Child avatars in Slavery/BDSM

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

---

Daniel Regenbogen wrote:

TristanMercer wrote: I CANNOT name names on this forum of said people involved in this. They were using Devpose BDSM equipment with sex animations in it, even if they were not being used. This clearly goes against the ToS/CS and as such, said avatars were abuse reported.

 

That's good, so you do the name and can update us if that person was disciplined (which in case of sexual ageplay will be the end of that account). If not, then I would say that LL checked closely, and maybe *do* make differences between being close to sexual stuff and actually using it.

 

I hope this is not against any rules, but I will copy&paste a support ticket question and the response from LL (names removed, not my ticket):

 

*.*.*

Details: There is no official policy statement on whether a child av is permitted to participate in the

activity described below.

NONSEXUAL bondage rp using cuffs, collars, cages, cells, leashes, blindfolds and gags to control, isolate, and

restrain the child av. Genital regions are fully covered before, during, after rp. No depiction of, reference to, or

description of sexual penetration, orgasm, sexual arousal, genitalia or fluid exchange before, during, or after rp.

 Hello ***,

As we posted in our blog about Age Play, every report will be handled on a case-by-case basis. However, if there is

nothing sexual at all about the actions being taken, then I do not see any reason that you could not partake in the

actions you mention. I would make sure that if you do choose to partake in this that you are extremely careful and

not venture into the sensual/sexual side of bondage with child avatars.

Regards,

*** Linden*.*.*

In general, this whole situation is borderline, and even if LL decides it is not against the TOS, I would definitely say it is stupid by the mentioned kid avatar to make himself so vulnerable by letting himself be caught. If nothing else, it makes the whole kids community look at least weird again, if not bad. We don't need that. About the ability to cam everywhere: in *that* case, no matter at all what was witnessed by invading the privacy of someone: shame on the invading person!

---

Your question did not ask if it was OK for a child avatar to be bound to BDSM furniture that has sex animations. 

As stated in the example given in the official policy, child avi's are not supposed be in proximity let alone on a sex bed or other sexualized object period.

  It does not qualify it by saying that something sexual  has to be going on.  The age play policy is clear on that as it is used as an example of what a TOS violation would be.  So if the avatar was a child, and they were bound on the the brand of BDSM furniture mentioned it would be a violation.  There is nothing borderline about it in my mind.

---

that is not what it is saying actually..other than the part where you said they are not allowed on those things..

they are not supossed to be placed there or in proximity to promote or cater to those things..

if they are not doing that they are fine..

they still  cannot get on them as you had said..

that part was kind of in the middle of what you said so i left it bolded..sounds strange without it in there hehehe

 

everything in the rules are about the acts or promotion of as well as pron gallery  type images of those things..

 

There are three key aspects involved in these materials or acts that are in breach of the Community Standards:

• Participation by Residents in lewd or sexual acts in which one or more of the avatars appears to represent minors (or the depiction of such acts in images, video, textures, or text) is a violation of the Community Standards.
• Promoting or catering to such behavior or representations violates our Community Standards. For instance, the placement of avatars appearing to represent minors in proximity to "sex beds" or other sexualized graphics, objects, or scripts would violate our Community Standards, as would the placement of sexualized "pose balls" or other content in areas depicting playgrounds or children's spaces.
• The graphic depiction of children in a sexual or lewd manner violates our Community Standards.

the main intention of the rule keeps getting left out and it makes it sound as if it is for all child avatars in every  situation..

even say a shopping situation..or just being in the room..when it is not aimed at those child  avatars..

 

it's all aiming at those that would be looking for sex or advertising it at any time or while in the proximity of sex beds or things like them..

that or people or places that would be setting up an enviroment for such role play..things of this nature..

 

 

[Daniel Regenbogen]

Ah now going the personal path? Well whatever: my avatar is 14 and has a partner - but doesn't go to things that (at least where *I* live) a 14yo real boy would have all the rights to do. Many kids use the partner field for best friends, siblings, business partners (yes, kids have businesses, how dare they) and so on.

The OP wrote about a fully scripted BDSM-Item - but also stated that the system was *not* active. Now, to play the devils advocate, an example for the possibility of such a situation. Kids (even in SL) often live with parents. What if the parents have such items in the family home? The kids would not be allowed to even visit the parents, because "there are things that *could* be used in a ToS violating way", no matter of the actual situation? What about me as a builder, who sometimes shops for stuff like animations. Would I be not allowed to shop for some sitting animations, because on the next vendor sexual animations are sold and the region is set to Adult? Nah. LL is smart enough to figure it out - and *they* have all what is needed to do so.

We don't know much about the original situation. Where did it happen? In a BDSM oriented place? In a place, where just some BDSM stuff happens to be? Who knows? A kid would have *nothing* to do in the first place and should face the consequences. In the second situation? Who will be the judge? Were you here already when Lia®s Leandros made the rounds? She propagated to search for kid avatars, go to them, strip naked next to them, take a picture and AR them for sexual ageplay. Of course all in the name of "Save the Children!". We had a long fight right here in this forum with her (hm, or was it in sluniverse?). Interestingly, her account is gone…

So don't get me wrong. I have no sympathy for child avatars in sexual bdsm situations, or in places that cater to such a lifestyle. What I don't like is the black/white bite reflex "OMG, there are ropes, there is a gag, there is … close to a kid avatar - this can only mean ONE thing!"

[Dresden Ceriano]

Let's face it, if this person using a kid avatar was doing anything inappropriate, LL will know about it or, at the very least, will be aware that they need to more closely monitor the person in question.  I have little doubt that they will take action if action is warranted.  Either way, we will never know the outcome.

As far as the broader questions that have been raised here, I'm with Leia... it's been hashed over so many times that it's not even very interesting anymore.

...Dres

[RiiCassidy]

But it depends on what one calls lewd, it's lewd to me and you but for another person it may not be a big deal. Which is why LL needs to be on point and detail with these types of situations.

I've slept in many sex beds, but never had sex. I've sat in many sex chairs but never had sex. I was on many adult regions without really even doing anything classified as adult.

One way or another, the child will get caught, or they will over look it until it becomes a problem like everything else.

[Ceka Cianci]

---

RiiCassidy wrote:

But it depends on what one calls lewd, it's lewd to me and you but for another person it may not be a big deal. Which is why LL needs to be on point and detail with these types of situations.

I've slept in many sex beds, but never had sex. I've sat in many sex chairs but never had sex. I was on many adult regions without really even doing anything classified as adult.

One way or another, the child will get caught, or they will over look it until it becomes a problem like everything else.

---

lewd is basically covering more than sexual act or manner is all..

in a lewd situation there may not even be sexual acts going on at all with another avatar..

 

 lewd  could be as simple as a child avatar making out with another avatar..

or as extreme as..well i'm not gonna go into the extremes..because this is sl and that can get pretty bad hehehe

but it just covers more area than sexual manner or sexual act..

 

it will get reported by how offended people are..because it won't get reported unless it offends someone anyways..or unless they are witch hunting child avatars..

but LL will just deal with it case by case in those situations..

where sexual act is pretty cut and dry..

 

lewd just covers LL's butt more than  putting in sexual act or sexual manner alone..it's a safe word that covers more ground..publicly and even private when someone cams in..

they won't ever get clear on lewd with users..because they don't know what all is out there that can be invented and brought onto the grid tomorrow that can fall under lewd..

 

[Perrie Juran]

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

---

RiiCassidy wrote:

But it depends on what one calls lewd, it's lewd to me and you but for another person it may not be a big deal. Which is why LL needs to be on point and detail with these types of situations.

I've slept in many sex beds, but never had sex. I've sat in many sex chairs but never had sex. I was on many adult regions without really even doing anything classified as adult.

One way or another, the child will get caught, or they will over look it until it becomes a problem like everything else.

---

lewd is basically covering more than sexual act or manner is all..

in a lewd situation there may not even be sexual acts going on at all with another avatar..

 

 lewd  could be as simple as a child avatar making out with another avatar..

or as extreme as..well i'm not gonna go into the extremes..because this is sl and that can get pretty bad hehehe

but it just covers more area than sexual manner or sexual act..

 

it will get reported by how offended people are..because it won't get reported unless it offends someone anyways..or unless they are witch hunting child avatars..

but LL will just deal with it case by case in those situations..

where sexual act is pretty cut and dry..

 

lewd just covers LL's butt more than  putting in sexual act or sexual manner alone..it's a safe word that covers more ground..publicly and even private when someone cams in..

they won't ever get clear on lewd with users..because they don't know what all is out there that can be invented and brought onto the grid tomorrow that can fall under lewd..

 

---

I don't think the word is used randomly or vaguely.  I'm of the opinion that LL has the TOS and CS vetted by Legal Counsel.  As a company they'd be foolish not to especially regarding an issue like this with the possible legal ramifications involved.  As I suggested to Drake above, you start with the dictionary.  Still, you need to look at actual laws so I did a brief search to see how "lewd" was used.

Kansas Statutes (pops)

Florida Statutes (pops)

When you look at dictionary definitions as well as actual laws there is no question that "lewd" refers to sexual acts or behaviour.

I do agree with your statement "they won't ever get clear on lewd with users..because they don't know what all is out there that can be invented and brought onto the grid tomorrow that can fall under lewd..," in that it would be rather onerous for LL to detail out every act.

There will always be those who think because they are consenting adults they should be able to do anything they please (which is really a separate topic) or who will try and see how far they can push the rules.  Regardless, LL has asked us (pops):

"If you are in doubt as to whether an activity may be interpreted as [sexual] ageplay, we request you err on the side of caution and desist. Please note that some countries' laws may impose penalties for graphics, drawings, or anime that resemble child pornography, even where no children have been involved."  (my bolding).

For all involved, that is really the smart thing to do.

 

 

 

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

---

RiiCassidy wrote:

But it depends on what one calls lewd, it's lewd to me and you but for another person it may not be a big deal. Which is why LL needs to be on point and detail with these types of situations.

I've slept in many sex beds, but never had sex. I've sat in many sex chairs but never had sex. I was on many adult regions without really even doing anything classified as adult.

One way or another, the child will get caught, or they will over look it until it becomes a problem like everything else.

---

lewd is basically covering more than sexual act or manner is all..

in a lewd situation there may not even be sexual acts going on at all with another avatar..

 

 lewd  could be as simple as a child avatar making out with another avatar..

or as extreme as..well i'm not gonna go into the extremes..because this is sl and that can get pretty bad hehehe

but it just covers more area than sexual manner or sexual act..

 

it will get reported by how offended people are..because it won't get reported unless it offends someone anyways..or unless they are witch hunting child avatars..

but LL will just deal with it case by case in those situations..

where sexual act is pretty cut and dry..

 

lewd just covers LL's butt more than  putting in sexual act or sexual manner alone..it's a safe word that covers more ground..publicly and even private when someone cams in..

they won't ever get clear on lewd with users..because they don't know what all is out there that can be invented and brought onto the grid tomorrow that can fall under lewd..

 

---

I don't think the word is used randomly or vaguely.  I'm of the opinion that LL has the TOS and CS vetted by Legal Counsel.  As a company they'd be foolish not to especially regarding an issue like this with the possible legal ramifications involved.  As I suggested to Drake above, you start with the dictionary.  Still, you need to look at actual laws so I did a brief search to see how "lewd" was used.

Kansas Statutes (pops)

Florida Statutes (pops)

When you look at dictionary definitions as well as actual laws there is no question that "lewd" refers to sexual acts or behaviour.

I do agree with your statement "they won't ever get clear on lewd with users..because they don't know what all is out there that can be invented and brought onto the grid tomorrow that can fall under lewd..," in that it would be rather onerous for LL to detail out every act.

There will always be those who think because they are consenting adults they should be able to do anything they please (which is really a separate topic) or who will try and see how far they can push the rules.  Regardless, LL has

asked us (pops)

:

"If you are in doubt as to whether an activity may be interpreted as [sexual] ageplay,

we request you err on the side of caution and desist.

Please note that some countries' laws may impose penalties for graphics, drawings, or anime that resemble child pornography, even where no children have been involved."  (my bolding).

For all involved, that is really the smart thing to do.

 

 

 

---

i didn't say it was used randomly or vaguely..

i said..it's a safe word that covers more ground..publicly and even private when someone cams in..

lewd basically  covers sexual acts as well as obscene or indecent and more...

for lewd to really even come into play..it has to be offensive to someone or to many..

 

a sexual act can become a lewd act..but isn't always a lewd act..

a lewd act is a sexual act or obscene or indecent and more...and it.always is one of those or all of them..

 

 it can cover many things now and things that come in the future that may be invented tomorrow..

 

i was looking up california law before  i made my other post..and i just decided to keep it pretty basic rather than get into all that..

because it can get crazy..LOL

because then you have to give examples of how this RL thing applies to this virtual situation when people start to pick things apart and get all technical about it with wild scenarios.. hehehe

 

by saying it covers their butt..that just means they were covering everything using that word more than just sexual act..

 sexual act is saying to users..don't even do this anywhere..even in private..

sexual act alone leaves out many possibilities that will leave loop holes..

lewd covers those loop holes..

so we have  in the rules..

lewd or sexual acts..

lewd or sexual manner..

 

 

and i'm always in favor of what you say at the end in that LL quote..

pretty much ..when in doubt..just don't do it..

not unless someone feels like testing out the meaning of lewd..

 

hehehe

 

 

 

 

[Melita Magic]

---

Daniel Regenbogen wrote:

Drake, I don't know how it was in your RL childhood - in *mine* we played stuff like cowboys and indians, cops and robbers and so on. Games like that regulary involved stuff like tying up someone, "torturing", sometimes gagging. Heck, I personally witnessed how embarrassing it can be when the key to the handcuffs that were found in someones's parent's bedroom were missing, lol. (Thankfully I was one of those laughing, not one of those cuffed to each other.)

 

So I prefer it if those in power use common sense and look at what actually happened instead of what it *might* look like from the outside.

---

Gobsmacked if that letter to and from LL was for real. A list of things like ball gag and that's not considered sexual? They reply that it is "OK for child avatars to engage in non sexual things like that?" Err....if that is the case what the hell am I doing in SL. If that is the case I don't want to be a part of SL at all. Someone please, tell me LL was misquoted.

As for your slippery slope example, above, I never saw kids play cowboys and Indians (actually I don't think they even do that any more anyway) with a ball gag or BDSM equipment.

 

[Proxima Saenz]

While some may think it's poor taste I think everyone should stick to their own business.

The AR option is mainly there when you're scammed/harrashed/griefed/bullied etc etc.

Residents of SL are /not/ meant to police other residents!

With that being said it should also be checked 3 times to make sure you are dealing with a child avatar here! My avatar for once is 23 years old but to some blind people he could be mistaken for a 17 year old perhaps. Take a look around your RL self... can you see the difference between a 16 year old and a 18 year old 100% accurately????

So if you want to be the SL police,you must follow the rules too. 18 years old is off age, meaning no report.

Also you should check how the avatar in question respond. Is he talking like: ''.. oh nooo daddy, not THAT!'' then it most likely is a minor (in SL!).

Also note that in SL you can be whatever. You have 30 year old people playing 12 year olds and vice versa (with teens allowed now). So you never know who you are dealing with. It's best to ignore it before making the wrong decision. As I know from experience that LL bans people when they haven't done anything wrong. So you could make another's residents life pretty nasty by hitting that AR button. Just saying.

 

[TristanMercer]

Actually, LL can't police the entire world so they leave it up to the residents to police ourselves. Sorry, but this child avatar was reported, the person who they were with was reported and LL will deal with the situation as they see fit.

[Melita Magic]

---

Proxima Saenz wrote:

While some may think it's poor taste I think everyone should stick to their own business.

The AR option is mainly there when you're scammed/harrashed/griefed/bullied etc etc.

 

---

No that isn't true at all. Is that the only category you see when you click Help/Report Abuse? No. It isn't.

You may be confusing LL's AR policy with InWorldz'. 

[Amie Kaestner]

You should see some of the skins they have on the marketplace, "femboys" that just look like prepubescent male children all decked out slave gear. Creepy as hell.

I mean, just look at this stuff.

 And this.

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Proxima Saenz wrote:

While some may think it's poor taste I think everyone should stick to their own business.

The AR option is mainly there when you're scammed/harrashed/griefed/bullied etc etc.

Residents of SL are /not/ meant to police other residents!

With that being said it should also be checked 3 times to make sure you are dealing with a child avatar here! My avatar for once is 23 years old but to some blind people he could be mistaken for a 17 year old perhaps. Take a look around your RL self... can you see the difference between a 16 year old and a 18 year old 100% accurately????

So if you want to be the SL police,you must follow the rules too. 18 years old is off age, meaning no report.

Also you should check how the avatar in question respond. Is he talking like: ''.. oh nooo daddy, not THAT!'' then it most likely is a minor (in SL!).

Also note that in SL you can be whatever. You have 30 year old people playing 12 year olds and vice versa (with teens allowed now). So you never know who you are dealing with. It's best to ignore it before making the wrong decision. As I know from experience that LL bans people when they haven't done anything wrong. So you could make another's residents life pretty nasty by hitting that AR button. Just saying.

 

---

there is no fine line between an 8 year old and a 17 and 18 year old..

those things to check?like profile and chat?

those are for when things get blurry..like in your situation..

 

 

someone in a child like avatar with child features looking 5 to 10 years old..doesn't get to use a loop hole to play an adult 32 year old trucker stopping off at a truck stop to get lucky..just because their profile say's they are 32..

one thing that makes this very clear is that those kinds of images are not allowed in sl..

that's all our avatars are anyways..images on a screen..

visual plays a big part in those rules..

but when things get blurry or uncertain is when people should look to those other things if they feel they have to AR someone..

 

in other words..someone sporting an actual child avatar is representing a child avatar no matter what their chat is or profile say's when it comes to a sexual situation..

someone on the thin line  may or may not be..

there are distinct avatars with child features and then there are those that LL would have to look into to see if someone is or is not..

 

my avatar doesn't pass a lot of the hieght restrictions in a lot of sims in sl..

but  there is no mistaking me for a child because of my features..

i think someone ARing someone because they look 16 rather than 18 is just silly and they need to relax a little..

bt i can understand someone ARing an avatar that looks like an actual child in a sexual situation..

 

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

You have no understanding of what laws are involved with age play. It is not just a question of whether actual RL minors are involved.  In the US there are laws that prohibit the depiction of children in sexual or even suggestive pictures , EVEN if all the people are actually adults or it is only a cartoon.  Further it is illegal for people or companies to make such things available to viewers in the states,regardless of where the person or company is.. 

The laws maybe different in whatever place you live in but LL is a US company and must abide by these laws. That is one reason LL takes such a strict stand on age play.  They could face serous consequences if they don't.

Further LL can't possibly police the entire virtual world.  They rely on residents to report things like this.  Certainly people should be sure that the avatars in question are child avatars, but LL itself takes the stand that is better to report suspicions than not so they can investigate.  They have access to all kinds of detailed logs and records to help them to do this that residents don't.  So if someone is banned for age play you can be sure they probably were involved in it regardless of what they claim.

Most of the time I agree with you that people should mind their own business.  However some things cross the line and age play is one of them.