it was only because they were denied that expression. And so they lack some empathy acquired when one is able to express who they truly are (when we can be who we are we process our emotions related to all the complexities of gender identity, and so develop empathy). This has no bearing on whether they are a woman or not. As I've said before, it stunts empathy they may have garnered had they been allowed to be who they are. A woman who was denied the expression of being a woman is still a woman. Obviously we have different ideas of what a woman is, but we will have to leave it at that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) 8 hours ago, Starline Corvinus said: 8 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: Well just be careful out there Like you've described your experience, I've encountered the same and I do believe most transgender individuals are honest in SL. But...there is this faction that causes trouble for many, and for lesbians in particular. They have a kind of fetish and desire to see 2 women together in bed, and so would be using you for their sexual kicks in such a case. Then there are other men who aren't trans at all and get a kick out of fooling women. I'll definitely keep this in mind; it's still early in my lesbian exploration, but I haven't experienced at all what you just described myself, but I hope it's not more scaremongering based on preconceptions and assumptions. That's the kind of thing I've heard about in passing, in casual banter, but I don't know if it actuallybreflects reality for the most part. It is my experience as well as the experience of many lesbians I've known. I've been in SL nearly 20 years. I'm not sure we should be letting men who, for various reasons, are terrified they might be relating sexually to another man, totally define what's going on here. They whine the loudest, their voices get heard the most. There are other perspectives (for example, lesbians who have had negative experiences and are generally being ignored when describing the very real abuse that sometimes occurs). Edited March 14 by Luna Bliss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starline Corvinus Posted March 13 Author Share Posted March 13 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Sorciaa said: back on topic.... WH 21 is or has been packed the last few weeks.. if your having issues with the lag, maybe try Black Pearl when its open. Often it has alot of the same people as WH but seems to be less crowded.. now if you dont mind more adult types of places.. you can try Dark Butterfly. they are female only and often have DJs and seems to be fairly busy but not overly so. Your welcome to just listen to the DJ and dance and do not need to participate in the more adult aspects. Thank you very much for the recommendation, Sorciaa. I'll definitely keep these on my list, although adult-type places aren't really my kind of thing. There are A-rated communities I've been to, such as Anachronism, which are rated A but usually no adult themed stuff actually goes on as far as I can see. They probably want to be open to that possibility, while also not wanting child avatars around or something. Edited March 13 by Starline Corvinus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalegthepsionicist Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) 15 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: Honestly Starline, in response to your original question, just go to regular hangouts that are popular, and read profiles. It won't take long to find that which you seek. Visiting exclusively lez hangouts is no guarantee of anything. From my experience visiting lez places, as often as not, they are just pick up spots for excited avis. p.s. I checked out your profile inworld. It seems that you are entirely a RP character. That kind of puts you at a disadvantage trying to find someone "real" she looking for someone to hook up./ pick up or someting like that Edited March 13 by Kalegthepsionicist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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