Picture-Taking Annoyance

[Prokofy Neva]

This is one of those problems that probably started as someone's idea of "making things better" -- and they weren't wrong -- but then either they hadn't thought it through, or it didn't work as planned.

This is, of course, assuming that this problem isn't some annoyance peculiar only to my SL, which seems unlikely.

For years, the way snapshots worked was this: when you log on, you snap a picture, and for the very first picture of that log-on session, the system will force you to label it on your own hard drive. At that juncture you would also be forced to pick a folder into which the pictures would be saved.

Then it would proceed automatically with sequential numbering. So let's say I log on, make a picture and decide to call it "Pattern" for something I'm building, and then I get "Pattern_01", then "Pattern_02" and so on.

Some weeks ago, this system changed to what "seemed" better -- the system no longer forced you to make up a new name for your pictures each time you logged on. So now it automatically called the next picture from the new fresh log on "Pattern" -- the name chosen from the *last* log-on.

That would be fine, if it "just knew" to keep the same sequential numbering. But it doesn't -- it keeps that name, but now it starts the numbering over, "Pattern_01".

So obviously when you try to put your pictures into folders, it bounces and asks you if you really want to do that, to skips it, or it forces you to renumber it -- say "1Pattern_01" so the original picture with that name is NOT overwritten.

So now, while you no longer have to go through the annoyance of thinking up a new label and putting it into the same or a different folder to save, you will then later have to re-number pictures that ended up having the same name AND number -- from several different log-on sessions.

Which is worse? Eventually you conclude the latter, even though it was supposed to "help," because at least when you were forced to think up a new name on every log-in, you didn't have to worry about pictures having the same name from session to session and the danger/annoyance of errors forcing re-labels. They simply wouldn't overwrite if you chose a different name every time -- and chances are you would be happy to do that as you would be photographing *something different during a different log-on*.

I'm sure there will be found contrarians who will say I am "doing something wrong" or "don't get it" -- but that's absurd. We all know how the system worked for at least 12 or 13 years. Now it has changed suddenly, ostensibly "for the better," but only introduced another annoyance -- having to renumber pictures with the same name AND number later.  There does not seem to be any way to turn this off, to force a new log-on to give you the option of a new label -- it automatically picks up the name you had from the previous log-on session but then restarts the numbering (perhaps it is technically not feasible to keep going in sequence.

Of course there will be found people who say, but you just relabel it, it's not a big deal. No, because having to make new labels is an annoyance -- hey, the very annoyance that prompted the devs to get rid of this forced-renaming upon each log on! Hello!  And it's much worse having to do it sometimes randomly when it suddenly clashes later when you are trying to put a picture into a folder (and you may put them in *different* folders).

What is the solution? Either you have to put back the system that forces a re-name and re-save upon each log-in OR ensure that if the system generates the same name at each log-in, it also keeps going on the sequence and doesn't start over. It seems to me if you have a system that can remember a name, why can't it remember also the last number in a sequence and generate the next sequential number?

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Prokofy Neva

[Beq Janus]

That feature will become optional in the next Firestorm release with a toggle to return to the previous behaviour or to persist between sessions so you can choose the lesser of two evils.

 

I'm not sure if you are one of our users, but if not then you might want to raise a Jira on the lab's site and they might follow our lead.

 

Hope that helps, all the best 

Beq

[Callum Meriman]

A toggle is a good idea, thanks Beq and others in the FS team.

[Willow Wilder]

13 minutes ago, Beq Janus said:

raise a Jira on the lab's site and they might follow our lead.

This can be tracked on MAINT-8427 which now redirects to SL-1804. (essentially useless info now) 

I'm sorry. This is the baddie that created this issue, which also turned out to be most unpopular with Firestorm users. I was hoping to reference a report on LL's bug tracker regarding this, but I've failed in this task. *hangs head in shame* 

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Willow Wilder
Only 10% paying attention.

[Beq Janus]

11 minutes ago, Willow Wilder said:

This can be tracked on MAINT-8427 which now redirects to SL-1804. (essentially useless info now) 

I'm sorry. This is the baddie that created this issue, which also turned out to be most unpopular with Firestorm users. I was hoping to reference a report on LL's bug tracker regarding this, but I've failed in this task. *hangs head in shame* 

 

Not useless at all, anyone raising a Jira against the lab requesting a fix can cite MAINT-8427 as the change that caused the pain. 

[Alyona Su]

So this is a viewer issue?

//Catznip viewer rawks.

(Sorry, I had to say it)

Edited September 14, 2018 by Alyona Su

[Whirly Fizzle]

1 minute ago, Alyona Su said:

So this is a viewer issue?

Yes. It's a new "feature" in the LL viewer code base.

[Alyona Su]

1 minute ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

Yes. It's a new "feature" in the LL viewer code base.

Yikes - even more reason I love my chosen app. LOL

But here's the question - and a serious one - is it being set to default on... by default? That would explain the OP's frustration for sure.

[Whirly Fizzle]

1 minute ago, Alyona Su said:

Yikes - even more reason I love my chosen app. LOL

But here's the question - and a serious one - is it being set to default on... by default? That would explain the OP's frustration for sure. 

Yes.
There is no option to roll back to the previous behaviour on the LL viewer.
Firestorm users hated it - hence why the option was added for the next release.

I'm too lazy to find the commit on the LL bitbucket (bitbucket search sucks), but here is the LL code in the Firestorm repository: http://hg.phoenixviewer.com/phoenix-firestorm-lgpl/rev/1a535fdae616

[Beq Janus]

1 minute ago, Alyona Su said:

Yikes - even more reason I love my chosen app. LOL

But here's the question - and a serious one - is it being set to default on... by default? That would explain the OP's frustration for sure.

It is not even an option on LL. Nor on the current FS release (as we swept it up in our merges). Kitty would also pick it up , but not sure if Kitty has it in her latest yet, but I'll give her a heads up that she might want to think about whether or not to take that merge

[Alyona Su]

2 minutes ago, Beq Janus said:

It is not even an option on LL. Nor on the current FS release (as we swept it up in our merges). Kitty would also pick it up , but not sure if Kitty has it in her latest yet, but I'll give her a heads up that she might want to think about whether or not to take that merge

Wow. In Catznip you set the default name and can add variables like Region, date, time, etc. I always use the Save As option, myself - does LL viewer still allow that? (Though I know that save-to-disk from key-command doesn't ask for a name)

 

[Whirly Fizzle]

1 minute ago, Alyona Su said:

I always use the Save As option, myself - does LL viewer still allow that?

Yes it does.

[Whirly Fizzle]

For reference, complaints about the behaviour change on the Firestorm JIRA

FIRE-22853 - Snapshots to disk inherit previous filename

[Chic Aeon]

Oh my. I didn't update this time because of various physics upload issues which some folks are repeatedly having and I wanted to avoid. This would have driven my crazy for sure.  Good it will be remedied. 

 

[Beq Janus]

2 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Oh my. I didn't update this time because of various physics upload issues which some folks are repeatedly having and I wanted to avoid. This would have driven my crazy for sure.  Good it will be remedied. 

2

Hmm, no physics issues that I know of (none that aren't the result of people using the OS version when they ought not at least). Can you point me at any threads or Jiras I may have missed, perhaps better to IM me rather than divert this thread?

[Chic Aeon]

I wrote it all out on a thread not long after the new issue. You assured me that there was no issue. I, however, know folks WITH issues so staying away until I really need to upgrade. House-type models will not upload correctly with either planes or cube physics -- a no opening recognized with thin walls -- at least in one cae.  Since these are folks that really do know how to make physics models I can only assume that there is an issue. I advised them to contact FS support and likely you personally - I think so anyway. If they did not, I don't know what to say.   

I don't follow Jiras at all so if there is one I have no idea what it is. Since I didn't upgrade I have had no issues. I can't say if I would have AFTER upgrading but I am not chancing it after talking down some friends after many hours of "dealing". NOT my kind of fun LOL.   Sorry I can't help more.

[Prokofy Neva]

7 hours ago, Beq Janus said:

That feature will become optional in the next Firestorm release with a toggle to return to the previous behaviour or to persist between sessions so you can choose the lesser of two evils.

 

I'm not sure if you are one of our users, but if not then you might want to raise a Jira on the lab's site and they might follow our lead.

 

Hope that helps, all the best 

Beq

No, I will never become a Firestorm user. Ever. In my life. For the many reasons I've blogged about for the last decade.

I am a member of secondlife.com and I prefer to use the official viewer -- and there is no reason why I shouldn't, and the Lindens should fix this on their viewer, regardless of what Firestorm does.

I'm glad to see that this is confirmed as an issue.

 

[Callum Meriman]

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I prefer to use the official viewer

And everyone has the right to use the viewer that best suits them. ? I was wondering myself why it had stopped asking, thank you for the thread so i now know and so I am happy Beq and Whirly and Willow were kind enough to point to the cause - the Lab made another ill considered change.

I concur with them, it's absolutely best to watch the jira and possibly make comment there so your views are not completely ignored. 

Jira is there to give us an auditable voice, and always the best place (possibly only) place to list a point of view so a Linden reads it. Here on the forums it's way too much hit and miss - as you very well know - to the proper (or any) Linden seeing it.

Myself, I am super happy a change is coming in the viewer I use to revert the action. It's really a silly one and has messed my photos up a lot. Hope your preferred viewer is fixed soon too.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Callum Meriman

[Beq Janus]

12 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

I wrote it all out on a thread not long after the new issue. You assured me that there was no issue. I, however, know folks WITH issues so staying away until I really need to upgrade. House-type models will not upload correctly with either planes or cube physics -- a no opening recognized with thin walls -- at least in one cae.  Since these are folks that really do know how to make physics models I can only assume that there is an issue. I advised them to contact FS support and likely you personally - I think so anyway. If they did not, I don't know what to say.   

I don't follow Jiras at all so if there is one I have no idea what it is. Since I didn't upgrade I have had no issues. I can't say if I would have AFTER upgrading but I am not chancing it after talking down some friends after many hours of "dealing". NOT my kind of fun LOL.   Sorry I can't help more.

Ahh, that thread, yeah, I was never contacted by the affected user so I presumed that they'd realised their mistake and moved on, I have no idea who they are so I cannot contact them. If you can tell me who it is, I am more than happy to reach out to them and work out what the underlying issue is. I have tested this area thoroughly, you know me well enough to know that, if there is a bug then I cannot reproduce it and without that, I cannot hope to fix it. A jira is the best way to capture and track this but if nobody else will raise that I can still work but I cannot fix bugs based on conjecture and rumour, I need a repro. Any help in resolving this one way or another would be very much appreciated, especially as we are approaching the time when the Animesh release should start to settle so it would be good to try to get such open concerns closed.

[Chic Aeon]

22 minutes ago, Beq Janus said:

Ahh, that thread, yeah, I was never contacted by the affected user so I presumed that they'd realised their mistake and moved on, I have no idea who they are so I cannot contact them. If you can tell me who it is, I am more than happy to reach out to them and work out what the underlying issue is. I have tested this area thoroughly, you know me well enough to know that, if there is a bug then I cannot reproduce it and without that, I cannot hope to fix it. A jira is the best way to capture and track this but if nobody else will raise that I can still work but I cannot fix bugs based on conjecture and rumour, I need a repro. Any help in resolving this one way or another would be very much appreciated, especially as we are approaching the time when the Animesh release should start to settle so it would be good to try to get such open concerns closed.

Yes, I know that if I don't know issue :D.    They didn't get it fixed and as far as I know haven't made anything like houses where they would see that issue. Avoidance isn't fixing I know!

I don't feel comfortable giving out their names if they didn't want to contact anyone.  But if it the issue still persists when I update next time I will document for sure and  let you know.   There aren't that many folks working on houses and some of them just upload in pieces so physics isn't as complex and issue.  AND some, just make "faux" physics and upload with "lowest" checked (not a great plan in my book). 

 

[Willow Wilder]

2 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

Yes, I know that if I don't know issue :D.    They didn't get it fixed and as far as I know haven't made anything like houses where they would see that issue. Avoidance isn't fixing I know!

I don't feel comfortable giving out their names if they didn't want to contact anyone.  But if it the issue still persists when I update next time I will document for sure and  let you know.   There aren't that many folks working on houses and some of them just upload in pieces so physics isn't as complex and issue.  AND some, just make "faux" physics and upload with "lowest" checked (not a great plan in my book). 

 

I don't follow the forums too closely, but I have noticed a certain style with some of your comments. You tend to sit on the fence a lot and use double-talk. This seems to have served you well, but responses like the above derailed comments can be frustrating to those trying to maintain a functioning viewer for as many as possible.

On the one hand, you casually mention not updating because of "various physics upload issues which some folks are repeatedly having and I wanted to avoid" which have yet to be substantiated or reported. Then in another breath, well the issue is not fixed (I wonder why) but they're not making houses now so even though these people apparently know all there is to know about physics, it's a non-issue at the moment, so to heck with any of the other Firestorm users, or team members willing to address the issue. But rest assured, if and when you get around to updating whenever, and why would you given these apparent issues, you'll report it for sure!

I get that people don't follow the Jira, and I'm not suggesting everyone should. Nor am I suggesting you should run out and become a bug hunter. But this fence-sitting, ambivalent info isn't helpful either in my view either to those reading along. Some readers might actually take heed in what you've written on this thread for example, and that to me, would be a shame. 

[Chic Aeon]

@Willow Wilder

I am not sitting on the fence with this. I, personally chose NOT to update Firestorm because of issues friends (who I know are good builders) have had. That is MY choice.  I certainly believe everyone has a choice. I would assume that you believe that too, but perhaps not.  I am not revealing names mostly on a morals reason. I do keep secrets VERY well, and hence I hear more of them simply BECAUSE I don't reveal names. 

If you want to be picky, that information was told to me within SL and so revealing what was said exactly and who said it would be breaking some TOS rules (in my mind anyway). I did what I could do. I advised the folks to contact Firestorm. I am not their keepers or their mothers.

If you believe my posts are too wishy washy you certainly have the right and the ability to mute me. That is YOUR right.  This particular incident didn't happen TO me, hence I have no first hand information to report in a JIRA even if I was inclined to. As I said if "I" have this problem when I next update Firestorm (because that of course will happen eventually) I will do my best to report it with screenshots both here in the forums and to the Firestorm devs.  If you do watch my posts, you must also know that I go to great lengths to report. 

That's pretty much all I can say. I am not going to change my methods in SL or in RL. 

BTW I am and have always been a great supporter of Firestorm. I have written glowing articles about Firestorm events and features  several times in my blog and I donated three full (best selling) gacha sets to the latest money raising effort (now just ending) so if you think that my post was in ANY way "anti-Firestorm" you are reading that into the text. 

 

[Whirly Fizzle]

It's just really frustrating for QA & devs to hear from someone that there is a bug & "many people" have the problem & then never get a factual report for said bug from anyone.
If no-one reports the bug through the proper channels, it isn't going to get fixed.
Quite honestly, most reports of "broken" mesh physics turn out to be user error when they are investigated.
Getting mesh physics right is a tricky thing, even for the best creators.

If I had L$1 for every pseudo-report of a bug in Firestorm that "all my friends are having" that turns out to be not a bug or nothing to do with the viewer at all, or even nothing to do with SL at all even, I'd be an SL millionaire by now.

IF there is a real bug, we want to know about it so it can be fixed.
Being given the run around just wastes everyones time.
Perhaps we are a little touchy because this kind of thing happens so often, but that's just the way it is. For us, hearing from a 3rd party about a possible viewer bug over & over again in various forum posts & not being able to get any clarifying info so it can be looked into is extremely frustrating.

[Chic Aeon]

1 minute ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

It's just really frustrating for QA & devs to hear from someone that there is a bug & "many people" have the problem & then never get a factual report for said bug from anyone.
If no-one reports the bug through the proper channels, it isn't going to get fixed.
Quite honestly, most reports of "broken" mesh physics turn out to be user error when they are investigated.
Getting mesh physics right is a tricky thing, even for the best creators.

If I had L$1 for every pseudo-report of a bug in Firestorm that "all my friends are having" that turns out to be not a bug or nothing to do with the viewer at all, or even nothing to do with SL at all even, I'd be an SL millionaire by now.

IF there is a real bug, we want to know about it so it can be fixed.
Being given the run around just wastes everyones time.
Perhaps we are a little touchy because this kind of thing happens so often, but that's just the way it is. For us, hearing from a 3rd party about a possible viewer bug over & over again in various forum posts & not being able to get any clarifying info so it can be looked into is extremely frustrating.

NOTED :D   I will in the future refrain from posting information.

My intent (back when I wrote about the issue in earnest) was to let other builders know that if they were making houses and had the same type of issue that they could not resolve (and typically all went well in that they were not new  to mesh physics), that it "might" not be them. Sometimes as a builder that is VERY IMPORTANT information.  

 

[Willow Wilder]

1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

@Willow Wilder

I am not sitting on the fence with this. I, personally chose NOT to update Firestorm because of issues friends (who I know are good builders) have had. That is MY choice.  I certainly believe everyone has a choice. I would assume that you believe that too, but perhaps not.  I am not revealing names mostly on a morals reason. I do keep secrets VERY well, and hence I hear more of them simply BECAUSE I don't reveal names. 

If you want to be picky, that information was told to me within SL and so revealing what was said exactly and who said it would be breaking some TOS rules (in my mind anyway). I did what I could do. I advised the folks to contact Firestorm. I am not their keepers or their mothers.

If you believe my posts are too wishy washy you certainly have the right and the ability to mute me. That is YOUR right.  This particular incident didn't happen TO me, hence I have no first hand information to report in a JIRA even if I was inclined to. As I said if "I" have this problem when I next update Firestorm (because that of course will happen eventually) I will do my best to report it with screenshots both here in the forums and to the Firestorm devs.  If you do watch my posts, you must also know that I go to great lengths to report. 

That's pretty much all I can say. I am not going to change my methods in SL or in RL. 

BTW I am and have always been a great supporter of Firestorm. I have written glowing articles about Firestorm events and features  several times in my blog and I donated three full (best selling) gacha sets to the latest money raising effort (now just ending) so if you think that my post was in ANY way "anti-Firestorm" you are reading that into the text. 

 

No, it's not a dispute about your rights or mine, or being anti- or pro-Firestorm, or even your morals for heaven's sake! You seemed to understand better how Whirly phrased it, so I'll leave it at that, lest I should be accused of murdering your pets.