can they forfeit my rental?

[fabiansongs]

8 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

We only hear one side of the story.
Let's keep that in mind.
And wasn't naming and shaming a thingy in the rules of these forums?

oh if you are interested to hear both sides, pm me and I back it up with the conversation I have with [ESTATE NAME REMOVED]. I will even give you the name of the avatar.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Dakota Linden
[Moderator Edit: Identifying Estate Name Removed]

[Scylla Rhiadra]

17 minutes ago, fabiansongs said:

It makes sense， Scylla, to pay tiers via marketplace.

I'm far from convinced this would make a difference, as people get ripped off on the MP all the time, and very seldom have any sort of recourse.

But it would at least produce a clearer paper trail.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

17 minutes ago, fabiansongs said:

oh if you are interested to hear both sides, pm me and I back it up with the conversation I have with [ESTATE NAME REMOVED]. I will even give you the name of the avatar.

Fabian, do not do this. It's a clear violation of the ToS, and there's every chance you'll get disciplined for it.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Dakota Linden
[Moderator Edit: Identifying Estate Name Removed]

[Lindal Kidd]

1 minute ago, Rolig Loon said:

From LL's perspective, rental is a handshake agreement.

And here's a very key point.  LL has a good legal department, and they understand this very, very clearly.

I used to be involved in soliciting and awarding some very large contracts, and had to learn something about contract law. For a contract to even exist, there must be (among other things) two responsible parties and the exchange of something of value. From a real life perspective, neither of these exist in the case of an SL "contract". Both parties are anonymous, so there's no way to determine if they are "responsible" in the legal sense of that term. And by LL's own definition, the Linden Dollar is merely a token, having no value.

This is why I advise people who are contemplating shelling out large amounts of money for custom work, or entering into a partnership in an SL business, to make contact with the other party in real life and draw up an actual, binding, real life agreement. (And, by the way, that's the only way Modulated is going to get what they want in terms of a more just world.)

[fabiansongs]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Fabian, do not do this. It's a clear violation of the ToS, and there's every chance you'll get disciplined for it.

if only there is a better way to let people see the truth. But you are right to Scylla.

[Luna Bliss]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What interests me are the broader implications of this. Whether or not the OP is telling the truth is, in that sense, truly irrelevant, as you suggest: this could happen, under the current system, just exactly as they are describing it. And I'll guarantee that it does happen.

The system sucks.

We'd all probably have to pay more for policing these matters though. Do you think it'd be worth it?   I feel it might be.

[fabiansongs]

1 minute ago, Lindal Kidd said:

And here's a very key point.  LL has a good legal department, and they understand this very, very clearly.

I used to be involved in soliciting and awarding some very large contracts, and had to learn something about contract law. For a contract to even exist, there must be (among other things) two responsible parties and the exchange of something of value. From a real life perspective, neither of these exist in the case of an SL "contract". Both parties are anonymous, so there's no way to determine if they are "responsible" in the legal sense of that term. And by LL's own definition, the Linden Dollar is merely a token, having no value.

This is why I advise people who are contemplating shelling out large amounts of money for custom work, or entering into a partnership in an SL business, to make contact with the other party in real life and draw up an actual, binding, real life agreement. (And, by the way, that's the only way Modulated is going to get what they want in terms of a more just world.)

very valid advice, Linda. 

 

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Fabian, do not do this. It's a clear violation of the ToS, and there's every chance you'll get disciplined for it.

 

2 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

And here's a very key point.  LL has a good legal department, and they understand this very, very clearly.

I used to be involved in soliciting and awarding some very large contracts, and had to learn something about contract law. For a contract to even exist, there must be (among other things) two responsible parties and the exchange of something of value. From a real life perspective, neither of these exist in the case of an SL "contract". Both parties are anonymous, so there's no way to determine if they are "responsible" in the legal sense of that term. And by LL's own definition, the Linden Dollar is merely a token, having no value.

This is why I advise people who are contemplating shelling out large amounts of money for custom work, or entering into a partnership in an SL business, to make contact with the other party in real life and draw up an actual, binding, real life agreement. (And, by the way, that's the only way Modulated is going to get what they want in terms of a more just world.)

very good advice, Linda. 

[animats]

3 hours ago, Modulated said:

Fair point, but I can contact the companies I do business with for possible solutions, and not just dealing with someone who hides behind an avatar doing business who never answers you or just doesn't care and steals your money.  Big difference there.

If you're in California, or sell to people in California, you cannot operate an online business anonymously. California Business and Professions Code section 17358:

(d) A vendor conducting business through the Internet or any other electronic means of communication shall do all of the following when the transaction involves a buyer located in this state:

(1) Before accepting any payment or processing any debit or credit charge or funds transfer, the vendor shall disclose to the buyer in writing or by electronic means of communication, such as e-mail or an on-screen notice, the vendor's return and refund policy, the legal name under which the business is conducted and, except as provided in paragraph (3), the complete street address from which the business is actually conducted.

(g) Any violation of the provisions of this section is a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six months, by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.

(The "Except as provided in paragraph 3" rule allows you to use a post office box as an address, but you have to do some extra paperwork so you can be sued through your PO box.)

The European Union has a similar rule.

The criminal part of this is sometimes enforced in fraud cases, It gives prosecutors an instant win against anonymous fraudsters who have been located. It's also helpful when you need the identity of a business from some service provider.

Once you get above the flea-market level of business, you need to get into compliance.

[fabiansongs]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Fabian, do not do this. It's a clear violation of the ToS, and there's every chance you'll get disciplined for it.

you're right Linda.. I might just walk into a trap.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Lindal Kidd said:

And here's a very key point.  LL has a good legal department, and they understand this very, very clearly.

I used to be involved in soliciting and awarding some very large contracts, and had to learn something about contract law. For a contract to even exist, there must be (among other things) two responsible parties and the exchange of something of value. From a real life perspective, neither of these exist in the case of an SL "contract". Both parties are anonymous, so there's no way to determine if they are "responsible" in the legal sense of that term. And by LL's own definition, the Linden Dollar is merely a token, having no value.

This is why I advise people who are contemplating shelling out large amounts of money for custom work, or entering into a partnership in an SL business, to make contact with the other party in real life and draw up an actual, binding, real life agreement. (And, by the way, that's the only way Modulated is going to get what they want in terms of a more just world.)

Yes, definitely.

There are a number of separate issues that are being discussed here.

1) Does the landlord have the "right" (in practical terms, the absolute power) to do what they apparently did here? We're all in agreement that, yes, they do.

2) Does the tenant have any kind of recourse? Again, we're all in agreement here: almost certainly not, although they can try such things as ARs or tickets.

3) Was it ethical -- i.e., morally "right" to pocket L$19000 of pre-paid rent upon eviction? Well, I've seen a few people tentatively suggest that they think it is, but I find that position ethically indefensible myself.

4) Does the current system suck? Well, that's my position. It's a crappy, system that was broken from the moment they set it up, and it affords endless opportunities for graft and generally s****y behaviour.

 

There's a sort of side issue, which is the implication that we don't have all the facts here, and with that I agree. We're not in any position to judge this particular, individual case. Which is, again, why there should be some sort of simple mechanism in place to do so.

[fabiansongs]

17 minutes ago, fabiansongs said:

oh if you are interested to hear both sides, pm me and I back it up with the conversation I have with [ESTATE NAME REMOVED]. I will even give you the name of the avatar.

But that would violate the regulation. But I have told you the reason they evicted and I spoke out loud who took my 19000.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Dakota Linden
[Moderator Edit: Identifying Estate Name Removed]

[fabiansongs]

7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yes, definitely.

There are a number of separate issues that are being discussed here.

1) Does the landlord have the "right" (in practical terms, the absolute power) to do what they apparently did here? We're all in agreement that, yes, they do.

2) Does the tenant have any kind of recourse? Again, we're all in agreement here: almost certainly not, although they can try such things as ARs or tickets.

3) Was it ethical -- i.e., morally "right" to pocket L$19000 of pre-paid rent upon eviction? Well, I've seen a few people tentatively suggest that they think it is, but I find that position ethically indefensible myself.

4) Does the current system suck? Well, that's my position. It's a crappy, system that was broken from the moment they set it up, and it affords endless opportunities for graft and generally s****y behaviour.

 

There's a sort of side issue, which is the implication that we don't have all the facts here, and with that I agree. We're not in any position to judge this particular, individual case. Which is, again, why there should be some sort of simple mechanism in place to do so.

Your points are very valid here. It's all about trust. Right now I'm saying they [ESTATE NAME REMOVED] took my 19000 away right after I was evicted. It was the Linden I pay them to offset my future rental. I have my transaction history ready here if they deny.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Dakota Linden
[Moderator Edit: Identifying Estate Name Removed]

[Silent Mistwalker]

[ESTATE NAME REMOVED]

Link removed. 😋

Edited July 20, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker
[Moderator Edit: Identifying Estate Name Removed]

[Theresa Tennyson]

50 minutes ago, fabiansongs said:

Just tell me big shot,

Sometimes people tell more than one side of a story without even trying.

[fabiansongs]

7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yes, definitely.

There are a number of separate issues that are being discussed here.

1) Does the landlord have the "right" (in practical terms, the absolute power) to do what they apparently did here? We're all in agreement that, yes, they do.

2) Does the tenant have any kind of recourse? Again, we're all in agreement here: almost certainly not, although they can try such things as ARs or tickets.

3) Was it ethical -- i.e., morally "right" to pocket L$19000 of pre-paid rent upon eviction? Well, I've seen a few people tentatively suggest that they think it is, but I find that position ethically indefensible myself.

4) Does the current system suck? Well, that's my position. It's a crappy, system that was broken from the moment they set it up, and it affords endless opportunities for graft and generally s****y behaviour.

 

There's a sort of side issue, which is the implication that we don't have all the facts here, and with that I agree. We're not in any position to judge this particular, individual case. Which is, again, why there should be some sort of simple mechanism in place to do so.

I have lodged a complain with Linden Lab within days my money was confiscated. I didn't even get a reply. 

And I brought this matter up again few days ago, they told me that they are only dealing with abuses arising out of marketplace. So if they have a strong legal department, is not for our benefits.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

12 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

We'd all probably have to pay more for policing these matters though. Do you think it'd be worth it?   I feel it might be.

In SL terms, maybe not. We're a very small pond in real terms.

But Rosedale has gone on a fair bit elsewhere about "governance" in virtual worlds, and the implication has often been that SL has gotten it more or less "right."

I think I'd beg to differ. The real dollar amount of scams and shady dealings in SL is, in a global sense, pretty small potatoes, but translate that into the terms of a really extensive metaverse, and we could be talking about many millions of dollars, a crisis of confidence in the system, and so forth.

I don't think that some simple regulations would require that extra time and effort. How about an addition to the ToS that, for instance, no more than one week's worth of rent can be forfeited upon breaking of a land covenant or rental agreement? And maybe even a very simple web page with a database backend into which landlords would enter a few pertinent details upon seizing that one week's worth of rent? It need only include the date of termination of the "contract," the weekly rent charged, and the amount forfeited. No live staff need be involved at all unless there was an AR or ticket alleging the breaking of that portion of the ToS: the database would provide the information governance would need to almost immediately settle the issue.

[Lindal Kidd]

16 minutes ago, animats said:

 Before accepting any payment or processing any debit or credit charge or funds transfer, the vendor shall disclose

I expect this is the bit that keeps thousands of SL businesses from getting hit with fines and penalties from the Late Great State of California. There's no "debit or credit charge or funds transfer."

[Innula Zenovka]

6 minutes ago, fabiansongs said:

I have lodged a complain with Linden Lab within days my money was confiscated. I didn't even get a reply. 

And I brought this matter up again few days ago, they told me that they are only dealing with abuses arising out of marketplace. So if they have a strong legal department, is not for our benefits.

While I sympathise with you on a personal level, LL's position on this always been clear, and you agreed to it when you agreed to the T.o.S when creating your account.

 

[fabiansongs]

20 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

While I sympathise with you on a personal level, LL's position on this always been clear, and you agreed to it when you agreed to the T.o.S when creating your account.

 

Thank you Innula. Paying advance is a big big mistake.

[fabiansongs]

Just now, fabiansongs said:

Thank you Innula. Paying advance is a big big mistake.

But I'm appalled to know that tenants are not protected at all.

[Silent Mistwalker]

Always read the fine print.

[fabiansongs]

12 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Have you tried asking them for the money back?

Yes I have, before I lodged as report with Linden lab, which had not replied me..

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, fabiansongs said:

But I'm appalled to know that tenants are not protected at all.

Welcome to the world of unregulated free market capitalism.

 

[fabiansongs]

I hope this will not be exemplary to all the capitalists in RL. hahahaha!

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

7 minutes ago, fabiansongs said:

But I'm appalled to know that tenants are not protected at all.

Welcome to the world of unregulated free market capitalism.

Sounds like the boat ride to hell.