Wanted: experienced clothing designer

[DaniTon]

Hey there, I'm trying to start a new shop and I need an experienced designer to help me. I would perfer someone that knows how to make things for mesh bodies as well as making some nice mesh clothes for men and women and maybe even shoes. I want to have a few sections to my store like clothing for men and women and outerwear for men and women and then intimates for mostly women. Each section would include the seperate items and a few outfits made up of those seperate items and maybe with shoes.  I'm willing to give you a workshop area in my store if you'd like one and any support or help I could give. There are two payment options for your work, either a 40% split for all you make or I can pay you a one time price you name within reason. If you are interested in the job please IM me in-world (Daniton) or contact me on here. :) Thank you!

[Buttacwup Float]

Out of curiosity, what are you offering? Taking a 60% cut on sales seems kinda high when the majority of the work is in the design and creation of the actual mesh.

[DaniTon]

I don't really think 60% is too high. While yes, there is a lot of hard work in creating it there is also a lot of hard work in starting a company and getting people to buy what you make. The majority of the 60% would actually not go into my pocket but rather into land fees and advertisement in world. I think 60% is fair when the creator doesnt have to spend their money on getting it out there or land. If the company takes off I would be more than happy to give the creator much more but there are no garuntees unless I put my time and money into getting it out there. I would also be very open to paying a one time price for the work that the creator names, not me. However with a 60/40 split I would be very open to offering major bonuses. If I find a creator that can do what I want, I'd be more than happy to pay them whatever they want in the long run, especially if what they make sells.

[Kira Paderborn]

If a creator is buying meshes or templates to make the clothes for you, they can not transfer them to you.  They can sell them in your store but they can not give them to you to sell in your store.  Also, you can not buy meshes and give them to someone to make for you.  This means, the entire expense of uploads, buying the clothes templates/meshes, making all of the textures for the clothes, boxing, and everything that is involved in that, including making the box art, I am assuming would fall on the person you would like to have basically do all of your work for you.  Yes, advertising does take time but it does not take money and is sure as heck does not take 60% of the funds to do.  I have several businesses in SL which i have had for years so I speak from experience.  Note cards and group joining and word of mouth cost nothing.  If you offered someone 40% of profits after the cost of their meshes and templates and uploads were taken out first (meaning you don't take a cent until the cost of making the item is given back)....then maybe you might have a biter for this venture.  But I would personally stay FAR AWAY from any deal like what you have stated above.  I think what this shows is the lack of knowlege you have about making clothes in second life and the time and effort that goes into it.  I am not trying to belittle you but you really need to do some more homework before you try to get a clothing maker to join you and hopefully anyone reading this thread will think long and hard before accepting the above offer.  

[Pamela Galli]

Another example of someone who doesn't understand how the world works. For example, an experienced mesh designer gets paid a minimum of $20 an hour. He can also hire someone for much less than that to handle marketing aspects of selling.

No no one but maybe your mother loves you enough to make mesh for you under your terms.

[DaniTon]

I find a lot of what's in this in bad taste. I'm not being cheap, in fact I'm more than willing to pay what is fair. I also believe that loyalty and hard wotk go hand in hand and I don't want to hire someone that doesn't understand that.

[Tari Landar]

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DaniTon wrote:

I find a lot of what's in this in bad taste. I'm not being cheap, in fact I'm more than willing to pay what is fair. I also believe that loyalty and hard wotk go hand in hand and I don't want to hire someone that doesn't understand that.

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I think the very first thing you need to do is figure out what it is you want. Because you've confused two different things here. Either you're looking for a business partner(which is what profit splits are used for, primarily), or you're looking for an employee.

Regardless of which type of person you are looking for, you need to sit down and re-think your entire idea of what it is you really want. a 60/40 split that favors the person doing the least amount of work, is not fair and is REALLY in bad taste. 

What you have proposed as the work split, is not really an even split. You are looking for someone to make ALL of the products YOU want to sell, and you want to pay them less to do that. That IS being cheap. As much as I don't want to come across as if I am being mean, I fear you'll likely take it that way anyway.

The work required to make the things you want, is extensive. We aren't even talking about just hours here, but days, weeks, even months for an entire clothing line. That is most definitely worth a heck of a lot more than the work you propose that you will do. 

While I can completely understand that not everyone can make clothing, I cannot understand wanting to pay others less to do what you can't. That seems unrealistic, to me. You keep saying that you want to pay what it's worth, but the problem is I don't think you understand the actual worth of the work you are asking for.  You said you don't want to "hire" someone that doesn't understand hard work and loyalty. But I have to question if you understand those terms, and what they mean. Judging from your responses here, you do not. Hard work would define what you want someone else to do(which is reasonable, if you can't do the work yourself, of course, we're not all able to do such things). Loyalty would entail you paying them what that hard work, their work(time, effort, skill) is worth.

Your proposal, as it stands, including your responses, shows that you don't value the kind of person or work you are looking for enough to amke this a worthwhile venture. While I know you may tke all of this the wrong way, there isn't really a nicer way for anyone to state it.

I suggest going back over your game plan, speaking to people that make the things you're looking for so you can better understand the kind of work that goes into it, and speaking to some business owners that have partners(and split profit) so you can better understand how they come to the terms of such splits(usually together, not one of them coming up with the terms on his/her own). You're going to continue to be met with criticism if you don't, and if you don't get a better grasp on exactly what it is you are asking. You may even end up "hiring"someone that doesn't fit your needs, and gives you subpar work, because of your lack of understanding, and end up right back in the same place, or even worse

(lack of understanding isn't a bad thing on it's own, we all need to learn new things now and then!) 

Best of luck to you, but, honestly, I'd take the advice you've been given to heart, these folks know precisely what they are saying and their words come from experience  

[DaniTon]

Frankly I find it in bad taste because I do not nor will I ever find it fair. I find it's over rated and they are being very greedy in my opinion and several other designers I have talked to that can't help me with this. I'm not asking for them to pay for what they make instead it's a business deal, something no one on second life seems to understand. I would definitely consider them a major part of the company and give them the respect and freedom they deserve while trying my hardest to see that things don't just flop. It can be a risk at first but I'm trying to find someone willing to take the risk I am taking as well. I would need 60% to properly start a company from an idea and turn it into something nice. For the right person I would be willing to bring it to 50/50 TO START! This isn't just to piggy back on the hard work of others. It is very small minded to think on terms of yourself which most people on here have been doing otherwise they wouldn't be actively attacking my proposal. If this was unbiased they could have easily not answered but they chose to answer. I respect their opinions and the right to voice them, but opinions are something where everyone has one and they usally stink.

[Pamela Galli]

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DaniTon wrote:

I find a lot of what's in this in bad taste. I'm not being cheap, in fact I'm more than willing to pay what is fair. I also believe that loyalty and hard wotk go hand in hand and I don't want to hire someone that doesn't understand that.

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The problem with your thinking is that you expect total strangers to be loyal to you, just because, well, you are you. 

That sounds like the attitude of a young teen.

[Pamela Galli]

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DaniTon wrote:

Frankly I find it in bad taste because I do not nor will I ever find it fair. I find it's over rated and they are being very greedy in my opinion and several other designers I have talked to that can't help me with this. I'm not asking for them to pay for what they make instead it's a business deal, something no one on second life seems to understand. I would definitely consider them a major part of the company and give them the respect and freedom they deserve while trying my hardest to see that things don't just flop. It can be a risk at first but I'm trying to find someone willing to take the risk I am taking as well. I would need 60% to properly start a company from an idea and turn it into something nice. For the right person I would be willing to bring it to 50/50 TO START! This isn't just to piggy back on the hard work of others. It is very small minded to think on terms of yourself which most people on here have been doing otherwise they wouldn't be actively attacking my proposal. If this was unbiased they could have easily not answered but they chose to answer. I respect their opinions and the right to voice them, but opinions are something where everyone has one and they usally stink.

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PWD

[DaniTon]

I don't want this kind of unnecessary drama on my post or in my life! I've had a very rough day and would appreciate it if you were mature and would respect that. As for trying to bring my real life into this, you can stop right there. Assumptions and petty arguing is never good. You're more than welcome to have your opinions, but please keep it off my posts.

[DaniTon]

My last word on this is if you truly feel the need to tell me something, tell it to me privately. Otherwise, I will not be wasting my time on anything else you'd like to agruge over or assume about me. Good day.

[Tari Landar]

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DaniTon wrote:

Frankly I find it in bad taste because I do not nor will I ever find it fair. I find it's over rated and they are being very greedy in my opinion and several other designers I have talked to that can't help me with this. I'm not asking for them to pay for what they make instead it's a business deal, something no one on second life seems to understand. I would definitely consider them a major part of the company and give them the respect and freedom they deserve while trying my hardest to see that things don't just flop. It can be a risk at first but I'm trying to find someone willing to take the risk I am taking as well. I would need 60% to properly start a company from an idea and turn it into something nice. For the right person I would be willing to bring it to 50/50 TO START! This isn't just to piggy back on the hard work of others. It is very small minded to think on terms of yourself which most people on here have been doing otherwise they wouldn't be actively attacking my proposal. If this was unbiased they could have easily not answered but they chose to answer. I respect their opinions and the right to voice them, but opinions are something where everyone has one and they usally stink.

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Most of the folks that have replied, understand business, especially business in sl, better than you do(better than I do, better than a lot of us do!) You are taking absolutely 0% risk if someone else is doing the hard work. That is the part you are ignoring. If you do NONE of the work to make the products, you shouldn't get the majority of the profit. I don't think you quite understand business deals yourself, which may be part of the problem here. You see the work YOU want to do, as "making the business" when in all reality, without products absolutely nothing you do on your end is actually going to "make a business".

I have worked with people with similar mindsets, they get absolutely nowhere. In fact, I just stopped working with someone(not in sl) on a project *because he had the very same mindset, despite the fact that the majority of the work was to be done by me. I'm sorry, but that's not even remotely reasonable. When I make things, regardless of the medium or the product itself, I do the majority of the hard work. Advertising, finding a "space" to sell(be it online or off) can be difficult and yes it can be hard work, but it is not even close to as hard as making the actual product itself. In my case, it was working on some programs and apps. I did all the writing, testing, debugging, fixing, etc... of the programs and applications themselves, he simply wanted to sell them. So he did the work of advertising, finding a place TO sell them, and setting those things up. All in all, he spent no more than a week in total(working here and there). Whereas I have been working on these things for months on end. He wanted to change our agreement so that he would get the majority of the cut. I walked away. Do you understand why I walked away? I can just as easily do all of the marketing, advertising, finding a "space" myself. In this instance, he reached out to me, because we'd worked together before. I thought it was a good idea(and it was, at first) But then he put himself as a priority and for some reason thought "Well it's MY business idea, I came up with it, I did the advertising, and took all the risk". No, he didn't, actually, he took no risk at all. I didn't either, because I never let him see my finished work, merely the mockups, the ideas on paper, etc... However, if I HAD shown him, then I would be taking all of the risk, and he would have taken none. In either case, *I* did the work.(I've since found someone else to work with on a couple of the projects, while others I will do myself, without a partner).

I've had, and seen, similar things in sl, for years. Just because it is your idea, and you are going to do some of the footwork, like finding a place, and advertising, doesn't mean you take all of the risk. It also doesn't mean you deserve more of the cut. *IF* there is going to be a majority/minority split, it should always go in favor of the person that not only has the largest risk, but also does the majority of the work. That's what you have to consider, and you're not doing so.

Have you ever made these items you are looking for someone else to make? That might be why it seems you are confused, or why it seems you believe that you are the majority of the business If you haven't yet, I suggest trying your hand at it. Because that will probably help you realize how difficult and time consuming it is.

You may not like others' opinions, or think they "stink", but on this one, you are completely in the wrong, and there is absolutely no way anyone with any good business sense is going to think otherwise. You are going to be hard pressed to find anyone to work with when you devalue them in this manner.

Although I do wish you all the luck in the world, as I would anyone trying to get into business, I do urge you to do some research on the topic so you can better understand the whole thing. Right now, I don't think you get it, and that might bite you in the butt at some point. I'm not trying to be rude or crass, even though it's entirely likely you'll think of it in that manner. I just hate seeing people get shafted, or seeing people think they CAN shaft others(whether they realize they are doing it or not), because I understand how hard some of these things you want truly are to create. 

[Alwin Alcott]

get some affiliate vendors... if you can bring that to life you show your capabilities, and skilled creators might get interested.

[Poenald Palen]

Ah, so many confusing things in this thread.

Firstly, they would be taking risk! The risk they don't make back the expenses and compensation for thier time for:

1. Land costs and tier fees. Almost required for events listings in SL search. Don't know if they still do it, so read the rules, but you could run events on Linden owned land that is listed in places search as a Hangout.

2. Time running events OR paying for a host, not sure if a host would bring an entourage or whatever but they may at least have more objects and expereince handling it. If not, then maybe costs for objects to run events or otherwise get people to see the products.

3. Any astute reader of the wiki can see that Linden Labs reccommends running a place, NOT a store! This means that the store is not just walls of products. There has to be an experience, in fact I think real life places that sell stuff you don't need (things that are not "commoditised" and price sensitive) focus on the experience of a)the shoping experience b) the product experience c)support experience. Not only that, but hey also predict (or even plan it, like in planned obselecence) that you will want a better, newer, trendier item and plan for that in product development.

4. May be involved in NPD, that is New Product Development. This is deciding OR helping decide what should be made, what features should be made and so on.

5. Costs for awareness (beyond the free stuff, free stuff like PR, still takes time for writing/making or money BTW) and campaigns. From simple fees for making groups to paying HUGE amounts to try classified listings in SL's search, advertising can cost and it also takes time to track the effectiveness. Sometimes it is hard to quantify, such as branding, without taking even more time to poll or chit chat (much nicer, but may take so much time and it still annoys) that they may end up an hour or more at the store during events asking people how they heard, placing and getting stats from TP in mats placed at different parts of the stores etc.

This is a rough and quick explanation, if you also include stuff like doing SWOT and POST analysis, incorporating decision making tools (if the business gets large enough you may think about expanding and including more people, and decisions as well as testing for SL classifieds listings can cost a lot of money for each week or whatever you run the copy you have had or wrote yourself to see if it works.) Learning about vendor tech, traffic aids and all that takes a little bit of time to do, tracking the effectiveness and asking around to make sure you truly have the best stuff for you customers may take a little extra, but still is something that is done to run a store.

In fact, since 60/40 split sounds so similar to marketplaces this reminds me of a Wanted market system market, forget business partners as the form of the company. You hire on a bunch of creators, vet them by getting them to build wierd items, from art work supplied or from descriptions of things that just do NOT exist. Then you advertise you will make anything anyone wants, within the law. The problem is, many will not pay unless it is an exact rip off I bet. SO many want exactly what objects they want in RL it doesn't pay to custom design an item, besides good builders may want more than $20, so you don't get any deals made I bet.

Secondly, she may very well get someone to do it and they are not really a sucker. There are LOTS of creative people, they are a creative underclass and NOT some great driving force of change these days...I don't think, could be wrong on change from the more effective ones though.

In fact, a well selling book that describes the creative minority these days is about how they are EASY to pay little to no money for! It claims great creatives will actuall work because they like it and value freedom.  Sure those might be n00bs, right out of college or people infactuated with freelancing...uh, do the biz guys still get the goods for low cost? YES! Supply and demand people!

The old geezer days use of Creative class people is aimed at social change and revolution, wasn't it a famous historian with a german sounding last name? Gosh, I can't remember. These days they are to busy making adverts for famous brands that use physchological tricks to trick people (or filter people out who are not truely going to be fans of the brand) into buying the stuff. Uh, yeah....revolutionaries in deed. BUT, if they can get a feminist agenda in there, push some odd weed legalization symbol into a big advert or make themselves more money later down the road....yeah, they do that. Some may say that it is revolting to be such a sell out, others just laugh and enjoy the new PC they have....which reminds me, I need to be more busy making money instead of being here pondering the many things one can do in SL to promote a company! There books on this stuff people, I can't write one here...though I think I got a few hundred words here already so not so bad for free...ah, forget it tl;dr kicks in for most so I waste my time.