Freya Mokusei Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Gadget Portal wrote: I think I see what's going on here... You're getting defensive because I'm bashing this supposedly helpful group aren't you? You betray yourself, sir. In what way are these people merely 'supposedly helpful'? By your own admission they run classes in other subjects, presumably people attend. If people then leave these classes with more knowledge than they entered with, then they are actually helpful. If a location like this wasn't actually helpful, it's likely that it wouldn't exist (because really, can you imagine a place getting donations if no-one learnt anything?) This isn't me being defensive, because I have nothing to defend. I've never worked for an educational organisation teaching SL skills, and I've never accepted donations for my scripting skills. You're in the same postion, you've got nothing to lose because you're an established SL user with skills. Neither of us have anything to lose by discrediting volunteers, but is it smart? You're playing deceitful games with your words, and I think the reasoning behind those games is more interesting than why some fellow SLers rejected you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 Freya Mokusei wrote: Gadget Portal wrote: I think I see what's going on here... You're getting defensive because I'm bashing this supposedly helpful group aren't you? You betray yourself, sir. In what way are these people merely 'supposedly helpful'? By your own admission they run classes in other subjects, presumably people attend. If people then leave these classes with more knowledge than they entered with, then they are actually helpful. If a location like this wasn't actually helpful, it's likely that it wouldn't exist (because really, can you imagine a place getting donations if no-one learnt anything?) This isn't me being defensive, because I have nothing to defend. I've never worked for an educational organisation teaching SL skills, and I've never accepted donations for my scripting skills. You're in the same postion, you've got nothing to lose because you're an established SL user with skills. Neither of us have anything to lose by discrediting volunteers, but is it smart? You're playing deceitful games with your words, and I think the reasoning behind those games is more interesting than why some fellow SLers rejected you. I don't play games with my words. You're reading into them too much if you're seeing that. Take 'em at face value. And, see my previous response, I think it covers the bases a bit better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasmin Helstein Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Not so long ago I joined a vehicle group and soon other members told me I'd be fine as long as I ignored the founder of the group ... And that's how it was, a group with nice, patient and caring people and a founder that was a little rough mouthed and ADHD-ish, maybe a nice addition to the group but not exactly representational for the rest of it. One person can not reflect an entire group and definitely not in just a few words, title or no title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 Jasmin Helstein wrote: Not so long ago I joined a vehicle group and soon other members told me I'd be fine as long as I ignored the founder of the group ... And that's how it was, a group with nice, patient and caring people and a founder that was a little rough mouthed and ADHD-ish, maybe a nice addition to the group but not exactly representational for the rest of it. One person can not reflect an entire group and definitely not in just a few words, title or no title. I hear where you're coming from, but I can't completely agree. Let me give you my perspective. One of the groups I'm in, I'm staff, and an estate manager. Sometimes the job includes having to be a security guard on the public access sim(s). I've had to remind people to play nice, remind them of the rules, and every now and then, ban and eject people. Sometimes they tell me they don't have to listen to me, because they know the owner, or they're going to complain to the owner, whatever. His response is always to the effect of "My staff speaks for me. They are there to act in my behalf when I'm not there to do it for myself. Treat what they say as if it is coming from my own lips. If they tell you to stop doing something, it's because I would tell you to stop doing it." Because of this, the staff is a relatively small group of people, and he makes sure he trusts them before giving them that title. So where I come from, when you're put in a position to speak for, and enforce the policies of a group, it's a significant thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Mokusei Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Gadget Portal wrote: I don't play games with my words. You're reading into them too much if you're seeing that. Take 'em at face value. And, see my previous response, I think it covers the bases a bit better. I think the two examples I've posted above speak for themselves. Gadget Portal wrote: What I'm saying is a spokesperson for the group blew off and ignored a potential volunteer. This isn't news. Not everyone is suited to being a volunteer. This information presented on its own isn't interesting, so I can understand your desire to want to spice things up with f-bombs and assumptions. Gadget Portal wrote: I don't care if people make negative assumptions about this thread. I'm a jerk, I swear too much, I'm angry and bitter, I'm whining about nothing, whatever you want. I can do that. I'm an individual expressing my opinion. It's my god given right to look like a douche bag. However, as soon as I'm representing a group or a workplace, all this goes away and I change my tune, because I know my actions will reflect on the group, and I do what's best for not only the image of the group, but also what's best for the group's needs. This is one of my points. It doesn't matter if people think badly of you, you don't need peoples' support anyway. Holding a volunteer organisation in SL to these entirely non-universal standards you seem to have may very well make them look bad, especially if you deliberately frame it that way (and you have been doing). That's fine, maybe some of them deserve to look bad. But who are you helping, by doing it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 Freya Mokusei wrote: Gadget Portal wrote: I don't play games with my words. You're reading into them too much if you're seeing that. Take 'em at face value. And, see my previous response, I think it covers the bases a bit better. I think the two examples I've posted above speak for themselves. Gadget Portal wrote: What I'm saying is a spokesperson for the group blew off and ignored a potential volunteer. This isn't news. Not everyone is suited to being a volunteer. This information presented on its own isn't interesting, so I can understand your desire to want to spice things up with f-bombs and assumptions. Gadget Portal wrote: I don't care if people make negative assumptions about this thread. I'm a jerk, I swear too much, I'm angry and bitter, I'm whining about nothing, whatever you want. I can do that. I'm an individual expressing my opinion. It's my god given right to look like a douche bag. However, as soon as I'm representing a group or a workplace, all this goes away and I change my tune, because I know my actions will reflect on the group, and I do what's best for not only the image of the group, but also what's best for the group's needs. This is one of my points. It doesn't matter if people think badly of you, you don't need peoples' support anyway. Holding a volunteer organisation in SL to these entirely non-universal standards you seem to have may very well make them look bad, especially if you deliberately frame it that way (and you have been doing). That's fine, maybe some of them deserve to look bad. But who are you helping, by doing it? No, you're right, being blown off isn't interesting. It's because of what the group does, and that they ask for help, that it stands out. As for who I'm helping, I'm not sure. Maybe I'm helping other would-be volunteers, so they know to bring their wallet, not their knowledge, to save time and energy. Maybe I'm helping potential students, somehow. I don't know. I sort of feel like one of those scumbag reporters, "The public has a right to know!" Odd to suddenly see where those types are coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Mokusei Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Okay. So you might well be helping no-one, maybe a prospective volunteer who reads this thread and then... who knows, maybe does an undercover exposé on the nefarious, mafia-style syndicates of users who spend their time paying tier out of their own pockets and teaching new users some skills for a few dollars of donations a month? I can see the headlines now... I think it's a good idea to work out what you think this thread will achieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 Yeah, maybe. Or maybe it's not meant to achieve anything. Maybe it's just for people to say "Hmm. How about that." and then go on with their day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czari Zenovka Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Oh right; I'm so sorry that somehow went over my head. I agree with you totally then and, as another poster stated, sometimes one "representative" of especially a large group/school may have a stick up his rear. Going to the owner or manager/s is good advice. I ran across one or two instructors during the time I was taking a ton of SL classes that I reported to the school owner or head faculty. Both incidents were when an instruction was not clear & I asked for clarification. In one case the instructor said, "Maybe your skill level isn't high enough for this class." Ummmm...it was a level 1 class. I think the instructor's "skill level" in answering questions was suspect. Another time, another school, the instructor was using a reader to "instruct." If anyone asked a question she said, "It's in the instructions! Just scroll back and read it." Both times the school owner/faculty member contacted me to express appreciation for bringing these situations to their attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Gadget seems to having a bit of a rough time in this thread, so I'll jump in. If I believe that I have some skills that would be of use or benefit to a group that teaches those skills, and if I offer my free services to the group for that purpose, I would not expect to be ignored, which is what happened to Gadget. The very least the group manager could do is take me seriously. If they don't need me for whatever reason, that would be fine. All they need to do is treat me with some respect and say so in a respectful way. Judging by what I've gathered from Gadget's posts, he wasn't told that they didn't need any more teachers/instructoirs, and nobody said anything along the lines of, "I know who you are and I'd rather you weren't an instructor here". After the first one or two sentences, he was simply ignored. The person is free to do that, of course. After all, there are many nasty and rude people in the world, and SL is no different. And Gadget is quite right when he says that, because it was a group manager, it reflects on the group as a whole. I really can't see any reason to find fault with Gadget. If he's being truthful, then he was treated shabbily and it was worth posting about. If it's the group I have in mind, it's been known for its less-than-respectful internal ways in the past, so what happened to gadget doesn't surprise me at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Czari Zenovka wrote: [...] I ran across one or two instructors during the time I was taking a ton of SL classes that I reported to the school owner or head faculty. Both incidents were when an instruction was not clear & I asked for clarification. In one case the instructor said, "Maybe your skill level isn't high enough for this class." Ummmm...it was a level 1 class. I think the instructor's "skill level" in answering questions was suspect. Another time, another school, the instructor was using a reader to "instruct." If anyone asked a question she said, "It's in the instructions! Just scroll back and read it." Both times the school owner/faculty member contacted me to express appreciation for bringing these situations to their attention. That reminded me of a time when I was doing evening classes as a student. The teacher we started with went off to the middle east and we got another one, who didn't know much at all. His lessons comprised him dictating from a book, while we wrote what he read, and near the end he would take questions. To answer most of the questions, he referred to what he'd dictated that evening - he had to look it up. Not long after he started with us, one of the students asked a question about the internals of a memory chip. It wasn't in what he'd dictated, and he couldn't find it anywhere in the book, so he couldn't answer the question. I answered the question instead, and I never went back. It was your scrolling notes that reminded me of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 Phil Deakins wrote: Gadget seems to having a bit of a rough time in this thread, so I'll jump in. If I believe that I have some skills that would be of use or benefit to a group that teaches those skills, and if I offer my free services to the group for that purpose, I would not expect to be ignored, which is what happened to Gadget. The very least the group manager could do is take me seriously. If they don't need me for whatever reason, that would be fine. All they need to do is treat me with some respect and say so in a respectful way. Judging by what I've gathered from Gadget's posts, he wasn't told that they didn't need any more teachers/instructoirs, and nobody said anything along the lines of, "I know who you are and I'd rather you weren't an instructor here". After the first one or two sentences, he was simply ignored. The person is free to do that, of course. After all, there are many nasty and rude people in the world, and SL is no different. And Gadget is quite right when he says that, because it was a group manager, it reflects on the group as a whole. I really can't see any reason to find fault with Gadget. If he's being truthful, then he was treated shabbily and it was worth posting about. If it's the group I have in mind, it's been known for its less-than-respectful internal ways in the past, so what happened to gadget doesn't surprise me at all. Phil, you're the man. Expressed my situation so much more concisely and diplomatically than I did. You're absolutely spot on that being told to go away for whatever reason would have been fine. Like I said before, it's my god given right to be a douche bag, and if there are consequences for that in other venues, I'll deal with them. The issue is in being fed a line and then ignored. Especially when it's a group that runs entirely on volunteers! What volunteer group blows off a potential volunteer? It doesn't get much more counter-productive than that. And I gotta comment on the bolded part- why does no one else see that? Group managers reflect on a group. Otherwise, why make them a manager? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 Czari Zenovka wrote: Oh right; I'm so sorry that somehow went over my head. I agree with you totally then and, as another poster stated, sometimes one "representative" of especially a large group/school may have a stick up his rear. Going to the owner or manager/s is good advice. I ran across one or two instructors during the time I was taking a ton of SL classes that I reported to the school owner or head faculty. Both incidents were when an instruction was not clear & I asked for clarification. In one case the instructor said, "Maybe your skill level isn't high enough for this class." Ummmm...it was a level 1 class. I think the instructor's "skill level" in answering questions was suspect. Another time, another school, the instructor was using a reader to "instruct." If anyone asked a question she said, "It's in the instructions! Just scroll back and read it." Both times the school owner/faculty member contacted me to express appreciation for bringing these situations to their attention. Part of me wants to take your advice and go to the owners with the situation. The other part of me, not so much. As you know from seeing my other forum posts... I'm not normally a very... charitable person. I was feeling nice at the time and offered. They blew it, so I figure they lost a potentially useful volunteer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Gadget Portal wrote: Ren Toxx wrote: Gadget Portal wrote: "We have an extensive process and we don't take everyone." "So you're not looking for any volunteers at all?" Your answer there seems to me a bit of a jump into (negative) conclussions, Gadget, and while I agree that theirs didn't sound any friendlier, if you're truly interested in something it's always good practice to develop a bit of a thick skin when trying to achieve it; a more logical follow-up would've been: “Ok. So how do I begin this extensive process?”. Maybe even add the good old courtesy “please” word, since in that context you were essentially asking for information (and maybe to someone who wasn't, in fact, the person responsible for providing it). I'll agree that you shouldn't have to jump through too many hoops, especially for something like volunteering... but the opposite is also true: you shouldn't be discouraged too easily :smileywink: You're missing the point (And yes, they were responsible for providing it- I asked to talk to the person responsible for providing that sort of information, and they stepped up). Jasmin Helstein wrote: You only had one short discussion in group chat with one person that probably didn't know you and then it's easy to misunderstand someone. "You're not in our clique, so you're probably not good enough." seems such an unlikely thing to say, even if that's what the other person was thinking. I wouldn't feel so strongly about it. I can imagine they don't get exited just because someone claims to be able to fill a gap. If they don't know you what reason could they have to let you try anyway ? They don't know if you will be a good teacher, someone should take the time to see how you are doing, maybe you will quit after two or three attempts, you would probably have to be fitted in a schedule at the expense of someone else's time. So volunteer or not it would require time and effort from them as well. If you really want to teach you may get to know the group a little better first and let them get to know you better as well. Except I don't. You're not only missing the point, you're making up totally random ones. And ignoring previous replies in the thread. Here's my reply for both of you; This is not a case of me wanting to fulfill my lifelong dream of teaching. This is not me wanting to take over a position in this place. I was told they need help, so I wandered over to check it out when I got free time. This is not some strong desire of mine that I want to fulfill. When I got to the sim, they had signs up and tip jars out, BEGGING for help. They have affiliate vendors everywhere, with crap saying all proceeds pay for the sim, and it's non-profit, yadda yadda. So, I shrugged and decided to be a nice guy and offer help. The response I got was to f-off, because I'm not good enough. And that's fine, I simple won't help. It's not my loss. Doesn't bother me at all. I'm still in script help groups, and people can still come to me anyway. I'll just keep doing what I've been doing. What it did do was it surprised me, considering all the begging they're doing on their sim. They're begging for help, then they blow you off when your help isn't in the form of cash. That gives me insight into the group's attitude and I thought other people should know about it. Asking for volunteers/instructors is not the same thing as asking for help paying their tier. From the word "go" you made an assumption concerning the sort of help they were asking for and when you were told that they have a process for adding in new instructors, you assumed that it was a brush off. Each and every time this is pointed out to you, you dance around and around, coming up with more and more excuses and pointing to additional information which has no bearing on the core issue here: You made a mistaken assumption, got a response you did not like and now have blown it quite out of proportion. There's a reason I retired completely from any sort of mentoring, Instructing and colunteer helping in Second Life - and it's not the general attitude of the groups. It's not the "Gimmie help NAO" attitude of some of the newer users .... It's the attitude of some of the "helpers" when they are given a response they do not like, be it from a group they felt needed help or from a newer user who prefers to learn on their own. Each and every place has their systems and criteria - deal with it and quit acting as if you were maligned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Gadget Portal wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: Gadget seems to having a bit of a rough time in this thread, so I'll jump in. If I believe that I have some skills that would be of use or benefit to a group that teaches those skills, and if I offer my free services to the group for that purpose, I would not expect to be ignored, which is what happened to Gadget. The very least the group manager could do is take me seriously. If they don't need me for whatever reason, that would be fine. All they need to do is treat me with some respect and say so in a respectful way. Judging by what I've gathered from Gadget's posts, he wasn't told that they didn't need any more teachers/instructoirs, and nobody said anything along the lines of, "I know who you are and I'd rather you weren't an instructor here". After the first one or two sentences, he was simply ignored. The person is free to do that, of course. After all, there are many nasty and rude people in the world, and SL is no different. And Gadget is quite right when he says that, because it was a group manager, it reflects on the group as a whole. I really can't see any reason to find fault with Gadget. If he's being truthful, then he was treated shabbily and it was worth posting about. If it's the group I have in mind, it's been known for its less-than-respectful internal ways in the past, so what happened to gadget doesn't surprise me at all. Phil, you're the man. Expressed my situation so much more concisely and diplomatically than I did. You're absolutely spot on that being told to go away for whatever reason would have been fine. Like I said before, it's my god given right to be a douche bag, and if there are consequences for that in other venues, I'll deal with them. The issue is in being fed a line and then ignored. Especially when it's a group that runs entirely on volunteers! What volunteer group blows off a potential volunteer? It doesn't get much more counter-productive than that. And I gotta comment on the bolded part- why does no one else see that? Group managers reflect on a group. Otherwise, why make them a manager? Group managers in Second Life exist to - GASP! - manage the group. They are not Public Relations officers, they are not the Owner. They are generally the Department Heads. Some groups set up specific manager roles for HR/PRGeneral use - these are the roles that "reflect on the group as a whole." To use a very loose example here: Many of the major ISPs and Mobile Phone providers outsource their technical support/customer service call lines to call centers across the US and the world. The quality of these calls (and the occasional manager escalation) is not a reflection of the outsourcing company. It is a reflection of the call center. When you have a large scale group in Second Life, you end up breaking it up into different departments that are the equivalent of that call center. The users in each department are often chosen by the department heads or managers, not the group as a whole. You expect the department manager to represent the entire group. In reality, said manager does not do such, nor can he/she speak for the entire group outside of notifying you of their procedures. I know one thing: if I held the same viewpoint as you do, I'd have long ago left Second Life as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Nope - you "blew it" by overreacting, making assumptions and thinking that a single person can speak for an entire group. Not the way it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 Solar Legion wrote: Gadget Portal wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: Gadget seems to having a bit of a rough time in this thread, so I'll jump in. If I believe that I have some skills that would be of use or benefit to a group that teaches those skills, and if I offer my free services to the group for that purpose, I would not expect to be ignored, which is what happened to Gadget. The very least the group manager could do is take me seriously. If they don't need me for whatever reason, that would be fine. All they need to do is treat me with some respect and say so in a respectful way. Judging by what I've gathered from Gadget's posts, he wasn't told that they didn't need any more teachers/instructoirs, and nobody said anything along the lines of, "I know who you are and I'd rather you weren't an instructor here". After the first one or two sentences, he was simply ignored. The person is free to do that, of course. After all, there are many nasty and rude people in the world, and SL is no different. And Gadget is quite right when he says that, because it was a group manager, it reflects on the group as a whole. I really can't see any reason to find fault with Gadget. If he's being truthful, then he was treated shabbily and it was worth posting about. If it's the group I have in mind, it's been known for its less-than-respectful internal ways in the past, so what happened to gadget doesn't surprise me at all. Phil, you're the man. Expressed my situation so much more concisely and diplomatically than I did. You're absolutely spot on that being told to go away for whatever reason would have been fine. Like I said before, it's my god given right to be a douche bag, and if there are consequences for that in other venues, I'll deal with them. The issue is in being fed a line and then ignored. Especially when it's a group that runs entirely on volunteers! What volunteer group blows off a potential volunteer? It doesn't get much more counter-productive than that. And I gotta comment on the bolded part- why does no one else see that? Group managers reflect on a group. Otherwise, why make them a manager? Group managers in Second Life exist to - GASP! - manage the group. They are not Public Relations officers, they are not the Owner. They are generally the Department Heads. Some groups set up specific manager roles for HR/PRGeneral use - these are the roles that "reflect on the group as a whole." To use a very loose example here: Many of the major ISPs and Mobile Phone providers outsource their technical support/customer service call lines to call centers across the US and the world. The quality of these calls (and the occasional manager escalation) is not a reflection of the outsourcing company. It is a reflection of the call center. When you have a large scale group in Second Life, you end up breaking it up into different departments that are the equivalent of that call center. The users in each department are often chosen by the department heads or managers, not the group as a whole. You expect the department manager to represent the entire group. In reality, said manager does not do such, nor can he/she speak for the entire group outside of notifying you of their procedures. I know one thing: if I held the same viewpoint as you do, I'd have long ago left Second Life as a whole. You're an even more negative person than me. Anyway, if the guy wasn't public relations, he shouldn't have stepped up to the plate to do the job. Again, it still reflects on the group. You don't let the janitor answer tech calls if he doesn't have the skillset, why would you let your unrelated "department head" field these types of questions. It's a failed argument defending them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 Solar Legion wrote: Nope - you "blew it" by overreacting, making assumptions and thinking that a single person can speak for an entire group. Not the way it works. ... How does one even respond to this? It's actually lowering my IQ. I didn't blow my chance at anything, they did. I was offering to help them, not the other way around. I didn't assume anything, being ignored is fact. And a person in charge of a group speaks for the group's policies and methods, or that person shouldn't be in charge. I'd hate to see you in any kind of work environment, thinking nothing your employees/managers do reflects on the business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 Solar Legion wrote: Gadget Portal wrote: Ren Toxx wrote: Gadget Portal wrote: "We have an extensive process and we don't take everyone." "So you're not looking for any volunteers at all?" Your answer there seems to me a bit of a jump into (negative) conclussions, Gadget, and while I agree that theirs didn't sound any friendlier, if you're truly interested in something it's always good practice to develop a bit of a thick skin when trying to achieve it; a more logical follow-up would've been: “Ok. So how do I begin this extensive process?”. Maybe even add the good old courtesy “please” word, since in that context you were essentially asking for information (and maybe to someone who wasn't, in fact, the person responsible for providing it). I'll agree that you shouldn't have to jump through too many hoops, especially for something like volunteering... but the opposite is also true: you shouldn't be discouraged too easily :smileywink: You're missing the point (And yes, they were responsible for providing it- I asked to talk to the person responsible for providing that sort of information, and they stepped up). Jasmin Helstein wrote: You only had one short discussion in group chat with one person that probably didn't know you and then it's easy to misunderstand someone. "You're not in our clique, so you're probably not good enough." seems such an unlikely thing to say, even if that's what the other person was thinking. I wouldn't feel so strongly about it. I can imagine they don't get exited just because someone claims to be able to fill a gap. If they don't know you what reason could they have to let you try anyway ? They don't know if you will be a good teacher, someone should take the time to see how you are doing, maybe you will quit after two or three attempts, you would probably have to be fitted in a schedule at the expense of someone else's time. So volunteer or not it would require time and effort from them as well. If you really want to teach you may get to know the group a little better first and let them get to know you better as well. Except I don't. You're not only missing the point, you're making up totally random ones. And ignoring previous replies in the thread. Here's my reply for both of you; This is not a case of me wanting to fulfill my lifelong dream of teaching. This is not me wanting to take over a position in this place. I was told they need help, so I wandered over to check it out when I got free time. This is not some strong desire of mine that I want to fulfill. When I got to the sim, they had signs up and tip jars out, BEGGING for help. They have affiliate vendors everywhere, with crap saying all proceeds pay for the sim, and it's non-profit, yadda yadda. So, I shrugged and decided to be a nice guy and offer help. The response I got was to f-off, because I'm not good enough. And that's fine, I simple won't help. It's not my loss. Doesn't bother me at all. I'm still in script help groups, and people can still come to me anyway. I'll just keep doing what I've been doing. What it did do was it surprised me, considering all the begging they're doing on their sim. They're begging for help, then they blow you off when your help isn't in the form of cash. That gives me insight into the group's attitude and I thought other people should know about it. Asking for volunteers/instructors is not the same thing as asking for help paying their tier. From the word "go" you made an assumption concerning the sort of help they were asking for and when you were told that they have a process for adding in new instructors, you assumed that it was a brush off. Each and every time this is pointed out to you, you dance around and around, coming up with more and more excuses and pointing to additional information which has no bearing on the core issue here: You made a mistaken assumption, got a response you did not like and now have blown it quite out of proportion. There's a reason I retired completely from any sort of mentoring, Instructing and colunteer helping in Second Life - and it's not the general attitude of the groups. It's not the "Gimmie help NAO" attitude of some of the newer users .... It's the attitude of some of the "helpers" when they are given a response they do not like, be it from a group they felt needed help or from a newer user who prefers to learn on their own. Each and every place has their systems and criteria - deal with it and quit acting as if you were maligned. It was a brush off- I wasn't told anything about the process, I wasn't given an application, I wasn't told who a better contact would be, and all of my follow up questions were ignored. That's the textbook definition of a brush off. What do users learning on their own have to do with anything at all in this entire thread? You're coming across as angry and butthurt, and you just said you're not even part of any of these groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 If it is the group that I think it is, they don't pay instructors. Students are expected to tip the teachers. The owner of the sim actually sells their own stuff there and they also rent out a number of shops at a for profit rate. There mall is full. Most of the freebies they give out are the same freebies you can get a lot of places on the grid, they are just repackaged with the logo of the place. Every where you go there are large signs asking for tips too. It isn't quite as altruistic as they want you to believe as the hook to get traffic for the regular business conducted there is the 'free classes'. Now don't get me wrong, it is nice they offer classes but so do other places that aren't so commercial and really are not for profit venues. As someone who has worked managing a RL non profit for many years, I can say that to ignore a potential volunteer, even if they didn't mean it quite as Gadget took it, is a huge mistake. If that person represented the organization they could and should have handled it much better. A simple IM to Gadget saying "thanks for your interest but we don't have any more teaching slots open" would have been the thing to do if they really didn't want or need his services. Better yet they could have explained what the process was to become a teacher there and then let him decide if he wanted to continue to pursue it. Instead they have now alienated a potential supporter and gotten some negative publicity. This is only my opinon based on RL experience of course, but while I don't agree with Gadget all the time, in this case I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Ceriano Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Any organization can have an employee that doesn't do a good job from time to time and hasn't been caught at it yet. Even good employees have off days... maybe this person didn't reply back to you because they were suddenly called away to deal with some unexpected RL issue. I have no idea, but really... neither do you. Why don't you go over this person's head... talk to the owner and if you get the same reaction from them, then maybe your assumption is correct. But, until that time, you're really only speculating as to the nature of the organization itself. Just because you're feeling rejected doesn't mean that is indeed the case. If, instead of taking that step, you choose to just continue arguing with people here about it, then I'd seriously have to question how ingenuous you are about really wanting to help. ...Dres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 Amethyst Jetaime wrote: If it is the group that I think it is, they don't pay instructors. Students are expected to tip the teachers. The owner of the sim actually sells their own stuff there and they also rent out a number of shops at a for profit rate. There mall is full. Most of the freebies they give out are the same freebies you can get a lot of places on the grid, they are just repackaged with the logo of the place. Every where you go there are large signs asking for tips too. It isn't quite as altruistic as they want you to believe as the hook to get traffic for the regular business conducted there is the 'free classes'. Now don't get me wrong, it is nice they offer classes but so do other places that aren't so commercial and really are not for profit venues. As someone who has worked managing a RL non profit for many years, I can say that to ignore a potential volunteer, even if they didn't mean it quite as Gadget took it, is a huge mistake. If that person represented the organization they could and should have handled it much better. A simple IM to Gadget saying "thanks for your interest but we don't have any more teaching slots open" would have been the thing to do if they really didn't want or need his services. Better yet they could have explained what the process was to become a teacher there and then let him decide if he wanted to continue to pursue it. Instead they have now alienated a potential supporter and gotten some negative publicity. This is only my opinon based on RL experience of course, but while I don't agree with Gadget all the time, in this case I do. When Amethyst agrees with me, you know it's a pretty significant. Dresden Ceriano wrote: Any organization can have an employee that doesn't do a good job from time to time and hasn't been caught at it yet. Even good employees have off days... maybe this person didn't reply back to you because they were suddenly called away to deal with some unexpected RL issue. I have no idea, but really... neither do you. Why don't you go over this person's head... talk to the owner and if you get the same reaction from them, then maybe your assumption is correct. But, until that time, you're really only speculating as to the nature of the organization itself. Just because you're feeling rejected doesn't mean that is indeed the case. If, instead of taking that step, you choose to just continue arguing with people here about it, then I'd seriously have to question how ingenuous you are about really wanting to help. ...Dres That's just it. I really don't want to help. I'm not normally a generous person. At the time I was feeling helpful, so I volunteered. I got the distinct impression volunteers weren't wanted, so, I'll spend my free time trolling forums instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Ceriano Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Gadget Portal wrote: I'll spend my free time trolling forums instead. That's probably more fun anyway. ...Dres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Gadget Portal wrote: Solar Legion wrote: Gadget Portal wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: Gadget seems to having a bit of a rough time in this thread, so I'll jump in. If I believe that I have some skills that would be of use or benefit to a group that teaches those skills, and if I offer my free services to the group for that purpose, I would not expect to be ignored, which is what happened to Gadget. The very least the group manager could do is take me seriously. If they don't need me for whatever reason, that would be fine. All they need to do is treat me with some respect and say so in a respectful way. Judging by what I've gathered from Gadget's posts, he wasn't told that they didn't need any more teachers/instructoirs, and nobody said anything along the lines of, "I know who you are and I'd rather you weren't an instructor here". After the first one or two sentences, he was simply ignored. The person is free to do that, of course. After all, there are many nasty and rude people in the world, and SL is no different. And Gadget is quite right when he says that, because it was a group manager, it reflects on the group as a whole. I really can't see any reason to find fault with Gadget. If he's being truthful, then he was treated shabbily and it was worth posting about. If it's the group I have in mind, it's been known for its less-than-respectful internal ways in the past, so what happened to gadget doesn't surprise me at all. Phil, you're the man. Expressed my situation so much more concisely and diplomatically than I did. You're absolutely spot on that being told to go away for whatever reason would have been fine. Like I said before, it's my god given right to be a douche bag, and if there are consequences for that in other venues, I'll deal with them. The issue is in being fed a line and then ignored. Especially when it's a group that runs entirely on volunteers! What volunteer group blows off a potential volunteer? It doesn't get much more counter-productive than that. And I gotta comment on the bolded part- why does no one else see that? Group managers reflect on a group. Otherwise, why make them a manager? Group managers in Second Life exist to - GASP! - manage the group. They are not Public Relations officers, they are not the Owner. They are generally the Department Heads. Some groups set up specific manager roles for HR/PRGeneral use - these are the roles that "reflect on the group as a whole." To use a very loose example here: Many of the major ISPs and Mobile Phone providers outsource their technical support/customer service call lines to call centers across the US and the world. The quality of these calls (and the occasional manager escalation) is not a reflection of the outsourcing company. It is a reflection of the call center. When you have a large scale group in Second Life, you end up breaking it up into different departments that are the equivalent of that call center. The users in each department are often chosen by the department heads or managers, not the group as a whole. You expect the department manager to represent the entire group. In reality, said manager does not do such, nor can he/she speak for the entire group outside of notifying you of their procedures. I know one thing: if I held the same viewpoint as you do, I'd have long ago left Second Life as a whole. You're an even more negative person than me. Anyway, if the guy wasn't public relations, he shouldn't have stepped up to the plate to do the job. Again, it still reflects on the group. You don't let the janitor answer tech calls if he doesn't have the skillset, why would you let your unrelated "department head" field these types of questions. It's a failed argument defending them. Welcome to Second Life Gadget. Everyone by default can respond in a group chat session. That's just how it is. The failed argument here, is your own for failing to notice this basic setup. So no, the response you get does not reflect on the group as a whole - sorry, it's not set up out of the box to restrict chat to appointed representatives and guess what? Most groups won't set it up that way. Get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Gadget Portal wrote: Solar Legion wrote: Nope - you "blew it" by overreacting, making assumptions and thinking that a single person can speak for an entire group. Not the way it works. ... How does one even respond to this? It's actually lowering my IQ. I didn't blow my chance at anything, they did. I was offering to help them, not the other way around. I didn't assume anything, being ignored is fact. And a person in charge of a group speaks for the group's policies and methods, or that person shouldn't be in charge. I'd hate to see you in any kind of work environment, thinking nothing your employees/managers do reflects on the business. Gee gadget, don't like reality much, do you? You made an assumption concerning the type of help they were looking for, you made an assumption concerning how Second Life group dynamixs work, you have blown the response you got utterly out of proportion. I syppose that, because of all of this, you never call tech support, you never shop anywhere .... Again, welcome to Second Life. Get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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