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Only the English view of the market listing gets updated?


Doc Carling
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Hi. I'm used to view the market in English. Today I looked at my listings in other languages and noticed, they are partly totally different from the English version. A mess of outdated and incorrect informations.  Seems when I made corrections or updates in the past they get displayed only in the English view. Did I miss to configure something?

To avoid misunderstandings. I don't expect that my English text gets translated into other languages. But the English text should be the same no matter in what language a vistior views the market place, shouldn't it?

Edited by Doc Carling
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Hi. Thanks for your response. :) What do you mean? I write my listings in English. And so they are displayed in other language views also. That is ok. But you say corrections on the listing don't get displayed automatically? It must be done manually in each available language view? I have over 100 items listed. If I made bulk changes I have to post them 6 times? That's the number auf languages in the menu. Sorry, nothing can be more complicate, time consuming and impractical than that? Or is there a trick that I don't know?  I even think that is impossible. I mean when I turn to Japanese view for example. I don't understand Japanese and have no idea how to use the listing form. Same with the other languages.

Edited by Doc Carling
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39 minutes ago, Doc Carling said:

Hi. Thanks for your response. :) What do you mean? I write my listings in English. And so they are displayed in other language views also. That is ok. But you say corrections on the listing don't get displayed automatically? It must be done manually in each available language view? I have over 100 items listed. If I made bulk changes I have to post them 6 times? That's the number auf languages in the menu. Sorry, nothing can be more complicate, time consuming and impractical than that? Or is there a trick that I don't know? 

When you create a new listing, the description is copied for all languages (unless you wrote something in them).

When you edit the listing, the changes you make to the English part won't be copied again, it seems.

After updating the item description, you should copy all of the text and paste it into the other language tabs.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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Hi. :) Bad news indeed. With language tabs you mean the listing forms? I just took a look at the Japanese one. It's all in Japanese of course. Ok, I know where to fill in the description and other details. But still,  it can't be intended that English merchants have to know how to use Japanese forms or forms in any other language they don't speak. Japanese and other merchants in reverse either.

And each time, for each little edit I have to do the same 6 times (languages)? If I change for example 20 prices. That would mean I have 120 listings to change. Wow.

Edited by Doc Carling
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2 minutes ago, Doc Carling said:

Hi. :) Bad news indeed. With language tabs you mean the listing forms? I just took a look at the Japanese one. It's all in Japanese of course. Ok, I know where to fill in the description and other details. But still,  it can't be intended that English merchants have to know how to use Japanese forms or forms in any other language they don't speak.

And each time, for each little edit I have to do the same 6 times (languages)? If I change for example 20 prices. That would mean I have 120 listings to change. Wow.

No. Just click on these tabs:

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You don't have to change the whole site's language to Japanese and that wouldn't fix anything either.

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Ah, yes. Thanks a lot. That is the trick. I admit I never paid attention to these tabs. And the form can be filled with the quick fill button. Still, why not a button copy changes to all tabs? I have about 150 items listed and must update all. But ok, one can't have it all. Again, many thanks. :)

Correction. Aeems the quick fill in button doesn't work in the other language tabs. It works in the English tab only.

 

Edited by Doc Carling
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1 hour ago, Doc Carling said:

Still, why not a button copy changes to all tabs?

Probably because the entire listing entry form was designed and programmed in half an hour by a Linden struggling with hangover from a week long binge and a new programming language he didn't know.

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Actually there is something borked with the lanquage functionality.

I have found recently that when I fill out the complete form in English then save, the whole English listing is copied into all five of the other languages fields - apart from the title. If I then delete the product features, the extended description and the keywords from the form for each of the  languages then save again. When I return to edit mode all my original English has been reduplicated in all the language fields. Changing text in the other language fields and saving is not working. The original text from English section comes back overwriting any changes I made.

But it's not consistent either. Things go really wonky when I use the Quick Fill so the glitches are not reliable either.

I used to be meticulous about placing translated versions but I don't bother anymore because over the years the alternative language feature has been rather buggy. 

I would at one time have been inclined to raise a Jira but I don't anymore because a particularly grumpy Linden banned me from the Jira because I had the temerity to speak truth to power.

^L^

 

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Lol ChinRey

I did this. I correct the text in the English tab. Then I switched to another language tab. Let's say Japanese. I used the quick fill button. Without result. I think it filled the English tab again.  I didn't start to edit the other language tabs manually yet. With over 150 items and 6 tabs it will be a hell of a job. I'm reflecting about, if I do it at all.  I mean Lasher says changing text in the other language fields and saving is not working. I'm sorry to hear that Linden banned your from the Jira. You say you don't care the translated versions anymore. But when you updated your English listings a few times, you have there a mess of wrong informations also. Does none of your non-English visitors or customers complain about it? Or flag items?

Update: The support told me to delete all details from the other language tabs. They will be automatically updated after that with the actual details in the English tab. That works. Still a hell of a job, but at least I have nothing to type in.

 

Edited by Doc Carling
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33 minutes ago, Lasher Oh said:

Actually there is something borked with the lanquage functionality.

See my post right above yours for the full explanation. :P

I wish I was just joking but unfortunately I'm not (apart from the hangover part of course). I'm not saying the Linden who created the merchants' front for MP was incompetent or anything like that but they were certainly way out of their field of expertise with little or no understanding of the task. UI design, database programming and web design/programming are all specialized fields in software development and not something you can expect a "general programmer" to handle very well.

The "new programming language" point is a fact too. LL decided to base MP on Ruby on Rails, a standard web application framework coded in Ruby. None of the LL programmers had ever written in RUby before and it is actually quite different from the C++/C#/Java style languages they are familiar with. if you go to the Ruby on Rails support forum and browse back a few years, you'll find multiple posts from a Linden programmer asking for help on basic newbie issues at the same time that he was busy developing the MP code.

The way the language fields are handled, is only one of numerous newbie mistakes in the merchants' front end. The correct solution in this particular case would be to add an if condition that automatically substituted the English text for any empty language fields on the fly. I can't imagine that it would even occur to a qualified web designer to do it any other way.

I know @Dakota Linden and @Oz Linden have told us to file JIRAs about it, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if they do it again in this thread. But this is not a topic for JIRAs. It's neitehr isolated bugs or feature requests, it's all about fundamental design flaws and mistakes. If LL has somebody with the neccessary web design qualifications among their staff, they don't need any feedback from users for this. That person would spot the mistakes right away. If they don't, a JIRA wouldn't be enough. It would take a 50+ page consultant report/tutorial that somebody would have to write (that's paid work, not something you do in half an hour of your spare time) and somebody at LL would have to read, study and learn.

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I don't know much about the Linden staff's programming abilities. Mine are rather basic. But my first thought was such a button can't take more than a line of code. When the new listing gets automatically applied to all language tabs, why should corrections and updates not? It is the same action, isn't it?

I'm updating the language tabs by deleting unwanted details now.  But I find that a very unsatisfying solution. I have to click each single item, then to click on the language tabs one by one. And each time after I updated one tab it doesn't return to the item listing, but to the listing page. So I have to click the item again. And that 6 times (English listing including).  In my opinion this is already nerving, if one has only a small number of items to update.

No, I must correct myself. I can delete all tabs at once. That saves some time, admitted.

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34 minutes ago, Doc Carling said:

I don't know much about the Linden staff's programming abilities. Mine are rather basic. But my first thought was such a button can't take more than a line of code. When the new listing gets automatically applied to all language tabs, why should corrections and updates not? It is the same action, isn't it?

Well, they forgot to add code to check for updates. It would be tricky to do anyway since the software won't know if you really want to apply the changes to all fields.

You don't really need any programming skills to figure this out, a little bit of common sense is enough.

The challenge is that the text for each language is stored in a separate field in the database and you don't want anybody to see blank descriptions or keyword fields. In theory there are four possible solutions:

Assign one field as a "master field" and allow the others to be empty. If the code displaying the page encounters an empty field, it simply looks for the "master field" instead. I do insist that is the only reasonable solution; it reduces the size of the database, it makes sure everything is up to date and it doesn't interfere with any actual content you've added to the other language field.

Assign one field as a "master field" and copy and paste the text from that into any empty fields. This is the LL went for. In addition tot he update headache this thread is about, it also causes an unneccessary bloating of the database size. It's not a good solution at all.

Assign one field as a "master field" and copy and paste the text from that into all the other fields whenever it is updated. Obviously totally pointless but it woldn't surprise me at all if there are applications out there that do exactly that. 😉

Assign one field as a "master field" and copy and paste the text from that into any empty fields, then try to figure out which changes to the master field should also be applied to the others. A very complicated solution and Murphy's law comes into full force: changes that shouldn't be applied to the other fields will be and changes that should be won't.

---

It didn't occur to me until now how good an illustration those language fields are for the fundamental problem that infuses everything at the MP merchants' front end. I've tried to explain this to various Lindens several times through other examples but never ever managed to break through. It's not ebcause they are stupid or unwilling to listen or anything like that. It's jsut that they don't have the frame of reference to grasp the topic. This example should be clear enough even a Linden can udnerstand it though and I do know that at least one of them will read this post. Let's see if she'll actually reply.

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imagine if you have 1200+ items in your store (like i do)... 😠

i am very very sorry to all my German, French, Spanish etc customers that will have to do with old and outdated text in the descriptions but life is too short for this amount of useless and dumb work that all could have been avoided, had Lindens done their job properly. They are very keen on increasing their MP fees however, and this is what us merchants get in return for it???

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28 minutes ago, Elvina Ewing said:

They are very keen on increasing their MP fees however, and this is what us merchants get in return for it???

But... but... Ebbe himself told us "some people" have it far too easy in Second Life.

Seriously, the MP merchants' front is never going to be fixed of course. That would be way beyond LL's abilities.

Still, it would be nice to get some reply from LL on this. Preferably a proper answer but even the regular non-answer would be ... quite telling.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 3/30/2020 at 4:04 PM, Doc Carling said:

Lol ChinRey

I did this. I correct the text in the English tab. Then I switched to another language tab. Let's say Japanese. I used the quick fill button. Without result. I think it filled the English tab again.  I didn't start to edit the other language tabs manually yet. With over 150 items and 6 tabs it will be a hell of a job. I'm reflecting about, if I do it at all.  I mean Lasher says changing text in the other language fields and saving is not working. I'm sorry to hear that Linden banned your from the Jira. You say you don't care the translated versions anymore. But when you updated your English listings a few times, you have there a mess of wrong informations also. Does none of your non-English visitors or customers complain about it? Or flag items?

Update: The support told me to delete all details from the other language tabs. They will be automatically updated after that with the actual details in the English tab. That works. Still a hell of a job, but at least I have nothing to type in.

 

Sorry for a slow response Doc I've been a bit poorly for a couple of weeks. Just getting back to catching up. The Autofill feature is amazingly useful when it works Way back when they first introduced this "Ruby on the rails" (Stupid Name) Marketplace It would accurately reproduce all the different language fields of the item you chose except for the Title. Thereafter it was relatively easy to make necessary minor alterations. But after only a couple of years and no doubt several upgrades the other language fields started drifting towards Planet Borked.

I first noticed this about six years back when out of the blue a few of my items were flagged for keyword spam. It turned out that the keywords objected to were actually in the other language fields. Search picks up all words in all languages regardless of what language you are using to browse the marketplace. It was easier to just stop filing in the other fields than to go through every item.

The most recent issue with the English text being auto filled across all the language fields is even more problematic. It means a merchant must first check all those fields before pressing the update button. Removing the text and then crosses fingers that it doesn't come back (this has been happening). The thing is it is making adding new listing a much more laborious task and I'm now discouraged from using the autofill for anything.

But those who are not aware of the language bug may find that their items may get flagged for no fault of their own other than trusting that the Marketplace features are reliable.

The one workaround I have found but don't take my word as gospel is to simply place a single character such as a dash (-) in each of the other language fields. This seems to hoodwink the bug into ignoring the fields but it's extra work for us.

Recently there are lots of new buggy things creeping into the Marketplace as entropy sets in. For example yesterday I discovered that when I want to sort my listing page by Newest etc. That works fine for the first page but when I want to move onto page 2, 3 and so on it reverts back to borked relevance. Now I am only able to see my first 96 newest listed items. The sorting no longer works in sequence. 

ChinRey has a far better grasp of the technicalities than I could ever have and the SL Marketplace devs would be well advised to pay heed to her comments (but they wont).

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  • 3 weeks later...

No problem. :) I have to say sorry also. For me the matter is done. So I didn't watch this thread anymore. Well, I don't think that the Linden people are ignorant or lazy. They know the market is a good instrument to make cash. The more the better. So when they don't correct all these known flaws I wonder what reasons they might have? Perhaps the market needs a complete overhaul and they don't dare  to touch the challenge? lol

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