New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion

[M Peccable]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

 

Which only exists because LL do not provide robust platform statistics.

Which they absolutely should.

The very existence of the Grid Survey makes it easier for LL to avoid publishing actual platform data they have. The end result is less transparency, less accuracy and less platform development.

If you want to talk about the long-term, big picture, then you have a valid and debatable point.

If you want to wreck a lot of current content in SL, then lets orchestrate a knee-jerk immediate banning of all bots now.

There has to be a better solution than that.

[Love Zhaoying]

44 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

I'd rather you don't creatively cherry pick quotes from my post

You ARE new here on the Forum, I can tell! 
 

[bunboxmomo]

8 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

If you want to talk about the long-term, big picture, then you have a valid and debatable point.

If you want to wreck a lot of current content in SL, then lets orchestrate a knee-jerk immediate banning of all bots now.

There has to be a better solution than that.

I fear there is an assumption in belief that we develoeprs would just step in and make new different types of legos after someone came in and smashed the lego pieces and then laughed about how we're all bad actors anyway, just because we're scripters regardless of if there was any involvement in bot operations or not.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who's response would be "Lol make it yourself" and go on to more developer friendly platforms.

In fairness, I'm sure there would be those who step in to "make it themselves" until the next time the mask slips and this kind of attitude comes out and they bail too.

No one wants to make things for a platform where they feel they are viewed as shadey shadowy malicious figures just for making stuff, until they go out of their way to win the approval of their peers, instead of just being treated with good faith from the start.

I know I certainly don't.

I also think it's probably under-estimated just how many APIs are actively used in all kinds of scripts on a regular basis in cornerstone functionality of SL

Edited April 2, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[bunboxmomo]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

You ARE new here on the Forum, I can tell! 
 

Like I said, not a sockpuppet, and been around on SL far longer than my profile shows.
I am new to the forums though and asume too much faith in humanity at times. (I'll blame that on the counselling training)

(but that is quickly changing.)

[Love Zhaoying]

20 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

That goes entirely against Open Source as a concept that SL is built on.

Open Source doesn't mean, "do whatever you like". Limits, man, limits. Even programmers have a "code of ethics" (no matter what certain prople think).

There are also third-party libraries used that aren't "open source". (Whether plug-ins, the basic C Runtime, the JPEG2000 decoder...).

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

I am new to the forums though and asume too much faith in humanity at times. (I'll blame that on the counselling training)

(but that is quickly changing.)

Ok, so you're aware - we have um.."lively discussions".

[bunboxmomo]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Open Source doesn't mean, "do whatever you like". Limits, man, limits. Even programmers have a "code of ethics" (no matter what certain prople think).

There are also third-party libraries used that aren't "open source". (Whether plug-ins, the basic C Runtime, the JPEG2000 decoder...).

Absolutley and you've been following my posts long enough on this thread, you know I'm in support of that.

[Coffee Pancake]

Clean sweep.

Ban them all.

Direct outcry of what useful services we actually lost to LL to improve platform services.

 No platform was ever improved by the addition of bots. None. Especially not this one.

 

Lets start with LSL functions to invite people to groups, or perhaps a discussion about separating land management from social and promotional needs. Something that should have happened a decade ago but didn't because we have scripted agents plugging the biggest most obvious hole. Thanks Bots !

Everything a bot does should be something we can accomplish in world via script. Without exception.

 

Also, don't for one second think I'm opposed to more power to 3rd party developers or scripters, on the contrary. I would like to see SL regions grant their owners far broader abilities on par with game development platforms.

[bunboxmomo]

5 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Clean sweep.

Ban them all.

Direct outcry of what useful services we actually lost to LL to improve platform services.

 No platform was ever improved by the addition of bots. None. Especially not this one.

 

Lets start with LSL functions to invite people to groups, or perhaps a discussion about separating land management from social and promotional needs. Something that should have happened a decade ago but didn't because we have scripted agents plugging the biggest most obvious hole. Thanks Bots !

Everything a bot does should be something we can accomplish in world via script. Without exception.

 

Also, don't for one second think I'm opposed to more power to 3rd party developers or scripters, on the contrary. I would like to see SL regions grant their owners far broader abilities on par with game development platforms.

Surprisingly, we actually agree on this, but this has to be a smooth transition with redundant functionality for a period of time.

If you hard break everything, people aren't going to be inspired to make new things to replace it, they'll just go "oh sod this then".

Some will pick up that mantle, as triggered as I am right now by your attitude in how you've been towards me, I have to admit I would probably be one of them who would, but that kind of stance towards developers would not endear many and push even more away over time.

No one wants to feel like a persecuted class within a platform they love, and the way you're speaking right now, is really doing that.

(I'll be honest, I've been working VRC stuff for the first time in ages after being active in this thread. That's not a direct result, but I've found myself less drawn to SL by some of the things I've seen said about people here and I'm noticing it having an effect on where I spend my time. It's all unconcious processes, but I'm aware enough to notice it, and I'm sure this would be something other developers would feel too)

Edited April 2, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

No one wants to make things for a platform where they feel they are viewed as shadey shadowy malicious figures just for making stuff, until they go out of their way to win the approval of their peers, instead of just being treated with good faith from the start.

I definitely would not miss people with this attitude! We need honest developers who we can trust, to develop great things like the new "deny_bots" feature. The very future of Second Life may depend on it! This is why trusted TPV's often have their own improvements integrated into the official Second Life viewer, rather than random contributors. 

In order for someone to join the "trust club", that trust is earned. Treating developers with "good faith" is why exploits result in the need for things like the deny_bots feature. You won't find many Pollyanna's here about trust.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Love Zhaoying
. Not ,

[Coffee Pancake]

Of course you would.

So would every other active invested developer.

We would be out of automated group invites for a few whole days. Oh how terrible.

Hard break it, there will always be people eager to step up.

The churn is good for the platform. We don't have to like it.

 

[M Peccable]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Direct outcry of what useful services we actually lost to LL to improve platform services.

Wow. How sensitive you are to denying others of their "useful services". Some of those services are being depended upon a great deal more than you seem to be aware of.

And you seem to carry around with you quite a large sledgehammer.

Edited April 2, 2023 by M Peccable
typo

[M Peccable]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

In order for someone to join the "trust club", that trust is earned. Treating developers with "good faith" is why exploits result in the need for things like the deny_bots feature. You won't find many Pollyanna's here about trust.

Guilty until proven innocent.

[bunboxmomo]

Well then congratulations, you've successfully convinced me.

I've been in SL for 14 years, I've always advocated as a great way to learn how to code to non-coders, I've brought people into SL, I've run communities, I've built regions and I've always wanted to see ways SL could be made better for the platform and it's residents.

I was someone hopeful about where SL is going and enthusiastic and excited to see where the platform would go. I was happy to see the deny_bots flag, and I was hopeful to see more efforts like that.

But in the space of 2-3 days in this thread, I have become increasingly horrified with what I can only describe as a cult of hate towards anyone who holds any opinion other than total derision and contempt towards bot developers. I've seen that then spill out as it intensified over a series of days into developers in general. Even those who agree with you, but just not in the way you are 100% happy with.

I know this is only a slither of the actual population in SL and their views, but just seeing how much of it is here, is makign it very difficult to feel I want to do anything in SL.

Churn is a thing, but to celebrate and see it as a reason to justify egregiously unfair and spiteful attitudes towards other fellow residents, that just a creates a pit in my stomach, that I think I need to take a while to let pass if at all.

So I'm going to bounce out following this, maybe I'll get back into SL at some point or I'll keep my focus on other things.

But I have to say, these kinds of attitudes towards other people, it's horrible. Please in your future interactions with people, try be mindful that everyone is in SL because they love the platform, and while we all have different views and opinions on what's best for it, very few people other than those who are intentionally malicious, are good-intentioned and actually willing to talk about things if there is actual respect given back and forth.

I have some obligations I'll stick around for, but only really as much as I need to. Other than that, I'm taking a break.

Edited April 2, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Love Zhaoying]

11 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

Guilty until proven innocent.

Lol! I unhid your post out of curiousity. Thanks for the chuckle!

[M Peccable]

9 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

We would be out of automated group invites for a few whole days. Oh how terrible.

Hard break it, there will always be people eager to step up.

The churn is good for the platform. We don't have to like it.

 

A few days?

You are advocating the immediate removal of many services, and telling LL to step up to the plate and replace them.

A few days? They would not even be able to replace the group invite services in a few days, much less the 100's of others, many of those requiring platform changes on the scale that deny_bots at the parcel level would.

Please rejoin us in reality as soon as you can.

[M Peccable]

On 3/31/2023 at 11:23 AM, Love Zhaoying said:

This is just a first step. LL does and will listen to feedback, or we wouldn't have gotten this far. I wish you luck for a favorable outcome. 

Wow, your attitude has certainly changed. You wrote that to me. Oh well.

Don't worry. I am already in the process of tiering down.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, M Peccable said:

A few days?

 

If we had llGroupInvite(uuid user, uuid group role) at the same time, yes, it would be days .. maybe even hours before we were flooded with scripted integrations for stores to use.

Don't underestimate the speed at which a fresh demand can be met here.

Tenacity and competition are invigorating and infectious. SL desperately needs that far more than it needs bots.

 

 

[Dyna Mole]

Please remember that as tempting as it can be to use sarcasm or take a personal swipe during a heated discussion, it can easily get out of hand. If you find yourself tempted, step back from the keyboard. Healthy discussion is always welcome. 

[M Peccable]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

If we had llGroupInvite(uuid user, uuid group role)

But we don't have that. Even if LL rushed it out the door it would be weeks. You know that as well as I do.

So let's let LL add those functions before we wreck all of those services.

[bunboxmomo]

1 minute ago, Dyna Mole said:

Please remember that as tempting as it can be to use sarcasm or take a personal swipe during a heated discussion, it can easily get out of hand. If you find yourself tempted, step back from the keyboard. Healthy discussion is always welcome. 

Thank you, it's been happening a lot in this thread.

[Love Zhaoying]

For those who question why, in addition to deny_bots-type features, we may need a reminder that due to "trust issues" we have become used to:

- Signed code

- Certificates for websites 

- Anti-virus and Malware scanners 

- Popup and Ad-blockers

- Email checkers for Spam, spoofing, phishing emails 

..and much, much, more.

We need features like "deny_bots" NOT because programmers are "guilty until proven innocent", but because this is 2023, not 1980, and everyone should know the basics of security and privacy - and if they don't, these and other tools help protect them from "bad actors".

You never know who is "good" or "bad", friend or foe on the internet. There is no reason to take someone at their word, unless you and they are in the same "club" and use similar protections. Anyone could give you a "Trojan" of one kind or other, either wittingly or unwittingly.

These are all reasons why features like "deny_bots" are good. 

[Coffee Pancake]

4 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

But we don't have that. Even if LL rushed it out the door it would be weeks. You know that as well as I do.

So let's let LL add those functions before we wreck all of those services.

I would rather we toss those services and then have a decent discussion about what would be needed to replace them.

SL groups are not fit for purpose. They have never been for for purpose.

Rip the bandaid off, starting with all the 3rd party bots.

[Love Zhaoying]

13 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

Wow, your attitude has certainly changed. You wrote that to me. Oh well.

Don't worry. I am already in the process of tiering down.

Thank you for your feedback. No sarcasm, I find yours and everyone's contributions valuable. (Some posts become hidden to "prevent negative reactions".)

[M Peccable]

10 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I would rather we toss those services and then have a decent discussion about what would be needed to replace them.

SL groups are not fit for purpose. They have never been for for purpose.

Rip the bandaid off, starting with all the 3rd party bots.

Are you aware that some of the things that would break are things people depend on for RL income? You can say that that income has never been guaranteed, which is true, but breaking them all at once when there are ways to ease into it unnecessarily maximizes the pain, and the loss of some residents.

You say bots are never good. I say knee-jerk, heavy-handed reactions are never good. 

Edited April 2, 2023 by M Peccable