Griefer, estate banning people inc estate managers from a sim ?

[Phil Deakins]

I'm with you, Alicia.

 

To the OP:

I don't see how you can be certain that it isn't one of the estate managers doing it. If LL could find out who is doing it, they'd have told the owner, and you could be certain that it's not an employee. But, if they haven't done that, I know of no way for you to be certain that it isn't an employee.

[Perrie Juran]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I'm with you, Alicia.

 

To the OP:

I don't see how you can be certain that it isn't one of the estate managers doing it. If LL could find out who is doing it, they'd have told the owner, and you could be certain that it's not an employee. But, if they haven't done that, I know of no way for you to be certain that it isn't an employee.

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I'm not certain that LL would say who it is. 

I could possibly see them saying it was one of the Estate Mgrs,  but I'm not sure.

LL does not tell us the outcomes of AR's, nor do they get involved in Resident disputes.

If LL was to name and shame the individual would go against their way of doing things.

 

[Cerise Sorbet]

One other possibility is a buggy or insecure scripted security object. Now that these can change estate level access, broken ones are more annoying than ever.

[Lucretia Brandenburg]

when estate manager rights are revoked, a manager receives a notice it was done. 

[Phil Deakins]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I'm with you, Alicia.

 

To the OP:

I don't see how you can be certain that it isn't one of the estate managers doing it. If LL could find out who is doing it, they'd have told the owner, and you could be certain that it's not an employee. But, if they haven't done that, I know of no way for you to be certain that it isn't an employee.

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I'm not certain that LL would say who it is. 

I could possibly see them saying it was one of the Estate Mgrs,  but I'm not sure.

LL does not tell us the outcomes of AR's, nor do they get involved in Resident disputes.

If LL was to name and shame the individual would go against their way of doing things.

 

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You're right, but since a Linden got involved, and got banned, I feel sure that they would inform the owner if it's an employee. I am also sure that they would inform the owner that they've found out who or what was doing it, etc. without giving a name if it's a user other than an employee. I doubt that they would just keep quiet if they found the problem and it was a person.

[Malanya]

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Kenbro Utu wrote:

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Malanya wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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GothGirl Demonia wrote:

 

Again this comes from someone who woke up logged into SL to find the entire inventory deleted by a griefer, profile changed, and being told by Linden Lab less than 48 hours after that inventory could not be reverted which just proves that LL needs better security on players accounts, and better protection for players who spend real moeny in this simulation type MMO.

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In another thread you said you were Phished.

Phishing is not a Security problem on Linden Labs end.

That is a Security problem in your own brain.

 

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Yes, reason seems to change with the flow of whatever thread posting too, just as I thought she couldn't come inworld anymore..from another thread.

Nice info she threw out there, that was stupid. Yet all her posts are about griefing and account stealing, etc. Makes me wonder..

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At least it didn't have any Bold lettering and Caps this time; although I appreciate her use of it, as I know instantly to skip over the message on sight.  

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Yeah, lol, that's actually the first thing that came to mind, where did those text effects go?

[Malanya]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I'm with you, Alicia.

 

To the OP:

I don't see how you can be certain that it isn't one of the estate managers doing it. If LL could find out who is doing it, they'd have told the owner, and you could be certain that it's not an employee. But, if they haven't done that, I know of no way for you to be certain that it isn't an employee.

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I'm not certain that LL would say who it is. 

I could possibly see them saying it was one of the Estate Mgrs,  but I'm not sure.

LL does not tell us the outcomes of AR's, nor do they get involved in Resident disputes.

If LL was to name and shame the individual would go against their way of doing things.

 

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You're right, but since a Linden got involved, and got banned, I feel sure that they would inform the owner if it's an employee. I am also sure that they would inform the owner that they've found out who or what was doing it, etc. without giving a name if it's a user other than an employee. I doubt that they would just keep quiet if they found the problem and it was a person.

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It could always be a problem with staff, region managers and so on, that's always the first thing I would think of. As you said, the other things mentioned makes me think it's a bit more and can an estate manager ban a Linden? I don't think so unless they were using a viewer that allows over ride of controls. They just say words like "if, could have, seems like" in responses but no definite reason, just that it's been tested and if there was an issue that it's fixed. No one is going to admit there is a security get around, I highly doubt it.

[Tari Landar]

While you wait for LL to help you, I would do as already suggested. Remove all estate rights for everyone. This won't tip off certain people, while leaving others with the abilities like removing one at a time would. Then slowly let people back in one by one. If estate managers get angry at you for doing this, it would be a red flag, for me. Most, as long as they aren't doing something they shouldn't, will understand and be happy to help fix the problem.

Aside from that there really isn't anything you can do while you wait. If LL is looking into it, you've just gotta kinda sit tight. It is entirely possible that it's a hack, of some sort. But right now it's just as possible that it's not. You can't rule anything out. Saying they told you they're not doing it, and you saying that means 100% they aren't, just doesn't make sense. You really can't know that. Of course no one would like to believe someone on staff would do such a thing, but it's not unheard of. People do stupid stuff like that all the time. I've seen people wipe out entire sims for what seemed like no good reason.

Yes security issues like this have happened before, and could happen again. They're not widely discussed because it's a security issue and the more it's talked about the more curious idiots get. That can lead to more problems. So it's bets to have it taken care of quickly, and as quietly as possible. I don't think it happens that often though. I do think those cases are very very rare. I honestly don't think it's your issue, either. I do think it's someone on staff. I think that because it's the more likely scenario. Only LL can help you figure it out. Until then, I'd be protecting the sim/group as best as possible. To me, that would mean eliminating estate rights for all but the most needed 2, tops, 1 even if need be.

[Perrie Juran]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I'm with you, Alicia.

 

To the OP:

I don't see how you can be certain that it isn't one of the estate managers doing it. If LL could find out who is doing it, they'd have told the owner, and you could be certain that it's not an employee. But, if they haven't done that, I know of no way for you to be certain that it isn't an employee.

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I'm not certain that LL would say who it is. 

I could possibly see them saying it was one of the Estate Mgrs,  but I'm not sure.

LL does not tell us the outcomes of AR's, nor do they get involved in Resident disputes.

If LL was to name and shame the individual would go against their way of doing things.

 

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You're right, but since a Linden got involved, and got banned, I feel sure that they would inform the owner if it's an employee. I am also sure that they would inform the owner that they've found out who or what was doing it, etc. without giving a name if it's a user other than an employee. I doubt that they would just keep quiet if they found the problem and it was a person.

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We don't really know the powers a Linden has when they log in.  Are they by default in "God Mode."  Are they impervious to attacks and hacks?  Do they have their kryptonite?

Linden's can do just about anything they want to do.  I think it is more as a courtesy that they 'ask' first.  Like when they asked for mesh samples to use for testing on the deformer project.  They could have just taken any dang thing they wanted to.

 

7.2 You grant certain Content licenses to Linden Lab by submitting your Content to the Service.

"You understand that this license enables Linden Lab to display, distribute, promote, and improve the Service. You agree that the license includes the right to copy, analyze and use any of your Content as Linden Lab may deem necessary or desirable for purposes of debugging, testing, or providing support or development services in connection with the Service and future improvements to the Service."

[Keyeung Attis]

 

I can see why, and LL thought it was one of the estate managers, but were not able to find any evidence to supoprt this, I know it makes sense and it is the most liklely explanation, but this is happening when none of the estate managers are online, and since only the owner can add people to estate management as far as I know etc. The current satff have been with the region as managers for around two years and the general consensus is that it is unlikely that it would be one of these personel.

 

 

[Alicia Sautereau]

Like drama is restricted to nub avi`s

Griefing is banning every one, only estate managers getting banned narrows it to a staff member and by the sound of things you are not an estate manager not the estate owner

Better point him/her to here as this is now hearsay

[Keyeung Attis]

 

I thought I made it clear on an earlier post it is not just the estate managers that are being banned see title for clarification (estate banning people including estate managers), it is some of the role play community as well, the owner is well aware of this thread as I placed it here on their behalf. From going through all the postings it seems the two likely candidates are a security exploit by way of a third party viewer or a disgruntled staff member on the estate list. 

 

[Phil Deakins]

The problem with removing the rights of all estate managers, and then reinstating them one by one, is that all of them will know it's being done, so, if one of them is the guilty party, s/he need only wait for the whole process to finish before doing it again.

Removing the rights of all estate managers is really only useful to ascertain whether or not the culprit is one of them, and even that would rely on the actual person, if it's not an employee, not knowing that the test is going on. If it turns out that it is one of them, the only way to handle it is to let them all go and get new staff. It would be unfortunate, but, if LL can't find out what's happening, there is no realistic way of discovering which one it doing it.

[Alicia Sautereau]

We gave the solution
Remove all estate managers, if it stops, i t was staff, if not, it`s an exploit

I`m done

[Tari Landar]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

The problem with removing the rights of all estate managers, and then reinstating them one by one, is that all of them will know it's being done, so, if one of them is the guilty party, s/he need only wait for the whole process to finish before doing it again.

Removing the rights of all estate managers is really only useful to ascertain whether or not the culprit is one of them, and even that would rely on the actual person, if it's not an employee, not knowing that the test is going on. If it turns out that it is one of them, the only way to handle it is to let them all go and get new staff. It would be unfortunate, but, if LL can't find out what's happening, there is no realistic way of discovering which one it doing it.

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No, you won't likely find out exactly who is doing it simply by removing estate rights and returning them slowly. The first thing you need to do though, in a situation like this is figure out WHERE it's starting. That's why removing estate rights will be helpful. If it continues on, after no one has rights, then it wasn't staff. Then you can move on to figure out what exploit is causing it-and you'll need LL for that. If it does stop, then you know for certain it was staff. Then you have the painful and tedious task of attempting to figure out who it was.

It's possible you'll never know. But it is better to know if it's an exploit, or just someone being a jerk. LL won't help you if it's someone being a jerk, well most likely they won't. They'll tell you the same thing we have, remove rights, problem solved. That's their solution to that kind of problem. I know it is because we had that problem once, lol. LL is not helpful at all when it's not an exploit, they treat it as resident to resident dispute. They consider it griefing, but minimal at best, and since we have the tools to not give people estate rights, we're on our own(and I do understand why they say it, whether or not I like it as a solution, lol).

If it's an exploit though, LL can, and will help. I've seen that too, but not from personal experience. Someone I know, and a set of sims I frequent had that problem once. LL was able to fix whatever was causing it. I don't know how, and I doubt they'd tell you anyway. Best to not share such exploits, imo.

More times than not, it's someone being a jerk. People don't often want to accept that, assuming because someone's been here forever, or known them forever, or has a vested interest in sl they couldn't possibly. Sometimes people that have been here the longest, are the worst at this kind of thing. They've been around long enough to know what will and won't, irritate people, or what will and won't get under the radar of LL. So, never count them out, unless you're right there with them at their pc. Someone that was once a very good friend of mine got banned, after 5 years of being here, for acting like a jerkwad all of a sudden. Not a single soul suspected, and we defended him tooth and nail. That is, until he got slapped with rl legal issues. Then we're all like 

He got in some deep, deep doo doo, all right under our noses too. Apparently had been doing it longer than we thought even. You really never can be too sure.

 

[Malanya]

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Keyeung Attis wrote:

 

I can see why, and LL thought it was one of the estate managers, but were not able to find any evidence to supoprt this, I know it makes sense and it is the most liklely explanation, but this is happening when none of the estate managers are online, and since only the owner can add people to estate management as far as I know etc. The current satff have been with the region as managers for around two years and the general consensus is that it is unlikely that it would be one of these personel.

 

 

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If you remove estate manager rights, I would bet the people would know something was up so I doubt that would be effective. This forum can be seen by anyone too, so who knows who has read it that is part of your staff.

@Alicia Griefers don't take down the whole estate all the time so it could be anybody with or without reason. The only thing is to let the region owner deal with LL because they will have more pull than you making reports. LL doesn't announce to anyone when they take action against another resident.

[Phil Deakins]

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Malanya wrote:

If you remove estate manager rights, I would bet the people would know something was up so I doubt that would be effective. This forum can be seen by anyone too, so who knows who has read it that is part of your staff.

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If all estate manager rights are removed, but not mentioned here, then it's very unlikely that a non-manager culprit will realise that the test is on. So, if the problem stops, the chances are it was an estate manager, if the problem doesn't stop, then it was certainly someone else. Either way, unless LL finds that it's an exploit, the only way to deal with it is to do what many have said in this thread and remove all estate manager rights for a while and see what happens. Perhaps the owner has already done it.

[Malanya]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Malanya wrote:

If you remove estate manager rights, I would bet the people would know something was up so I doubt that would be effective. This forum can be seen by anyone too, so who knows who has read it that is part of your staff.

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If all estate manager rights are removed, but not mentioned here, then it's very unlikely that a non-manager culprit will realise that the test is on. So, if the problem stops, the chances are it was an estate manager, if the problem doesn't stop, then it was certainly someone else. Either way, unless LL finds that it's an exploit, the only way to deal with it is to do what many have said in this thread and remove all estate manager rights for a while and see what happens. Perhaps the owner has already done it.

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I understand Phil, it's just that I don't understand how a Linden can be banned with region controls. Yes I do understand removing people from estate rights, but I think only LL and their testing staff will be able to find out what's going on when they check the integrity of the region. They will give a summary of what they "think" could have possibly happened without naming residents names. It could be an issue where a staff member is acting out because of something but they could also be using something else besides estate rights. Who knows, maybe the OP will never get to the bottom (I hope he does) and this will not be solved in a satisfactory way.

[Astrid Kaufmat]

who has those powers? maybe there is a joker in the management ? ok jokes a part

maybe this is something related to some script that those griefers use

It might be some exploit that they found.

For istance have you ever had on your sim griefers that would fill your parcel with unwanted objects even if you set no rezz?

I don't post here the youtube links to not promove those lamers' stuff but look for them yourself on youtube and see, maybe they added in some lame viewer also this feature exploiting something.

We'd need really a tighter policy for Secondlife viewers!!!!!

[Keyeung Attis]

 

Hi all,

Just an update, thank you all for your input, beyond confirming that it was not a staff member I m not allowed to disclose the findings or what the problem was, to the best of our knowlege it has been delt with.

 

thanks again

 

 

[Nova Convair]

That, I dont believe

But you closed the case and don't want to tell anything - too bad but your decision.

[Perrie Juran]

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Nova Convair wrote:

That, I dont believe

But you closed the case and don't want to tell anything - too bad but your decision.

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Agreed.

Totally useless and unhelpful to any one in the future who might encounter this problem.

[Alicia Sautereau]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Nova Convair wrote:

That, I dont believe

But you closed the case and don't want to tell anything - too bad but your decision.

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Agreed.

Totally useless and unhelpful to any one in the future who might encounter this problem.

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Also agree

"to the best of our knowlege it has been delt with."

Sounds more like staff as you confirmed it by confirming it wasn`t staff but unwilling to say it wasn`t.

 

Thanks for all the fish.