Phil Deakins Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 Freya Mokusei wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: There never was any need to butt up against IE when creating web pages, and there still isn't. I'll take your word for the past but unsure you've demonstrated the knowledge to state this as a fact in the present day. I haven't tried to demonstrate knowledge. Doesn't HTML work any more? I think it does, and there's no problem with IE with HTML. Or are you one who will only use CSS? (A quick demonstration of my knowledge:- Which came first, styles or html? It was styles. That surprised me when I learned it many years ago because styles always looked like something extra to html, which it was for a long time.) Your impression doesn't mean so much considering your willingness to ascribe simple explanations to multi-faceted decision-making. Bottom horizontal row within dividers can be achieved in a valid way using old specs - provided you're careful. Some of the new CSS specs include things like flexi-boxes - the long-awaited replacement for HTML tables. I'm yet to test whether or not IE treats them differently. I think you're wrong there, but I did unintentionally omit one bit of info. The bottom horizontal row was a real problem in the circumstances i said plus when the depth of at least one column was dynamic. Perhaps newer CSS deals with it. Phil Deakins wrote: how many people/companies would accept a paid designer intentionally not catering for almost 1 in 5 people, when it wouldn't take many minutes to cater for them? Very very few indeed. I don't know the answer to this either, and was just reporting that I understand this outlook and have seen it in the wild (without defending). Strikethroughed the bit you can't quantify. The remainder appears to be assumption - which is fine but not something I'm interested in discussing. There was no need to strike out that part because it is accurate. Perhaps new designers might take more than "not many minutes", but it wouldn't take those who are used to it very long at all - which is what I said. Phil Deakins wrote: I don't have any rendering engines in mind at all. Curious, since this was the cause of your error. Browsers are misdirection, and you're either swept up in the confusion or doing the sweeping. At this point I feel that I've tried. If this truly is the first time you've heard the words, you may find value in further independent research. I'm not confused about anything we've discussed. You're the one who's been confused - sometimes arguing against things I haven't said. That's some confusion, especially since you did it multiple times. I'm not interested in which engines which browsers use. I'm only interested in the browsers. So there's no reason why I should ever have heard those engine names before. ETA: Correction. I was confused about whether or not IE is shipped with Windows after you and Perrie appeared to suggest that it isn't. Yes, you have tried. I'll give you that. You haven't persuaded me of anything though, and you have got a number of things wrong, but you tried Phil Deakins wrote: There you are then. You do suggest a browser to your customers - if they don't already have a preference. Was this a trick question? What kind of integrator would leave their customer without any browser if they had no preference? Obviously I end up installing something to associate the HTTP protocol with an application because Windows is incapable of downloading any non-MSFT software without this. Windows users are trapped in that they cannot uninstall IE, but only a small number would be happy being left in this situation. Defaults and bundles have no value to me or anyone except yourself - what matters is user comfort and the ease at which an author can present a webpage as it was intended to be viewed. No, there were no trick questions. If I remember rightly, you were expouinding the percentages of other browsers and it occured to me that, if you are installing Windows for people, then you might be installing a browser of your own preference, which would skew the percentage number, of course, or at least modify what they actually mean. My thinking turned out to be correct. I have to disagree with that. YOU may not be happy being unable to uninstall IE, but I seriously doubt that it would bother many people at all. Everyone can install a different browser if they want to, so that isn't impaired in the slightest. It's interesting that - given the similarity of the field of our experience - we seem to be stuck at perpendiculars on this. I can make all sorts of assumptions as to why but you're right, I don't think this has much value left. I can't weigh your values, and you can't weigh mine. My experience is that web developers almost never develop for themselves - they build to specifications set out (and paid for) by others. I still agree with you that 1 in 5 is a very high number to discard, but really all these users get is the view of the Web that Microsoft intended vs. the one the developer intended. If rendering isn't consistant between browsers despite the same markup, I'd imagine that's the fault of the people who built the browser. It doesn't matter to the customer whose view of the web it is. What matters is whether or not as many people as possible can view the page without nasty flaws like the one this thread is about. The customer is the only one who matters, not the designer. Anyway, you got your hargument. Hope ya had fun! I did. And I've been happy in it. Thank you xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Mokusei Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Phil Deakins wrote: I think you're wrong there, but I did unintentionally omit one bit of info. The bottom horizontal row was a real problem in the circumstances i said plus when the depth of at least one column was dynamic. Perhaps newer CSS deals with it. Well I can try and persuade you of one thing, then. One True Layout - Equal Height Columns Oh and the flex thing, if you're interested... W3C - CSS 3.0 Flex (Aside: Surprise surprise, just like last time - the only CSS exceptions used are for IE-based browsers) Phil Deakins wrote: I have to disagree with that. YOU may not be happy being unable to uninstall IE, but I seriously doubt that it would bother many people at all. Everyone can install a different browser if they want to, so that isn't impaired in the slightest. Wrong-o. The reason IE can't be uninstalled is because MSFT have made sure it's required. This means that however much you try and move to a different browser, certain functions will always be executed through IE. This is an obvious negative against user expectations, where demonstrably only ~20% of users would expect to see IE. Again, note that a lot of my confusion stemmed from your faulty (snipped for fairness, sorry ^^) analogy and what I thought you were trying to imply with it. I'll skip past those more quickly in future. I feel we spend far too long hung up on word games - perhaps it's my perception. I still don't understand why you imagine Windows should have anything to do with IE. This point in the discussion has confused me more than anything - I didn't realise anyone would rationalise the situation in this way. Haha, teaches me! I've tried to read a lot about the foundations of the Web and why it's grown up into this bizarre structure where responsibility is simultaneously shared and shunned. But yeah fun for sure. Next time we'll argue about pianos - those don't frustrate the bejeezus out of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 Freya Mokusei wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: I think you're wrong there, but I did unintentionally omit one bit of info. The bottom horizontal row was a real problem in the circumstances i said plus when the depth of at least one column was dynamic. Perhaps newer CSS deals with it. Well I can try and persuade you of one thing, then. One True Layout - Equal Height Columns (Aside: Surprise surprise, just like last time - the only CSS exceptions used are for IE-based browsers) I'll take your word that CSS has improved since positioning the bottom bar caused real problems when one or more of the columns were dynamic. However... IE is not the only browser that needs to catered for. Safari does too. I understood from you that Safari uses its own engine and not the same one as IE. AND, you can correct me if I'm wrong about this, but the only rules I see are for IE5. That's going back a long way to make your point, isn't it? Phil Deakins wrote: I have to disagree with that. YOU may not be happy being unable to uninstall IE, but I seriously doubt that it would bother many people at all. Everyone can install a different browser if they want to, so that isn't impaired in the slightest. Wrong-o. The reason IE can't be uninstalled is because MSFT have made sure it's required. This means that however much you try and move to a different browser, certain functions will always be executed through IE. This is an obvious negative against user expectations, where demonstrably only ~20% of users would expect to see IE. That's something I didn't know. Again, note that a lot of my confusion stemmed from your faulty analogy and what I thought you were trying to imply with it. I'll skip past those more quickly in future. I feel we spend far too long hung up on word games - perhaps it's my perception. My analogy was perfect. You were just seeing it from the wrong angle. I thought I'd made that very clear, but I won't repeat what I've said several times already. I still don't understand why you imagine Windows should have anything to do with IE. This point in the discussion has confused me more than anything - I didn't realise anyone would rationalise the situation in this way. Haha, teaches me! I've tried to read a lot about the foundations of the Web and why it's grown up into this bizarre structure where responsibility is simultaneously shared and shunned. Well now you should understand my thinking about IE and Windows. I don't know why you found it so hard to understand even if you disagreed. It seems quite logical to me. But yeah fun for sure. Next time we'll argue about pianos - those don't frustrate the bejeezus out of me. Now I'll go back to my piano practise, which I kindly interupted to write this reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I can't think of what I might have said to suggest that IE didn't ship with Windows. As for me I only look at all this from the perspective of an end user. I'm not a programmer or a developer. I feel more like I am a guinea pig in all this. All these people throw all this stuff at us and say, "Let's see how he reacts to this." My initiation into computing was more of a negative experience via Sales Force Automation. The company I was working for told us they were going to computerise us and started trying to build our enthusiasm for it. They kept harping on how it was going to make us more productive. Many of us wrongly interpreted that as meaning "more efficient." Well, it was more efficient for them and it did make us more productive, but by adding to the work load (translated "more hours") that we were already doing. The only plus side was that when someone in middle management told us something we could tell them to E Mail us creating a record. We stopped getting blamed in the field for their stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I suspect like me alot of people primarily use the forums from mobile phones on Android. When I am at my desktop I can be in world. I don't know if IE does a version for Android? I mostly use Opera because as I inderstand it deals with cached web pages properly and doesn't send adiitional traffic every time you press the back arrow. I stopped using IE because it was late to introduce tabbed browsing and since then I have seen no reason to go back especially when they seem to willfully disregard the international standards the others conform to that enables pages to display properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 It was when you said that 'default' was a misnomer on the page we looked at. I took that to mean that IE isn't shipped with Windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 I've no idea if there is an IE version for Andriod. I haven't got into web browsing on a mobile and I've no intention of getting into it. The only reason I own a mobile is in case of emergencies. It's always turned off unless an emergency comes up. I don't even know its number. Yep. IE was late with tabbed browsing. Earlier I related such things to 3rd party viewers being beneficial to LL's viewer, by coming up with things that LL later puts into their viewer - such as bouncing boobs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I spend an hour and a half browsing forums daily on my phone, it passes the time when commuting.. Making posts can be a pain so, sometimes when I get in I will make the replies I was thinking of earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Phil Deakins wrote: It was when you said that 'default' was a misnomer on the page we looked at. I took that to mean that IE isn't shipped with Windows. IE isn't shipped with Windows in Europe is it? Not since March 2010 anyway, apart from the 14 months after service pack 1 was released when they stoped offering a choice because of a "technical problem" that cost them nearly half a million pounds, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 I think it is. I do know that an email client isn't included any more, but i thought that the browser is still shipped with Windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Phil Deakins wrote: I think it is. I do know that an email client isn't included any more, but i thought that the browser is still shipped with Windows. So far as I can tell googling around it isn't. Just see lots of people struggling to get rid of browser choice screens and doing registry hacks to be rid of it - hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted McGregor Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Phil's Internet ! :robottongue: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 LOL - good stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coby Foden Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Phil Deakins wrote: ... i thought that the browser is still shipped with Windows. IE is still shipped with Windows; at least some basic version of it, as can be seen from the screenshot below. But I want to quote some texts, and add my thoughts about the 'default' browser matter. :smileywink: "If you are living in Europe right now [starting from March 2010] and using a computer with a Microsoft operating system you are presented with a program on the first system startup that states 'An Important Choice To Make: Your Browser'. This screen appears after system startup and leads to another screen called Select Your Web Browser(s)." Please note that under every browser there is a button named "Install". If the user clicks "Select Later" button then on next boots up of Windows this screen will be presented again and again; so long until the user actually has made a choice and installed the browser of their choice. Due to this window one could say that Windows actually is supplied with many browsers. Because: • supply - - make (something needed or wanted) available to someone; provide. Windows makes other browsers available via that popup window for installation, thus it supplies them. The way how something is made available does not matter, it is still supplied. Does the fact that some basic functionalities of IE is installed during Windows installation make it the default browser for Windows? In my opinion it does not. Note that the user must make a choice: if the user prefers IE, then the full version of IE must be installed from that popup window. Only after that IE will be the default, full and up to date browser - for that installation of Windows. Naturally the user can select any browser of the their choice from the list and install it thus making it the default browser. And also later on the user can install additional browsers and make any one of them the default one for their Windows. • default - - a preselected option adopted by a computer program or other mechanism when no alternative is specified by the user or programmer. In my Windows the default and the non-default at the moment are: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Coby Foden wrote: But I want to quote some texts, and add my thoughts about the 'default' browser matter. :smileywink: "If you are living in Europe right now [starting from March 2010] and using a computer with a Microsoft operating system you are presented with a program on the first system startup that states ' An Important Choice To Make: Your Browser'. This screen appears after system startup and leads to another screen called Select Your Web Browser(s)." SOURCE Phil must have installed Windose prior to March 2010 otherwise he could not use his definition for "default." Interesting how in your screeen shot it is called "the most widely used." They certainly could not say that today. Probably the only thing that stopped Firefox from dominating was Chrome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irihapeti Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 does anyone know how this works for the Metro/Modern UI on Windows 8? can see how it can/might work for Desktop mode. Just dont know if is any other Metro/Modern browser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irihapeti Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 KarenMichelle Lane wrote: FYI - The overlap error will move to the 2nd forum page in affected IE11 browsers when the topic "Your Vote Is Needed~2014SecondLifeFaboolousSnapsho..." is pushed off the 1st forum page. It seems that the CSS template as processed by IE11 for this field has applied a nextline rule that does not properly process long contiguous strings of letters or "words" such as this topic title is using. It finally truncated the word at a maximum cell length that caused the whole rendered table to be pushed under the sidebar element. If that topic title had used spaces or dashes between the words you would not see this effect using IE11. I tested this on one of my old Forum posts and the results were the same, overlap occurs on the page that I used a long string of letters in the post topic. Now what the long term fix is I'm not sure of. thanks so basically IE11 is seemingly broken bc it allows the user of a forum software to use the maximum cell length for text am not undestanding why that would not be the case. Like why would a render engine not do this (render to a maximum cell length) when the designer of the page sets it to do this how do you (the royal you) rationalise this when you allow maximum length text to be entered by your users. and when it is then go: oh! IE is broken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irihapeti Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 can accept your reasonings bc of your pov my pov comes from where I am. I got two day jobs in large organisations. Costs heaps to make changes even seeming small ones. The cost not so much in new capital expenditure (even when can be quite a lot sometimes) The big cost is getting the staff up to speed when change the software and/or how it works from the way they are used to like in one we went from XP desktop to Win8 Desktop (now 8.1) booting to Desktop bypassing Metro/Mod UI. Everything else stayed the same - app-wise. Was quite a big effort needed (time and resource wise) to get all the staff to work this thru in their heads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted November 13, 2014 Author Share Posted November 13, 2014 Ok, Coby. I imagined that things are as they were. IE is included and can be installed, and then, if someone wants a different browser, s/he can download it from the web. So, from what you've shown me, the use of the word 'default' is not applicable in this case. I withdraw it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted November 13, 2014 Author Share Posted November 13, 2014 Perrie Juran wrote: Probably the only thing that stopped Firefox from dominating was Chrome. Ironically, Google recommended Firefox at one time, but then they decided to control more than they did and they produced their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coby Foden Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Phil Deakins wrote: So, from what you've shown me, the use of the word 'default' is not applicable in this case. I withdraw it Thank you Phil. :heart: :matte-motes-smile: :smileywink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted November 13, 2014 Author Share Posted November 13, 2014 Coby Foden wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: So, from what you've shown me, the use of the word 'default' is not applicable in this case. I withdraw it Thank you Phil. :heart: :matte-motes-smile: :smileywink: I do it for the :heart: from you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coby Foden Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I'm eagerly looking forward to the next subject where we could share our thoughts... :smileyvery-happy: :smileywink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted November 13, 2014 Author Share Posted November 13, 2014 Isn't it your turn to come up with a topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irihapeti Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 i look this up. bc I want to know what is the answer. bc nosey (: + this forums use the < wbr > tag for that long line of text. This is a HTML5 tag. The W3C standard for HTML5 only just been formalised/released like less than 2 months ago. September 2014 when Microsoft made IE 8 (and all since) they made it (in native mode) standard with the actual standard. HTML4 the compatibility switch/mode they put in IE8 (and all IE since) renders some non-HTML4 tags that other render engines allow. Seems some of the people involved in developing these others basically jump the shark. They forked sometime ago from W3C into some group called Whatwg and have been making their render engines ever since however they want. Like sticking < wbr > and other stuff in whenever they feel like it. And not worry so much about documentation and standards and compliance and process and boring stuff like that. They actual say all this themselfs on their website so turns out that the compatibility switch dont make IE compatible with the standards. It makes it compatible with the non-standards used by these some other render/browser makers who been making stuff up as they go along + now that the HTML5 standard has actual been finalised then Microsoft will implement the standard in their browser. Same as they did with IE8 and HTML4 whether Microsoft will continue to pander to this other group now that there is a actual HTML5 standard. I am not so sure about. I think Microsoft are going to dump compatibility mode out of IE soon as they get it fully compliant with the HTML5 standard in native mode + eta: the fix for this issue is for whoever it is who designed the page to: not insert < wbr > into the text. The fix is to do it the standard way. Insert < br >. Until such time as all browsers are fully HTML5 compliant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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