Everyone happy with the new indexing? Is there any creator pissed off like me?

[Namuri]

Hello,

will the new indexing remain as it is or will we be able to catch up at the pace we were before?

Does anyone know anything or have you surrendered with things as they are?
Indexing is a DISASTER.

What the photo shows is the "relevance" in regards to Japanese temples. I don't want to offend these creators, but these items aren't even meshes, they're just old items that shouldn't be on top of articles for relevance.

And this is just my example.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

Relevance is basically "best match," not necessarily the latest or greatest. Note how each of those products have the exact phrase "japanese temple," though not all of the results do (like if you sorted by Newest First).

If you only want mesh japanese temples, add the word "mesh" to your search.

If you only want new stuff, sort by Newest First.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Namuri]

21 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Relevance is basically "best match," not necessarily the latest or greatest. Note how each of those products have the exact phrase "japanese temple," though not all of the results do (like if you sorted by Newest First).

If you only want mesh japanese temples, add the word "mesh" to your search.

it wasn't for my search, it was for my Shop on MP and I wanted to know what other creators think about this situation...

Edited June 11, 2023 by Namuri

[Wulfie Reanimator]

45 minutes ago, Namuri said:

it wasn't for my search, it was for my Shop on MP and I wanted to know what other creators think about this situation...

Oh, if you're talking about the single-store view, there's a huge threads about that among others. It's been discussed a lot here.

https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/496874-marketplace-broken-again/

https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/464422-marketplace-is-failing-to-update-relevance-sort/

There's also been several official blog posts from Linden Lab about what happened, why, and what's coming. Here's a timeline:

https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/12829-we’re-improving-marketplace-search/
https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/12885-updates-to-marketplace-search/
https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/13127-what-the-heck-happened-to-my-marketplace-store/
https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/13345-marketplace-spring-cleaning/
https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/13486-infrastructure-upgrades-and-temporary-downtime-on-second-life-marketplace/

[Flea Yatsenko]

41 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Relevance is basically "best match," not necessarily the latest or greatest. Note how each of those products have the exact phrase "japanese temple," though not all of the results do (like if you sorted by Newest First).

If you only want mesh japanese temples, add the word "mesh" to your search. Even from my store the old items are ranked higher.

If only that's how it worked but that's not a good enough keyword. Plenty of very outdated products that are made of mesh.

It's terrible, I only sell low end, outdated products now and don't sell anything new. So I don't even bother uploading new products. I tried doing a huge sale to lower the cost of my more expensive, high end products and it made zero difference. No one is finding them in search. Just looking through search and going back pages and pages there's lots of quality stuff buried between 2 LI caves and sculpties even though you're searching for mesh.

I worry the old, bad items are still selling enough to taint any sort of data they have about product sales. I.E. someone's outdated stuff shows up on page 1, people buy it because they don't know any better, then it gets ranked higher in search because it's selling more. It's obviously going to scare away new users, because anything they look for will be outdated, and by extension make SL look outdated. You can say "well what about boolean operators and changing sorting and all these other features" but newbies aren't going to know and aren't going to care. Do you think a new user to SL who is trying to search for stuff their first time knows to search for mesh and material instead of sculpties? They have no clue.

I just accepted it, they aren't going to fix it. It's still early but I'm gonna fix it, I'll say more later. I was patient at least.

[Namuri]

6 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Oh, if you're talking about the single-store view, there's a huge threads about that among others. It's been discussed a lot here.

https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/496874-marketplace-broken-again/

https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/464422-marketplace-is-failing-to-update-relevance-sort/

There's also been several official blog posts from Linden Lab about what happened, why, and what's coming. Here's a timeline:

https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/12829-we’re-improving-marketplace-search/
https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/12885-updates-to-marketplace-search/
https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/13127-what-the-heck-happened-to-my-marketplace-store/
https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/13345-marketplace-spring-cleaning/
https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/13486-infrastructure-upgrades-and-temporary-downtime-on-second-life-marketplace/

wow, thank you so much man 😉

[Namuri]

18 minutes ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

If only that's how it worked but that's not a good enough keyword. Plenty of very outdated products that are made of mesh.

It's terrible, I only sell low end, outdated products now and don't sell anything new. So I don't even bother uploading new products. I tried doing a huge sale to lower the cost of my more expensive, high end products and it made zero difference. No one is finding them in search. Just looking through search and going back pages and pages there's lots of quality stuff buried between 2 LI caves and sculpties even though you're searching for mesh.

I worry the old, bad items are still selling enough to taint any sort of data they have about product sales. I.E. someone's outdated stuff shows up on page 1, people buy it because they don't know any better, then it gets ranked higher in search because it's selling more. It's obviously going to scare away new users, because anything they look for will be outdated, and by extension make SL look outdated. You can say "well what about boolean operators and changing sorting and all these other features" but newbies aren't going to know and aren't going to care. Do you think a new user to SL who is trying to search for stuff their first time knows to search for mesh and material instead of sculpties? They have no clue.

I just accepted it, they aren't going to fix it. It's still early but I'm gonna fix it, I'll say more later. I was patient at least.

You know what I don't understand?
If they have decided they want to fail.
Simply because from what I see sales have dropped and consequently the percentages they retain on our sold products have dropped.
And I don't think that a neophyte hasn't already noticed the wonders that are around the SIMs, that is to say that he will try to look for well-made articles, but without success, given the disastrous indexing.

[Flea Yatsenko]

16 minutes ago, Namuri said:

You know what I don't understand?
If they have decided they want to fail.
Simply because from what I see sales have dropped and consequently the percentages they retain on our sold products have dropped.
And I don't think that a neophyte hasn't already noticed the wonders that are around the SIMs, that is to say that he will try to look for well-made articles, but without success, given the disastrous indexing.

This horse has been beaten to death. I'm making something but I'm not spilling the beans yet, but I think people will be pretty happy. I am happy so far and it's a very rough draft.

[Pit Banx]

For a long time I hoped that LL would work on the MP working the way it used to, but I gave up hope. For me it makes no more sense to create new products for secondLife. In the beginning they may be bought when people are looking for new products, but after a short time they will no longer be found and therefore no longer bought. It is incomprehensible that LL lets us creators down.

[Namuri]

11 hours ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

This horse has been beaten to death. I'm making something but I'm not spilling the beans yet, but I think people will be pretty happy. I am happy so far and it's a very rough draft.

 

4 hours ago, Pit Banx said:

For a long time I hoped that LL would work on the MP working the way it used to, but I gave up hope. For me it makes no more sense to create new products for secondLife. In the beginning they may be bought when people are looking for new products, but after a short time they will no longer be found and therefore no longer bought. It is incomprehensible that LL lets us creators down.

Flea and Pit, in the meantime I have seen your shops and I congratulate you. Mesh creations done very well.
Returning to our problem, I also took a look at the links Wulfie sent me, some are from two years ago, but so be it.
Couldn't we petition to get the cursed Marketplace back to working as before?

[Wulfie Reanimator]

43 minutes ago, Namuri said:

 

Flea and Pit, in the meantime I have seen your shops and I congratulate you. Mesh creations done very well.
Returning to our problem, I also took a look at the links Wulfie sent me, some are from two years ago, but so be it.
Couldn't we petition to get the cursed Marketplace back to working as before?

Only one of the links is a 2yo thread, but half of the posts in it are from this year.

And sadly no, it's basically impossible to return Marketplace to the state it was before. The update was massive, the search engine went from version 2.3 (released 6 years ago) to 8.4. I can say from professional and personal experience that trying to downgrade or undo something like that just isn't happening in reality because there are too many connected things. It's much easier to kick LL into improving what we have now.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Namuri]

1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Only one of the links is a 2yo thread, but half of the posts in it are from this year.

sorry, i was wrong.

1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

And sadly no, it's basically impossible to return Marketplace to the state it was before. The update was massive, the search engine went from version 2.3 (released 6 years ago) to 8.4. I can say from professional and personal experience that trying to downgrade or undo something like that just isn't happening in reality because there are too many connected things. It's much easier to kick LL into improving what we have now.

So do we creators have to surrender to this disaster?

[Wulfie Reanimator]

12 minutes ago, Namuri said:

sorry, i was wrong.

So do we creators have to surrender to this disaster?

No, you can gather support on the Jira with feature requests and bug reports. Explain to them very clearly what isn't working, why it isn't working, how it should work, and why it should work that way. Many tickets have been filed, some better than others, and then we must all wait for LL to implement those changes.

[Arwen Serpente]

As Wulfie says, nothing wrong with filing a new JIRA and gathering support. However, be aware that all the JIRAs/bug reports filed regarding this issue (and there were almost 2 dozen by my count) have been closed. The most recent comments are they are working on it with no ETA. As said, this issue has been repeated over and over, pleas to LL for help have not been addressed, only promises made.

[Namuri]

29 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

No, you can gather support on the Jira with feature requests and bug reports. Explain to them very clearly what isn't working, why it isn't working, how it should work, and why it should work that way. Many tickets have been filed, some better than others, and then we must all wait for LL to implement those changes.

I made a ticket ping-pong my friend, this is one of it... https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-233966

At this point I hope all the angry creators have bombarded Jira with their grievances.

[Namuri]

3 minutes ago, Arwen Serpente said:

As Wulfie says, nothing wrong with filing a new JIRA and gathering support. However, be aware that all the JIRAs/bug reports filed regarding this issue (and there were almost 2 dozen by my count) have been closed. The most recent comments are they are working on it with no ETA. As said, this issue has been repeated over and over, pleas to LL for help have not been addressed, only promises made.

I see Arwen. Thanks to you too.

...Sorry, what ETA is?

[Arwen Serpente]

ETA - estimated time of arrival

or as LL likes to say "soooooooon"

Thanks for posting the link to your JIRA. Added myself to watching.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Arwen Serpente

[Namuri]

2 minutes ago, Arwen Serpente said:

ETA - estimated time of arrival

or as LL likes to say "soooooooon"

Thanks for posting the link to your JIRA. Added myself to watching.

ahahah "sooooooon"... suuuuure!

Maria Korolov, the chief administrator of Hypergrid Business, told me that the LL are completely disorganized.

...And I realize that they really are.

[Ardy Lay]

Are we still discussing what "relevant" means?

[Namuri]

7 minutes ago, Ardy Lay said:

Are we still discussing what "relevant" means?

No, we're discussing the crap indexing of the Marketplace.

[Ardy Lay]

2 minutes ago, Namuri said:

No, we're discussing the crap indexing of the Marketplace.

Unfortunately, there is no sort option: Read My Mind.

We get: 

"Relevance" should NOT make assumptions.  It should only operate on the parameters input to the search.  It would appear that what is most relevant are listings that most closely match a phrase search, followed by a sequence insensitive word search of primarily Item Title followed by Keywords and Extended Description.  I have found that non-alphabetic characters are a hinderance to discoverability.

If you then select a MODIFIER such as Age, Price, Name order, Land Impact, Rating or Best Selling, then those are COMBINED with the text matched relevancy to MODIFY the sequence of presentation.

I would like to see an additional modifier for "What's Hot", maybe with a few time ranges to choose from.  Might be interesting to be able to easily find that hot new item everybody is buying this week without having to dig for it or wait for it to percolate up the Best-Selling overall statistics.

I find that I search by Merchants / Stores a lot.

Just don't expect entering Merchant or Store names into Items: Keywords to be useful.

 

[Namuri]

12 minutes ago, Ardy Lay said:

Unfortunately, there is no sort option: Read My Mind.

We get: 

"Relevance" should NOT make assumptions.  It should only operate on the parameters input to the search.  It would appear that what is most relevant are listings that most closely match a phrase search, followed by a sequence insensitive word search of primarily Item Title followed by Keywords and Extended Description.  I have found that non-alphabetic characters are a hinderance to discoverability.

If you then select a MODIFIER such as Age, Price, Name order, Land Impact, Rating or Best Selling, then those are COMBINED with the text matched relevancy to MODIFY the sequence of presentation.

I would like to see an additional modifier for "What's Hot", maybe with a few time ranges to choose from.  Might be interesting to be able to easily find that hot new item everybody is buying this week without having to dig for it or wait for it to percolate up the Best-Selling overall statistics.

I find that I search by Merchants / Stores a lot.

Just don't expect entering Merchant or Store names into Items: Keywords to be useful.

 

Thank you for your time.
I changed the name of my japanese buildings by putting first "Japanese Temple" or "Japanese house" or "Japanese temple" but there is nothing to do, some are on the first page, but below.
My anger comes from the fact that if you first searched for "japanese temple", at least two of my creations appeared at the top.
I'm not saying this to brag, it's just part of my nervousness.
Now if you search for Japanese Temple, these objects appear at the top which, no offense to any creator, are obsolete, they are not even meshes at all, they are sculpts from a few centuries ago.
Is this the "relevance"?
They could also put the beautiful creations of Ryusho Ort, which are sculpt but at least they are very well done. Instead THEY MADE UP A MESS.

[Ardy Lay]

A search engine will not know what is relevant to your desire unless you tell it.  It also will not know if a product is "prims", "sculpted prims" or "mesh" unless you tell it in the product description.  Likewise, a search engine does not know what these words mean to you nor does a search engine know the chronology of construction technologies in Second Life.

If you don't want an old item to appear in search results, then disable the listing.  Superiorly, modify the listing to clearly state what construction technology was used during the product's creation.  Sometimes I want a modifiable primitive creation instead of an unmodifiable mesh creation.  Additionally, you can create a link to a newer version of an old product to help shoppers find the newer version.  Marketplace listings do have a place for product versions that you might also consider utilizing.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

5 hours ago, Namuri said:

I made a ticket ping-pong my friend, this is one of it... https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-233966

At this point I hope all the angry creators have bombarded Jira with their grievances.

49 minutes ago, Namuri said:

Thank you for your time.
I changed the name of my japanese buildings by putting first "Japanese Temple" or "Japanese house" or "Japanese temple" but there is nothing to do, some are on the first page, but below.
My anger comes from the fact that if you first searched for "japanese temple", at least two of my creations appeared at the top.
I'm not saying this to brag, it's just part of my nervousness.
Now if you search for Japanese Temple, these objects appear at the top which, no offense to any creator, are obsolete, they are not even meshes at all, they are sculpts from a few centuries ago.
Is this the "relevance"?
They could also put the beautiful creations of Ryusho Ort, which are sculpt but at least they are very well done. Instead THEY MADE UP A MESS.

I'm sorry but... "it's a disaster" doesn't explain the problem at all. "My item isn't first anymore" isn't an actionable problem either. That Jira ticket is just a complaint, not a solution that LL can implement.

"The top items are very old" is a subjective problem. Yes, the top 3 items in your search are 8-12 years old, but you should start by explaining how you think relevance should work in general. How do you determine what is a relevant product to a search? How do you apply that to all searches?

Edited June 12, 2023 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Namuri]

1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I'm sorry but... "it's a disaster" doesn't explain the problem at all. "My item isn't first anymore" isn't an actionable problem either. That Jira ticket is just a complaint, not a solution that LL can implement.

"The top items are very old" is a subjective problem. Yes, the top 3 items in your search are 8-12 years old, but you should start by explaining how you think relevance should work in general. How do you determine what is a relevant product to a search? How do you apply that to all searches?

you answered yourself, the most relevant items should be those done well and with due reviews, not 8-12 year old items.

On the ticket what do you think I had to do? Threatening to kill?