Are avatars too narrow?

[Bree Giffen]

Something always strikes me as unnatural when I look at avatars. I'm sure it's a combination of things. While we get constant reminders on height we rarely mention width. I think our avatar torsos are simply a little narrow and it does cause problems when adjusting other body parts. Thighs for instance. They seem way too skinny on men and women. Breasts and buttocks also suffer as the adjustment skiders make them grow front to back, up and down, but not side to side. What do you think? Are all avatars this way? Or are they ok?

[Kascha Matova]

 

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Bree Giffen wrote:

Something always strikes me as unnatural when I look at avatars. I'm sure it's a combination of things. While we get constant reminders on height we rarely mention width. I think our avatar torsos are simply a little narrow and it does cause problems when adjusting other body parts. Thighs for instance. They seem way too skinny on men and women. Breasts and buttocks also suffer as the adjustment skiders make them grow front to back, up and down, but not side to side. What do you think? Are all avatars this way? Or are they ok?

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I do know what you're talking about Bree (that's my daughter's name btw except we spelled it Brie, so yay!)

I've noticed for a long time for example that while my butt looks correct from like a 3/4 angle from the front and also from the side, if I turn the camera so it's looking from the back and slightly below, especially when I'm wearing tight jeans, it looks...I don't want to say like a boy's butt but it seems to lose some of what my eyes tell me should be the natural curve that fills it out. It just doesn't look right, or the same at all.

I don't know whether that's lighting or some limitation of 3D modeling (doubt that part because I've seen it done properly elsewhere). Also, I've noticed the legs thing - specifically that from certain angles only, my legs look like pickup sticks while from others they look toned but very definitely feminine. It's almost like there are viewing angles that make the avie look either 2D or skewed, like if you increased height in Photoshop with maintain aspect ratio turned off.

Is that what you mean? Because otherwise I'm babbling! :smileysad:

[Lyra Blackthorne]

Not all avatars are too narrow, nor are all too wide.  Each is made or purchased to suit the preference of the wearer. Too tall, too short, just right all in the eye of the perceiver.  I have spoken with many people that I think are very odd looking...but, they think they are beautiful; who am I to say differently.  The best thing about SL is that we all get to be exactly as we wish.

[majestic12]

Based on skin and shape, you can create an avatar to be abnormal to super-gorgeous, if time and patience is given.

In another forum thread, there is a discussion on how people have tweaked their avatar since its birth, including mine, I am not one year old yet, but I tweak mine every month.

There are many factors involved that can make an avi look weird: skin, shape, clothing, ao, hair, lagging rez, etc.

 

[Marianne Little]

Well, the fashion trend is that the thinner you are, the prettier you are. The ultra-thin Ralph Lauren photoshopped models is some of the most offensive, but almost all ads are photoshopped a bit, so the models shall look thinner. Just not so much as this picture: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QKwwR3v3bcA/SucHR630q9I/AAAAAAAAE5U/h0kw3jfIm9E/s400/ralph+lauren+photoshop10-27-2009+7-40-03+AM.png

The sliders that affect hips most have the unappealing name "saddlebags". I am sure many female avatars don't dare to push them up a bit, having learnt from childhood that saddlebags is ugly. I know my female shapes is very thin, but they have hips.

I think many set their shoulders too wide, both men and women. That makes their hips look even smaller. I do wish that we had better shapes, and more sliders.

[Melanie774 Kidd]

A lot of it has to do with getting proportions right. Your av can be 3' tall or 7' tall; as long as you've kept good proportions (i.e., hips to waist ratio, shoulder to hips) then your av shouldn't appear "narrow".

Speaking of wanting improved shape sliders, a nose length slider would be near the top of my wish list. Also, more control over the appearance of limb thickness, particularly in the area of the legs. When I do a curvier/heavier shape, I add more muscle to the legs but too much can give an exaggerated "drumstick" look that I don't like.

 

[Penny Patton]

Most people stretch the avatar shape out way too much, it looks like they were all put through Willy Wonka's taffy machine. The Lindens are every bit as guilty of this, but it seems pretty clear by now that LL either doesn't have an art staff or does thier best to keep the art staff far away from anything where they may have a positive impact on SL.

It is actually not only possible to create avatars that aren't stretched out like this, but simple even. If a bit time consuming. I've posted an avatar proportion checking guide here, which a couple of others have turned into blog posts elsewhere.

[Penny Patton]

It's worth noting just how messed up ideas of avatar shape really are.

Most avatars in SL have arms that are far, far too short for their bodies. This is so common, that if you have someone stretch out their arms to human proportions, the person thinks they look too long (at least at first) just because they're so used to SL's super short arms.

Also, my very own avatar has regularly been called a child, a dwarf, fat, squat, etcetera. This av, this av right here!

To be fair, I've only been called these things by people with avatars exemplifying observations like those in this thread but seeing as how this is considered "fat" by apparently a significant portion of the SL population, it's probably not so surprising that you see so many avatars, men and women, with waists as thin as their undersized heads.

 

Men seem to have no trouble bumping up the shoulder width slider as far as it goes, however.

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Bree Giffen wrote:

Something always strikes me as unnatural when I look at avatars. I'm sure it's a combination of things. While we get constant reminders on height we rarely mention width. I think our avatar torsos are simply a little narrow and it does cause problems when adjusting other body parts.

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This just means you have eyes.

And like anyone with eyes, you can tell how horrid the proportions are on so many people's AVs in SL.

A problem from so many crappy shape makers.

And before anyone goes on a height rant about Sl meters beings some foo-nanny-wizzy-gogga-buzza-wiggle scale... this ain't bout'cha height. Its about proportions.

See Penny Pattons comment above mine.

 

Shape makers in SL have crap for skills. Rude of me sure, but they deserve to get called out for how crappy their work has been for so long.

Sure, make it as tall as you want - but get the darn proportions right...

Height may be about preference. But proportions are about anatomy - about being right, or wrong. And they are wrong. Simple as that.

 

If you need more visuals than Penny's offered, I illustrated how to do it step by step:

http://catnapkitty.wordpress.com/2011/06/15/getting-good-body-proportions-in-second-life/

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Marianne Little wrote:

Well, the fashion trend is that the thinner you are, the prettier you are. The ultra-thin Ralph Lauren photoshopped models is some of the most offensive, but almost all ads are photoshopped a bit, so the models shall look thinner.

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If we analyze that we end up with some very politically incorrect observations. Or at least I do.

The fashion industry is not run by women. It is run by gay men. Gay men are really great folks - I live in San Francisco and have ended up quite fond of friendships with many of them - But their ideal of attraction is men, not women.

So they pick fashion models with 'malish' bodies... (but not masculine). They go for women who well... have underemphasized feminine traits. Smaller busts and hips, less curve in the waist. Baby ain't got no back.

That then gets pushed on everyone as some kind of ideal. But we've really only been on this ideal since somewhere in the 60s or 70s or so.

Just to get even more politically incorrect... flip open a 'Men's magazine' and notice how different body types of the "models" there can often be from that in a fashion-rag.

- The ideal of what is a normal human body is somewhere inbetween those two extremes, but often closer to the "models" in the men's magazines (minus perhaps bust size... ).

 

[Penny Patton]

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Marianne Little wrote:

 I do wish that we had better shapes, and more sliders.

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I agree wholeheartedly that we need better starting shapes. I honestly believe LL should supply a small assortment of well made, properly scaled and proportioned shapes not only as part of the starting avatars, but as templates users can choose from when creating a new shape. These shapes should cover the range of short to tall (as in about 4' to 6'4" to encourage better scale), skinny to super heroic muscles and as fat as is possible with the mesh shape itself. About six shapes for each gender. This would give all users a much better starting point when creating the shape they're aiming for, rather than wrestling against the poor settings we find in the current and past starter avatar shapes, or trying to take a thin, athletic shape and try to make it anything but.

I don't believe, however, that we need more sliders. Instead, we need better built-in proportion tools. Such as the ability to lock proportions within realistic human range (and unlock said proportions for exaggerated, or non-human avatars), guides that show how many heads tall our avatar is, how long our arms should be given our height.  

If LL ever decides to finally give us improved avatar meshes, I hopy they vastly improve the appearance editor, there's plenty of room for much needed improvement. How many people know that if you make a woman shape too much taller than 6' it becomes impossible to create proportional arms? That the arm and leg sliders are skewed to different extremes depending on whether you're using the male or female shapes? That "50" does not represent "average" on most of the sliders? Not many, I'd wager.



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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Height may be about preference. But proportions are about anatomy

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I'm gonna disagree that height is purely about preference, but I'll leave it at that unless someone really wants to start another height thread.

 

[Bree Giffen]

You're right. We just need a new body mesh. Which I doubt will happen as it may break all content related to our body mesh. Maybe the new mesh feature coming out (hopefully) will allow us to have a better proportioned avatar. I have found that the body thickness slider does help with some of the narrowness.

[Penny Patton]

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Bree Giffen wrote:

You're right. We just need a new body mesh. Which I doubt will happen as it may break all content related to our body mesh. Maybe the new mesh feature coming out (hopefully) will allow us to have a better proportioned avatar. I have found that the body thickness slider does help with some of the narrowness.

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We already have two body meshes, a male mesh and a female mesh. LL could simply add an additional male mesh and an additional female mesh. The new meshes might require new textures for skins, clothing, etcetera, but the old content would remain useable with the old mesh. No broken content.

 Mesh import will not help the situation much at all. It will be like having an all-prim body, with no ability to wear regular avatar clothing, skins, etcetera. Buying a new skin would mean buying the same mesh over again with another texture map. For clothing you'd be limited to clothing made specifically for that particular mesh.

[Melanie774 Kidd]

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Penny Patton wrote:

 Mesh import will not help the situation much at all. It will be like having an all-prim body, with no ability to wear regular avatar clothing, skins, etcetera. Buying a new skin would mean buying the same mesh over again with another texture map. For clothing you'd be limited to clothing made specifically for that particular mesh.

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Agreed. And we finally have our tattoo layers, our alpha layers, and our ability to wear up to five items on each layer; I want to continue using an LL avatar mesh to take advantage of these features instead of hiding it all in alpha and attaching a content creator's mesh av over it.

Really hoping LL will do a new av mesh!!!

[Baloo Uriza]

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Bree Giffen wrote:

Something always strikes me as unnatural when I look at avatars. I'm sure it's a combination of things. While we get constant reminders on height we rarely mention width. I think our avatar torsos are simply a little narrow and it does cause problems when adjusting other body parts. Thighs for instance. They seem way too skinny on men and women. Breasts and buttocks also suffer as the adjustment skiders make them grow front to back, up and down, but not side to side. What do you think? Are all avatars this way? Or are they ok?

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I think the

factor is in play to some degree, especially for humans.  Furries tend to suffer the problem in varying degrees largely out of a result of the current humanoid avatar mesh doesn't adapt well to comparatively heavyset or small species.