OPEN PETITON REINTRODUCTION OF EXCHANGE COMPANIES IN SECOND LIFE

[oberon Zuta]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

What LL want is a Verified PayPal account.    The

Knowledge Base article

is misleading -- it tries to be helpful but it gives the misleading impression that you must have a credit or debit card to verify your paypal account.    

What I suggest is that you contact German PayPal and ask them for their advice on how to go about setting up and v

erifying your account

with them.    

I see the

English PayPal site

explains, 

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Verification increases the security of the PayPal network. Verified members have successfully completed PayPal's verification system to establish their identity with us. The verification process varies by country or region. For example, in the US, a Verified member has confirmed a bank account with PayPal

. In Germany, a Verified member has completed a bank transfer or the Expanded Use process.

In most countries and regions where PayPal is available, a verified member has added a credit card and completed the Expanded Use process

---

I really think you should be talking to PayPal. LL want a verified PayPal account. How you verify it depends, as PayPal says, on what country you are in.

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I veryfied my PayPal account - i linked it with my banc account, they sent some cents two times and i confirmed it -

 

[Innula Zenovka]

And you can you still not make it a payment method with LL, even though it is verified?

[Jenniferoo Fairport]

For those wondering why we in Europe have an issue with LL exchange it's that they only sell in US$ so if I buy from them I get not only their fee but also a fee from my bank for converting the currency.

Best exchange rate? How the hell do I knw I've always bought my L$ in GBP - I somehow feel that when the traders see a fall of in product sales they''ll quickly reverse this

[Innula Zenovka]

I am confused, Jenniferoo.    When I cash out to my PayPal account, PayPal automatically convert the dollars for me, without charging a fee (though I'm at their mercy for the exchange rate, of course), and neither do they charge me a fee to transfer the £ to my bank account.

Do you have a dollar PayPal account?

 Ignore that.   I hadn't read what you wrote properly.    Nevertheless, while I haven't bought L$ for a long time, I have checked rates the other way round, and certainly I don't think I've been getting a significantly better deal by selling L$ for £ on Virwox than I would have done by selling them for US$ on the Lindex and then having PayPal handle the conversion.   For me, the speed of the transation has always been the attraction.

I've just been checking my PayPal history and when LL last collected my Premium membership, PayPal took the £ out of my bank and converted it to US$ for me, without a fee.  

[Trinity Yazimoto]

Hello Oberon.

all i see in the quotes you posted just mean that the rant comes mainly from Europe.. And yes, it comes mainly from Europe, althought some come from Brazil...

but this only mean that the pb affect mainly europeans. and so its legitimate to say that the rant comes mainly from Europe.There is nothing wrong with that.. like there is nothing wrong for the europeans to complain..

there is nothing bad with this.. its just normal...Of course, noone can say the rant comes from Alaska, since there is no pb there... and noone is saying the rant is illegitimate....its normal to rant when a pb happen..

but some things have been said in the wrong way from europeans pp.. and in the other hand, some things are barely conceivable for most of the us pp...

the things said in the wrong way :

  --- the belief that TPE are the only one solution... i dont think so... if LL improve their Lindex, noone would need TPE (except the ones who are in a rush for cashing out but this is another pb, let s keep focusing on the pb for just buying l$).

 ---- the belief LL had the choice to do... i dont think so... if laws change, LL has to be in conformity with this one.. on top we all know that among all laws the ones related to money are the most kept under surveillance...

 on the other hand, some us pp seem to not being able to understand the pb for a lot of europeans : 

   --- in some european countries, banks doesnt give easily cards, whatever they are debit or credit...These countries have laws to protect pp against themselves (well that s what they say.. this doesnt mean i agree) and in some of them, there is a law who protect pp who are in overdebt... in such case, the law erase all the debt for someone and so credit companies and banks are not paid... so banks now doesnt want to give easily cards now because they are afraid to loose money..

    --- in some european countries the ATM are cards who allow the person to cash out from bank machines, but only the machines owns by their banks and not other ones .. and cant in any case be linked to paypal..

So keeping saying to this persons to link they paypal to a credit card or debit card is just pointless... 

In Europe, pp doesnt have any power against banks.. all that banks do are under the law and so they are allowed to do it...keeping asking to these persons they must force their bank to give them a credit/debit card is just silly.... bec it doesnt work like this...its easy to write in a forum but its another story when its about to deal with a bank in Europe.

PP in US must understand that for us European, the way banks work in US isnt conceivable for us too... To every pp here in my surround, in France, that i told about how us bank works, every of them open wide their eyes.. and keep saying "how could this be ? they are crazy ?"...

so i guess its just a cultural misunderstood....

we all have to agree, that LL is a US company, and we like it or not, this one has to comply with US laws and not european ones...So if the US laws ask to LL to not accept TPE this one has to obbey.

We have to aknowledge that TPE or not, this is not the pb, but just pp need ways to buy their l$ without needing a credit/debit card.. and if LL would allow these other ways via their paypal, noone would need TPE... so focusing on TPE is useless.... 

PP have to accept that ranting for pp who have problems is normal and legitimate.. after all, all their SL is now compromised or at least, promised to a big change soon...

on the other hand, pp who have reasons to rant, have to understand, that noone here has the power to change LL decisions.. and on top, LL employees doesnt hang out often here in the forum... i think submiting tickets would be more efficient.

at last, for you Oberon, after some searches, ive found this...http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Linden-Dollars-L/how-does-men-get-L-when-you-cant-get-paypal-to-work-and-do-not/qaq-p/2008227

look at miranda answer.

i know for sure, that there are pp without any card that have paypal linked to their SL account... How this is possible ? idk... but i know it exists..

Maybe Innula had a beguining of answer suggesting to see directly with paypal company.

to finish... i dont have a lot of trust in LL generosity... but i trust firmly that as every other capitalist company, their purpose is to make money.... and they would be insane if they dont provide soon a solution for all this pp who wont be able to bring money to their company.... This is just good sense... maybe it will take some weeks... but if they dont do it... this would be the more insane things ive never seen for a company... i may be wrong... but if so, this would mean that they are even worst manager than im assuming.

And sorry for the long post...

[Trinity Yazimoto]

ah and i just found this too : http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/How-to-Linking-your-PayPal-without-a-creditcard/m-p/2010529

that sound really helpful and the poster made the test and it worked..

it seems that the lil tip that makes the difference is too convert the euro ammount on the paypal to usd... on top of verifying the paypal account of course.

hope this will help

[Perrie Juran]

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oberon Zuta wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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So, what you are saying is that you don't have a CC or debit card... does your bank offer a debit card? If so, link it up... if not.. what backwoods bank do you use?

Ok thank you for your post. So - what is an accepted debit card in this damn jungle of debit cards?

I accept that LL needs to cover the PayPal account by a debit card - but WHY they do this, i have NO IDEA.

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PayPal

Often the initial agreement can't be set up due to an unverified PayPal account. To use your PayPal account with Linden Lab, it must be verified and have a credit card on file as a backup funding source.

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Billing/ta-p/700037

 

I tried digging out the info on PayPal but it's been so long since I set up my account and my google-fu is failing me.  The difference is this, what you have when you add a Credit Card to your account is what I will call a "guaranteed account."  It is a step up from a verified account.  (these are my terms here but this explanation is pretty accurate).

In the fine print of the PayPal TOS it states that should you not have enough money in your Primary Funding Source (your Bank Account), that they can automatically charge your Credit Card.  By requiring that you have a linked Credit Card it reduces the risk to Linden Lab that your payment will fail. 

On one of these Threads about the TPE's I posted the terms from World of Warcraft.  They also require your Paypal account be backed up with a Credit Card in order to use PayPal to pay for them.  So this is not an uncommon practice.

As far as why some Debit Cards work and some don't, it must have to do with the code numbers. 

http://www.mint.com/blog/trends/credit-card-code-01202011/

When I used my first Debit Card at stores, the machines would ask me "debit or credit?"  I had misplaced that card and to be safe I cancelled it.  The new Card my bank sent me had different numbers and the machines automatically knew it was a Debit Card and would prompt me for my PIN number.  I also have a Credit Card from the same bank and it has different identifying numbers.  The machines automatically know it is a credit card.

Apparently there are no strict rules on how a bank number their Cards.  So my guess is that some of these Debit cards 'slip through' as Credit Cards because of the numbers that are used.

If you want to learn more try googling the subject but be prepared for a headache.  But for another example about the coding, try Wikipedia.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_stripe_card

[Dillon Levenque]

The answer to this question—"in France, that i told about how us bank works, every of them open wide their eyes.. and keep saying "how could this be ? they are crazy ?"..."—is "Yes. Yes we are.":smileywink:

You are of course correct that most of us have some difficulties understanding how things work in places we don't live. I guess in one way this whole TPE discussion has been at least slightly beneficial. I've learned more about banking and buying practices in other countries in the past week than in my whole life up til now (international finance is not a subject I study).

It is good that there is some light being produced along with all the heat we're generating. No heat being generated by you: you've been the soul of politeness the whole time. I meant the rest of us. Ashlene McMinnar, by taking the time to go through the process (and then document same) of getting LL to accept Paypal without a credit card certainly generated some light and I hope that same method might work for other people who have bank accounts but no credit card (although I personally do not much like Paypal).

 

ETA Ashlene's name

[Innula Zenovka]

I really think that LL have -- what a surprise -- tried to be helpful and ended up muddying the waters no end.

PayPal say, in terms, that  "Verification increases the security of the PayPal network. Verified members have successfully completed PayPal's verification system to establish their identity with us. The verification process varies by country or region"

I am not sure what a guaranteed account is, because British PayPal don't have them.   The screenshot linked to here is the only hit it get when I search for the term.   My account is verified,  because I carried out the proceedure outlined here,  and described in more detail here.

No mention anywhere of needing a credit card to get verified.   I entered my debit card as a secondary payment source, which is a bit redundant since it's linked to the same bank account for which they hold details, so if one fails, the other will, but I only added that because I was fed up it reminding me it wanted a secondary payment source.

So I really think people should concentrate on how PayPal in their own country want them to get verified, and not worry about what LL have to say on the matter.    That, combined with Ashlene McMinnar's walkthrough that Trinity references above, How To: Linking Your PayPal Without A Credit Card , could well solve a lot problems for people.

[Perrie Juran]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

I really think that LL have -- what a surprise -- tried to be helpful and ended up muddying the waters no end.

PayPal say, in terms, that  

"Verification increases the security of the PayPal network. Verified members have successfully completed PayPal's verification system to establish their identity with us.

The verification process varies by country or region

"

I am not sure what a guaranteed account is, because British PayPal don't have them.   The

screenshot linked to here

is the only hit it get when I search for the term.   My account is verified,  because I carried out

the proceedure outlined here

,  and described in

more detail here

.

No mention anywhere of needing a credit card to get verified.   I entered my debit card as a secondary payment source, which is a bit redundant since it's linked to the same bank account for which they hold details, so if one fails, the other will, but I only added that because I was fed up it reminding me it wanted a secondary payment source.

So I really think people should concentrate on how PayPal in their own country want them to get verified, and not worry about what LL have to say on the matter.    That, combined with Ashlene McMinnar's walkthrough that Trinity references above,

How To: Linking Your PayPal Without A Credit Card 

, could well solve a lot problems for people.

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As I said, I am guessing but it is an educated guess.  Reading through all the varied experiences and success rates people are saying they have had, apparently the system isn't perfect.

I have had credit card purchases fail on line.  I don't think anyone is immune from this, both buyers and sellers.  After many years in retail business I've seen and heard a lot of stuff.  So nothing surprises me any more.

[oberon Zuta]

Hi Trinty - see, what i like at your posts is, that you really try to help ... it seems that the point will be to set the primary currency in US Dollar and to charge minimum 25 - 30 of it. I will try this - remember at our first discussion about that, we were talking only about the 25$ to charge.

Because the credit card window apears always if the charge of paypal is too less for finishing the payment of a buy.

It will be funny this Free Trade Agreement between EU and USA ... maybe this new Laws are related to some international adjustings of Laws ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU%E2%80%93US_Free_Trade_Agreement

Hello there 'waves' - over the pond ...

 

 

[Innula Zenovka]

This blog post looks like good news for people wanting to buy L$: More Options For Buying Linden Dollars

A list of the exchanges authorised to sell (but not to buy) is to be found at Linden Lab Official:Linden Dollar (L$) Authorized Reseller Program

So this looks like half the problem solved, at least for most people.

[oberon Zuta]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

 

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:heart:

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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oberon Zuta wrote:

It is really bad - now, the only possibillity to earn L$ is to do escort service - but i guess it is not allowed in USA hehehe.

Congratulation Amethyst Jetaime! You won! I can hear your laugh over the pond. And my thoughts are - how silly must an individual be to act like her. Maybe i report them about infringment against racisms law. She called europians whiners and complainers instead to bring a solution - what will LL think aubout her proposal to kill the europians in SL? This is extremism. Who is she? Can she be a femal?

 

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Where in my post here did I call Euro's "whiners and complainers" in my post.  I said Europeans were complaining, which is a fact.

I also didn't not propose anything like killing Europeans, so please point out where you saw that.  You were the one that proposed an armed insurrection.  I just refused your suggestion and explained why.

I can not bring any solutions to this problem, nor can any one else.  ONLY LL can.  SL is not a democracy but a business.  Your choice is to stay in SL and accept that LL had to follow the law or leave.

I am of European decent, part of which is German, which makes me the same race as you are.  Euro's are not a different race from me solely due to the country they live in.  So look up the definition of racism since you don't know what it means and put away the race card.

And BTW, I am a female.  If you don't want to be bested by a female in a discussion, which apparently is what sticks in your crawl the most and reflects poorly on you not me, check your facts before making the wild allegations you did and continue to make. Females can use their brains and logic just like men and spot fallacies to arguments, incorrect facts and distorted views.  If you want to discuss things do so truthfully with facts rather than slandering other people. Calling other people names, slandering and disparaging others is the last defense of those that are wrong and is immature.  That's what children do on the playground.

Please be my guest and report me.

[oberon Zuta]

hey amethyst - the problem is solved and i have my solution. So all is okey-

obivously regocognized the responibels the problem and worked hard on a asolution . I am happy for that.

And btw - democracy u cant receive - u can only take it. And ... words like this to hear from a obivously proud citizen in the state with the first constitution on the globe .... made me thinking ...

But i close the case now.

 

Oberon

 

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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oberon Zuta wrote:

hey amethyst - the problem is solved and i have my solution. So all is okey-

obivously regocognized the responibels the problem and worked hard on a asolution . I am happy for that.

And btw - democracy u cant receive - u can only take it. And ... words like this to hear from a obivously proud citizen in the state with the first constitution on the globe .... made me thinking ...

But i close the case now.

 

Oberon

 

 

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By solved you mean you will be using the Lidex to cash out? Because you cant sell them on a TPE.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

By solved you mean you will be using the Lidex to cash out? Because you cant sell them on a TPE.

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 The OP made it clear, I thought, that his big problem was not being able to buy L$ rather than not being able to cash out.  So as far as he is concerned, the problem is pretty much solved, as it is for most people.   Those of us who cash out are, I think, in a pretty small minority compared with people who buy L$, and those of us who find having to use the Lindex to cash out anything more than an inconvenience (which I do) is a minority within the minority.   

Certainly there's a sizeable list of countries -- longer than i'd realised, certainly, before I looked at the PayPal site -- where cashing out with PayPal isn't an option unless you  have a US$ bank account,  and I hope LL do investigate adding other cash-out options like Skrill and Neteller to mitigate this problem, and that they also speed up (and make more reliable) PayPal cash-outs, but I do think that, for most people, the problem is pretty much solved.

I just hope LL don't now take their eye off the ball and leave it unsolved for peopel who're still affected.

 

[oberon Zuta]

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I nnula Zenovka wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

By solved you mean you will be using the Lidex to cash out? Because you cant sell them on a TPE.

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yes - solved means only to buy lindens. That was my problem. 

I didnt open the petition - i only posted it.

I will try now the Paypal Way next week then maybe cashout is also possibe. Credit Cards are not so important for many People here in Europe -of course i can't talk for all. But since short time we can buy a Prepayd Card with the MasterCard Symbol on it. U dont need to order it u only buy and load it and can suddenly use it . Maybe with this Card it would work too... The problem was only the time ... i tryed to buy lindens coz i had to pay the rent in 2 days and i could no more buy lindens - i was not prepared and not informed that this happens with the new ToS. Now i have more time, more space to find the way.

I dont make business here in Sl -not yet, maybe later.

[south Batista]

I cant live when i cant more raise money from sl free economy

[oberon Zuta]

Now i have my PayPal account without veryfying by Credit Card as PIOF, accepted payment methode...

 

I used the workaround from u r linked post above from Ashlene McMinnar. It works also from other countries then Netherlands.

Thank you very much, Innula, for your help and to protect me from doing escort service LOL ... even i don't really doubt that there is a market for alpha m's to f