Henri Beauchamp Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, Gavin Hird said: Why do you even make a macOS version of your viewer Henri? I don't... Several macOS users (see the credits in the viewer About floater) have been providing and provide macOS builds of my viewer, and they also contributed some necessary changes to keep it compiling with Xcode successive versions. This said macOS compatibility is not a valid constraint/criteria for me (if at some point, my viewer stops to work under macOS, well.. so be it !). But frankly, running a viewer (any TPVs and SL viewers alike) under macOS is simply a loss of time: viewers are waaaaay faster when running under Linux, or even (horror !) under Windoze... Edited June 8, 2023 by Henri Beauchamp 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 6 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said: I don't... Several macOS users (see the credits in the viewer About floater) have been providing and provide macOS builds of my viewer, and they also contributed some necessary changes to keep it compiling with Xcode successive versions. This said macOS compatibility is not a valid constraint/criteria for me (if at some point, my viewer stops to work under macOS, well.. so be it !). But frankly, running a viewer (any TPVs and SL viewers alike) under macOS is simply a loss of time: viewers are waaaaay faster when running under Linux, or even (horror !) under Windoze... So what you essentially say is for Linden Labs to give up their entire business sans the 0.5% of users that fall in line with your sensibilities. Brilliant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Beauchamp Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Gavin Hird said: So what you essentially say is for Linden Labs to give up their entire business sans the 0.5% of users that fall in line with your sensibilities. Brilliant! I did not say this, but what I do say, however, is that I do not personally care the least about macOS... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Henri Beauchamp said: I did not say this, but what I do say, however, is that I do not personally care the least about macOS... Then you should refrain from having and voicing any opinions on how these users interact with Linden Lab's product. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 On intel Apple computers. ALL INTEL APPLE COMPUTERS The same viewer code compiled for windows, running on the exact same machine, outperforms the mac version by a solid 20% Every time. At the moment, the only Mac viewers are running under Rosetta. That will not change for quite some time, and even once we get to a native viewer, it will be vulkan with a translation layer, not Metal .. so it will still under-perform. I don't see the games industry falling over themselves for make native ports, we barely get native ports for the PC. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: On intel Apple computers. ALL INTEL APPLE COMPUTERS The same viewer code compiled for windows, running on the exact same machine, outperforms the mac version by a solid 20% Every time. The main reason for this is that macOS use double buffered output to the screen, where the desktop compositor add another pass with some overhead before the viewer output is sent to the screen. In Windows the viewer can draw to the screen in a single pass. Combine that with Apple's mediocre GPUs and you have less performance. From a business standpoint that is not so important, in that all Mac users will suffer the same performance penalty, and the likelihood of these users switching platform to use SecondLife is virtually non existent. What is important is to offer these users the best performance possible on the platform they already have chosen. – That is if you want them as your customers of course. Edited June 8, 2023 by Gavin Hird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidventer Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 https://developer.apple.com/wwdc23/10123 https://developer.apple.com/wwdc23/10124 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 9 minutes ago, Gavin Hird said: the likelihood of these users switching platform to use SecondLife is virtually non existent. It's been out experience as TPV devs that they absolutely do build gaming PC's to run SL and other games. Our Apple viewer is well received, but we have real trouble maintaining a core group of alpha testers who will actually use the viewer on Apple hardware and put some hours in. They still use our software but they switch platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 13 minutes ago, davidventer said: https://developer.apple.com/wwdc23/10123 https://developer.apple.com/wwdc23/10124 It does not really help because the tools are made for DirectX12 or lower games, while the viewer is OpenGL based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said: It's been out experience as TPV devs that they absolutely do build gaming PC's to run SL and other games. Our Apple viewer is well received, but we have real trouble maintaining a core group of alpha testers who will actually use the viewer on Apple hardware and put some hours in. They still use our software but they switch platform. Of the hundreds of millions of macOS users, a small fraction may switch platform. You cannot base your business model on that. The other thing is that if LL invested in doing a proper port of the viewer, it will not only run on macOS, but also iOS and iPadOS. But again it is their business. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 14 minutes ago, Gavin Hird said: You cannot base your business model on that. Yet that is exactly the model the gaming industry is going with and doing just fine. They target consoles, do mediocre PC ports, and the froth off the top maybe gets Mac port. Apple just made a big deal about death stranding .. you know, that game so garbage that sold so poorly, Epic literally gave everyone and their mum a copy for free. Go on, pay full AAA release price for it just so you can feel smug that it's native. No one is hanging around looking forward to gaming on a Mac when they could be gaming on anything else for a fraction of the price. Especially when the library is extremely shallow, expensive and poorly performing. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardy Lay Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 53 minutes ago, Gavin Hird said: In Windows the viewer can draw to the screen in a single pass. @Gavin Hird This is no longer true. Desktop composition has been available with Windows 7 and Vista and has been mandatory since Windows 8. You will have to look elsewhere for your performance deviations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 2 minutes ago, Ardy Lay said: @Gavin Hird This is no longer true. Desktop composition has been available with Windows 7 and Vista and has been mandatory since Windows 8. You will have to look elsewhere for your performance deviations. All right. But in any case Apple is running the compositor at 60 fps on more or less all machines and displays, unless on a few models where it can slow it down to 2 fps or go up to 120 fps. The viewer code cannot support any of that because of the way it is built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 12 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: Yet that is exactly the model ... Make up your mind what it is. 😀 In any case the number of Mac users switching to Windows or gettin an additional PC for gaming is minute. Most Mac users use Macs because they want nothing to do with Windows and Microsoft. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathrine Jansma Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 At least while Apple still shipped x86 hardware, the MBPs were quite popular as company paid nice notebooks, even when the job needed Windows stuff. Right now its easier to rationalize some fat NVDIA 4090 equipped windows laptop "for AI stuff..." in the workplace. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 2 hours ago, Gavin Hird said: Most Mac users use Macs because they want nothing to do with Windows and Microsoft. You're thinking of Linux users. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said: You're thinking of Linux users. I don't. I have worked in Apple. I know what their users think about Microsoft and Windows. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Beauchamp Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Gavin Hird said: I have worked in Apple. In Apple ?... Really ?... Are you a worm ? 😜 If you worked for Apple, then it explains quite well your fanaticism... I am sorry, but Apple is no better (and actually worst) than Micro$oft about privacy. Geez, I had a hard time blocking every hidden request from my Hackintosh VM (which I use exclusively to check that my viewer still compiles for Macs) to Apple ”services” (spying tools, ads pushes and other annoyances and privacy breaches); it was harder than for Windoze 11 (which sucks rocks as well about privacy, but is much easier to ”convince” to just stop phoning home). Apple also got closed hardware, with voluntary measures to prevent changing parts for non-Apple ones (forget about adding RAM to a M1/M2 Mac, for example: it's simply impossible 😲 ), or to opt to buy ”compatible” parts instead of Apple over priced ones. Then, there is macOS itself, and the fact it is compatible with nothing out of Apple stuff (and becomes even less compatible as time passes), with proprietary APIs that only impair portability of programs written for other OSes (e.g. OpenGL, and even Vulkan). Special mention as well, about the total lack of documentation about Apple hardware, forcing Open Source developers to spend their time reverse-engineering everything. Finally Apple is for the rich (overpriced, fragile hardware) and the snobs who prefer to buy the brand than to buy more performant hardware for the same amount of money. Oh, and I almost forgot... Apple is the super champion to evade taxes !... When they will pay the taxes they owe to my country (and to the EU in general), then, I will, perhaps, consider investing some of my free time (like in free beer) in supporting Apple stuff... Till then, they will not get a single cent from me ! Edited June 9, 2023 by Henri Beauchamp 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Beauchamp Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 8 hours ago, Gavin Hird said: Then you should refrain from having and voicing any opinions on how these users interact with Linden Lab's product. 🤪 I will voice my opinion without asking your permission... ever ! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 5 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said: In Apple ?... Really ?... Are you a worm ? 😜 If you worked for Apple, then it explains quite well your fanaticism... I am sorry, but Apple is no better (and actually worst) than Micro$oft about privacy. Geez, I had a hard time blocking every hidden request from my Hackintosh VM (which I use exclusively to check that my viewer still compiles for Macs) to Apple ”services” (spying tools, ads pushes and other annoyances and privacy breaches); it was harder than for Windoze 11 (which sucks rocks as well about privacy, but is much easier to ”convince” to just stop phoning home). Apple also got closed hardware, with voluntary measures to prevent changing parts for non-Apple ones (forget about adding RAM to a M1/M2 Mac, for example: it's simply impossible 😲 ), or to opt to buy ”compatible” parts instead of Apple over priced ones. Then, there is macOS itself, and the fact it is compatible with nothing out of Apple stuff (and becomes even less compatible as time passes), with proprietary APIs that only impair portability of programs written for other OSes (e.g. OpenGL, and even Vulkan). Special mention as well, about the total lack of documentation about Apple hardware, forcing Open Source developers to spend their time reverse-engineering everything. Finally Apple is for the rich (overpriced, fragile hardware) and the snobs who prefer to buy the brand than to buy more performant hardware for the same amount of money. Oh, and I almost forgot... Apple is the super champion to evade taxes !... When they will pay the taxes they owe to my country (and to the EU in general), then, I will, perhaps, consider investing some of my free time (like in free beer) in supporting Apple stuff... Till then, they will not get a single cent from me ! lmao - spit it out man 🤣 if you were not that cheap, Little Snitch would have saved you most of the trouble to block the “spyware” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 5 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said: 🤪 I will voice my opinion without asking your permission... ever ! It is not about permission, but about courtesy. Billions of people have deliberately chosen to be Apple's customers and part of their ecosystem. What you are advocating is for them to switch platform, because their choices are not to your liking or approval. Knowing they won't switch platform, you are in essence telling them to leave SecondLife; telling them to stop being customers of Linden Lab. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Beauchamp Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 2 hours ago, Gavin Hird said: It is not about permission, but about courtesy. Courtesy starts with accepting others' opinions and hearing their arguments, instead of getting them to shut up and keep quiet (which is called censorship). 'nuff said, and end of the discussion for me since arguing with you seems totally pointless anyway. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 7 hours ago, Gavin Hird said: Billions of people have deliberately chosen to be Apple's customers.... Might wanna cite your sources on that one .. billions of people .. billions of actual individual customers .. really. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aishagain Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 (edited) Oy vey, enough, Gavin! Edited June 9, 2023 by Aishagain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity Blakewell Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 Enough to all of you! I doubt your language at this point is going to convince anyone! I am getting perfectly acceptable performance on my M1 MacBook Air with only 8gb ram. That's all I"m interested in. If some individuals/companies don't want to invest in making their viewer available for Macs, I will use someone else's. If I am completely cut off, I'll ditch SL, even though I don't want to. But given that an iOS version is coming, there may be another way back into MacOS. I am not going to buy a high end Windows gaming machine, especially not now that I have experienced Windows 11 with a forced upgrade at work (I don't dis anyone who prefers Windows, but personally I can't stand how they redo the UI to accomplish the most common tasks with every major upgrade). But let's face it, there are other reasons why I will not put out the money to get a Windows gaming box right now. Not with looking at replacing a car in the near future which, even with looking at small late-model used cars with 60,000 miles is inching towards 20 grand. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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