Can mesh be copybotted?

[Imagin Illyar]

I've heard it both ways - that it can and that it can't.  What's the deal?  Can mesh be copybotted?

[Sassy Romano]

Would the answer change whether you created items for SL?

[Imagin Illyar]

Possibly, yes.  For the most part I'd just really like to know what I may be getting involved in.  

[Sassy Romano]

Assume that anything can be copied whether it's now or in the future, either deliberately or via an exploit or some other accidental glitch.  

You can't go wrong with this thought process.  If someone were to say rezzed unrigged mesh can be copied, but rigged can't then you might make rigged items today which were then copiable via an exploit in the future, then what?

[Imagin Illyar]

Ok, I agree that assuming anything can be copybotted is a good rule of thumb.  So my question is - at this present time - can mesh be copybotted?  

[Drake1 Nightfire]

i would say it can be, BUT, it's not worth the  copyboters time.

Let me explain.

When someone copybotts something they get the items  either worn or rezzed.  should you copybot someone wearing a mesh dress you would only get that one size. not worth it to do and not be able to sell. Which is why vendor systems are so useful, when there is nothing in the shop to actually copybot. Plus, unless you have a "brick and mortar" shop inworld they cant copybot your stuff unless they buy it first.

[Imagin Illyar]

Good point on the sizing thing!  But I guess that will change if and when the deformer becomes a reality.  New question - what kind of steps should a mesh designer take to protect against copybotting?

[Innula Zenovka]

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Imagin Illyar wrote:

Good point on the sizing thing!  But I guess that will change if and when the deformer becomes a reality.  New question - what kind of steps should a mesh designer take to protect against copybotting?

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Most people, I think, rely on a good reputation for customer service and a loyal client base.     I don't go out of my way to look for ripped items, but if I see something that looks like it's been ripped from someone whose work I know, I always report it to the creator so she or he can look into the matter.

[Min Barzane]

If its rezzed it can be boted,doesnt matter if linkset is made out  of mix of prims,sculpts and mesh,attached/worn or rezzed on land,copybot viewer will rip it clean out in one obj file... tho its not all smooth sail to boter becouse its ripped apart in to materials and separated (as example one prim box will be separated in to 6 planes) so any copyboted object needs work from copyboter to make it back in to object it was in SL an upload it back! In one word getting it out is easy,getting it back in SL not so easy!

Speaking of protection against such things.... there is none except keep an eye out and DMCA any copyboter you catch!

[Charlot Huet]

The reality is if someone wants to get something sooner or later they will find a way .

There is no fame and glory for these people , their shops do not grown nor do their names. they will not  get rich off your hard work.

Most come and go as the risk is high and in the end they just get finger as crappy person and poof.

Sure in 2006 - 2009 I think there was a few that banked a few bucks but only caught in the end and the objects removed from the asset servers.

If you worry about some one "might" steal your work and that can factor in your willing to learn....just stop now as you do not have what it takes..

You think cheaters are bad wait until you run into the gifted that can copy cat any thing they see

,have a name and go around raping others ideas with their own spin on it totally  legal.

[Imagin Illyar]

Thanks Charlot, I agree with everything you've said.  Not to worry though, as an estate owner I'm quite used to being raped legally in SL

[Tomos Halsey]

To answer your question YES you can. The latest copybot viewers support full mesh ripping and they work. I'll break it down into detail how they rip mesh. There are things known as render rippers and what they do is tap into the render pipeline of the library they are using for the sofware ie Direct X or OpenGL. There is a Direct X ripper that does just this and can pull objects from any Direct X 9,10,11 engine. As for the viewers the programmers take an existing viewer and compile them with their own homebrewed ripping code that reads the contents of the render buffer and puts them out into an obj file. Now dealing with the perspective of the rendering camera and the matricies required to skew the view onto a flat monitor screen can messup the mesh object when its ripped. When this happenes the ripped model file will be skewed and will require cleanup before they can use the mesh. So basically you can rip mesh but it requires a bit of cleanup before you can just go and re-upload it.

[Nacy Nightfire]

It sounds like a lot of work for the ripper.  Most mesh for sl I suspect is fairly simple geometry.  If you have the skills to correct for distorted perspective, it seems like it's just as easy to model from scratch.  The real art is in the texturing.  If thieves are ripping meshes in this way,  what about the UV's and the corresponding textures?

[Kwakkelde Kwak]

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:

It sounds like a lot of work for the ripper.  Most mesh for sl I suspect is fairly simple geometry.  If you have the skills to correct for distorted perspective, it seems like it's just as easy to model from scratch.  The real art is in the texturing.  If thieves are ripping meshes in this way,  what about the UV's and the corresponding textures?

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One would think intercepting the data between the viewer and graphics card would make it possible to copy all of those. Textures are stored in your graphics card, geometry is, UV data is. Your graphic card needs all of those to draw the picture on screen afterall.

One would also think it would be possible to use the data between the server and viewer. The format will be different, but all data is available there too. With the viewer being open source, I don't think that is very difficult to do.

[Nacy Nightfire]

Then maybe, as I've always suspected, opening up shop in SL is  always going to be a bit like selling cups of sand at the beach. It's simply just out there for the taking, regardless of the format.  I'm not saying you can't make a good living selling sand if you creatively package and market it, provide some entertainment around it and give good customer service, but at the end of the day it's still sand.

It's a huge "head-scratcher"  for me that many folks set up shop in sl and then go to war with other shop-keepers who they suspect of either purchasing mesh products on the internet and using them illegally (and they have no real basis for knowing for sure what the arrangement is for these products), or those who might just copy mesh items by modeling them directly.  It's pretty obvious it's just part of the cost of doing business. Corporations as matter of course absorb the cost of  legal departments to defend their trademarks, patents and copyrights.

[Kwakkelde Kwak]

Luckily not everyone steals just because they can. Luckily some people manage to stay ahead too just by being creative. Luckily scripts can't be copied this way, I'm sure it's possible, but since scripts never leave the LL servers, those are far harder to grab. Customer service or knowhow on the products is something that can't be stolen too. Finally, luckily copybotters don't (always) distribute or resell the copied items.

I have items I have on sale copybotted in the past, the offender even proudly showed me the result. Well he said this and that person did it and he exposed them, but I got the impression those persons were one and the same. Anyway, I think most copybotters are just playing around. If your sales rely on how good your items look, not how they function, there's always the risk of someone copying all your things.

All in all I wouldn't consider SL business "selling sand at the beach".

[Nacy Nightfire]

Indeed it can go  beyond "selling sand at the beach" if  a creator who makes a  business out of SL  has the right attitude and perspective, which clearly you do have.  But if the meshes, sculpties, or for that matter prim builds, have no "value added", then I still thing the sand analogy applies.

I agree there is a population of SL participants who want just to see if the can copy for the challenge of it, with no really nefarious intentions.   And, yes, many probably like to expose themselves just because they are proud of what they feel they've accomplished and they want to show other folks just how "smart" they are.   I suspect the problem, although unsettling when one works hard at an creation, is overstated.  Copying isn't the same as packaging, customer service, marketing, listing on the market place, etc.  A whole lot of effort that is WORK.  Folks  I've know who complain bitterly about this problem seem to continue in business and do quite well yet there is always a fear that there is a huge problem of items being ripped which  will put people out of business.  Short of folks who just get disgusted and close up shop, it doesn't seem to be the case.  And those instances where the really big businesses are affected, they have the resources to address the issue head on,  they seem to do so through legal channels and they all are continuing in business.

Please don't anyone miscontrue what I'm writing here.  I'm actually neither a consumer (although I have been a BIG one in the past...I stopped buying things when I learned how to make them and my inventory grew to over 68 thousand objects), nor a commercial participant in SL, and I do NOT condone stealing, ripping or blatant copying of peoples signature work.

It certainly does seem to me, however, that to get absolute assurance that one doesn't get copied one should concentrate commercial efforts as a scripter or as you also point out, add significantly to the value of one's sold items by heavily scripting them  as the best solution to the problem.

I have no  commercial inclinations in SL nor do I want to see my friends who DO have commercial inclinations harmed by people who steal.  I do thingk, though, that many people who are constantly "up in arms" about this issue are unrealistic in expecting a solid and final solution to the problem and it's a waste to time (time better spent creating more and improved  stuff) to dwell on it.

[Innula Zenovka]

The odd thing about scripts is that, while they can't be copied directly, they can usually be reverse-engineered without much difficulty.    Indeed, that's how many of us learn -- we see an interesting effect and try to work out how the original scripter did it.   

The fact that our work can readily be duplicated, though not copied directly, doesn't really bother most scripters, I don't think. Indeed, many of us are quite happy to demonstrate techniques to learners, over in the Scripting Forum and in-world groups, and quite often I find myself swopping ideas about solutions to particular problems with people with whom I am, in theory, in competition.    

[Nacy Nightfire]

I have found almost without exception that  the scripters I've met in SL are extremely generous with assistance and encouragement.   Learning that they are not whiners when it come to others who copy their work makes me admire them even more.

[Perrie Juran]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

The odd thing about scripts is that, while they can't be copied directly, they can usually be reverse-engineered without much difficulty.    Indeed, that's how many of us learn -- we see an interesting effect and try to work out how the original scripter did it.   

 

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This is indeed how I have learned the little bit about scripting that I know.

And everytime I do, my respect for Scripters in SL grows.

From my point of view, what a convoluted language it can be at times. 

[Imagin Illyar]

Well, this post has had a lot of eyes over the last few days and no one has gotten on to complain about their mesh being copybotted so I guess it can't be too big of an issue