Sky malls - More damage than good?

[Boudicca Littlebird]

I regularly travel around sim to count live and bot numbers, just to get an idea of the numbers of people role playing, I have noticed a trend I think.

Sims that have huge sky malls and force you to walk a long path to get to a Teleport for the ground, seem to be faring the worst, I have found that when you get to the ground almost all those there got to the ground direct and did not have to go though the mall and are groups of friends, so making the mall to any people visiting the sim something they don't want to do twice unless they intended to shop, but the sims are advertised as role play sims and not malls, this must make most new people feel that the words "role play" are just used to trap people in malls. I see this as the reason as to why the numbers are dropping in those sims.

I found that sims that let you rez on the ground and give you a choice to visit a mall do best, even though there numbers are falling a bit they do tend to attract new people and new people join.

 

So my question is, "Do sky malls do more damage than good".

[Ceka Cianci]

most rp sims i have seen put you in a drop point ..most of the malls are related to the rp..

usually there is a place that you have to cross and rules are given  or there is a sign explaining that beyond this point it is the rp area..

 

having the malls gives access to those things without having mall traffic dropping in on rp areas and wrecking rp..

usually there are some free clothes around the entrance point or drop point as well for those wanting to go into the rp area if they don't have any..

i don't really see anything wrong with malls in rp sims..

and i can see a problem with people there for the malls interrupting immersed rp by being dropped right in the rp zones..

[Solar Legion]

For the most part ... what Ceka said.

In more mature/adult RP areas where one is likely to find combat/violence/BDSM and other themes, the mall also acts as a safe zone for those visiting or intending to RP.

I know the last thing i want to do is be dumped right into the middle of the RP in an "unsafe" environment. 

[161488303349]

having a safezone to spawn in is ok. if is shops there then is ok as well

is the long march that some force you to make that annoys me. so am agree with Boudicca on that part

+

if i like your place and how your arena/rp plays then i will probably look in your shops afterwards for stuff that i might like

also if you got empty shops on the long march then is a sign for me that nobody likes your arena/rp. not enough to pay rentals anyways. so cant be much good. and i usual just tp out to another place and see what is there

[Seven Overdrive]

Sims are very expensive so stuffing them full of vendors to help offset the cost is often a necessary evil. It can be difficult to get vendors to rent in malls so showing them that people will be forced to walk through the mall may entice them to pay rent for a space there.

 

I tend to leave rather than enduring that long walk to the teleporter to see the rest of the sim. I came to see the sim and not the mall.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Seven Overdrive wrote:

 

I tend to leave rather than enduring that long walk to the teleporter to see the rest of the sim. I came to see the sim and not the mall.

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Totally agree.  I do realize that sim owners often need other avenues to help pay tier but personally, when I want to go dancing and the lm dumps me in the middle of a maze of clothing vendors that I have to navigate to get to where I wanted to go in the first place, I generally don't return to that venue.

[Ceka Cianci]

the ones that i have landed in  pretty much had the entrance right there..you could enter the rp or you could  go to the mall to look for whatever..

it's been a little bit since i have been to them..

i never really had to hunt for the entrance to the rp sections..and most were  on the same level..not way up in the air..so maybe there is a new trend now or something?

[jwenting]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Seven Overdrive wrote:

 

I tend to leave rather than enduring that long walk to the teleporter to see the rest of the sim. I came to see the sim and not the mall.

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Totally agree.  I do realize that sim owners often need other avenues to help pay tier but personally, when I want to go dancing and the lm dumps me in the middle of a maze of clothing vendors that I have to navigate to get to where I wanted to go in the first place, I generally don't return to that venue.

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yup. Can be extremely annoying. And not just because of the walk (often you can set a landmark elsewhere for future use) but because those massive malls are a major source of lag. Each and every vendor is heavily scripted...

[Amethyst Jetaime]

The malls help pay the tiers or you would not have any sim to go to.  With the economy the way it is, merchants will not rent space in a mall unless they are guaranteed that some  traffic goes by their shop, so the walk through is needed in order to rent the shops as you can only fit a few shops at the landing point.  If a sim owner is smart they will mostly have shops in their mall that cater to the needs of people coming to the sim, such as the right clothing for the specific roleplay.

People just don't donate enough to make it a purely voluntary contribution, so a sim owner that can't pay all the costs out of their own pocket has little choice. Even if they could, why should they? You should contribute something to keep places like this open, even it if is only a bit of your time. Believe it or not you are not entitled to be entertained for free.   Maybe it is a small inconvenience to the visitor, but the alternative is either a lot less sims that welcome the public for entertainment or roleplay, or to start charging an entrance fee.

[Ceka Cianci]

i actually miss malls sometimes..i mean in general..there used to be some really nice ones..

since the market place they really have really started to disapear along with just actual stores  themselves..

malls used to be a good way to find out about new up and coming  creators..

now they get lost in the thousands of pages  on market place..

damn you market place..why you haz to be so easy to make my lazy side happies? \o/

[Seven Overdrive]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

The malls help pay the tiers or you would not have any sim to go to.  With the economy the way it is, merchants will not rent space in a mall unless they are guaranteed that some  traffic goes by their shop, so the walk through is needed in order to rent the shops as you can only fit a few shops at the landing point.  If a sim owner is smart they will mostly have shops in their mall that cater to the needs of people coming to the sim, such as the right clothing for the specific roleplay.

People just don't donate enough to make it a purely voluntary contribution, so a sim owner that can't pay all the costs out of their own pocket has little choice. Even if they could, why should they?

You should contribute something to keep places like this open, even it if is only a bit of your time. Believe it or not you are not entitled to be entertained for free.   Maybe it is a small inconvenience to the visitor, but the alternative is either a lot less sims that welcome the public for entertainment or roleplay, or to start charging an entrance fee.

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Because a sim owner should not be buying a sim if they are not able or willing to pay for it out of pocket.  That is just plain irresponsible on such a sim owner's part.  

Yes it is terrible that LL charges outrageous tier fees for sims, but that is ultimately LL's own fault.  They were the ones that introduced the freemium model to SL and the ones that raised the price for those providing entertainment to their customers.

 I am speaking as someone that did give up a roleplaying sim because the cost became too much for me to sustain out of pocket when the economy soured and I refused to have the immersive environment I worked hard to build be ruined by using half the sim's resources for a mall.  That was my choice.  

It really is a shame that the high cost of providing venues in a freemium based virtual world means that there are fewer places to enjoy or places that have to use half their sim's resources on malls  just to try and cover the high tier.  But that is how LL likes it.

ETA:  LL laid off a part of their workforce, closed offices, stuffed more sims per server and still couldn't cut land owners a small break on their tiers all the while trumpeting how profitable they are.  I can never blame people who cannot afford to pay for other peoples sims, even if it means places must close down due to the high cost.  Those mega mall mazes high in the sky shouldn't be necessary at all.  

[Seven Overdrive]

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jwenting wrote:

yup. Can be extremely annoying. And not just because of the walk

(often you can set a landmark elsewhere for future use)

but because those massive malls are a major source of lag. Each and every vendor is heavily scripted...

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I thought I would be clever once and do just that, but the LM would only deposit me back into the mall and only give me a beacon to the location where I created it. 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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Seven Overdrive wrote:

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

The malls help pay the tiers or you would not have any sim to go to.  With the economy the way it is, merchants will not rent space in a mall unless they are guaranteed that some  traffic goes by their shop, so the walk through is needed in order to rent the shops as you can only fit a few shops at the landing point.  If a sim owner is smart they will mostly have shops in their mall that cater to the needs of people coming to the sim, such as the right clothing for the specific roleplay.

People just don't donate enough to make it a purely voluntary contribution, so a sim owner that can't pay all the costs out of their own pocket has little choice. Even if they could, why should they?

You should contribute something to keep places like this open, even it if is only a bit of your time. Believe it or not you are not entitled to be entertained for free.   Maybe it is a small inconvenience to the visitor, but the alternative is either a lot less sims that welcome the public for entertainment or roleplay, or to start charging an entrance fee.

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Because a sim owner should not be buying a sim if they are not able or willing to pay for it out of pocket.  That is just plain irresponsible on such a sim owner's part.  

Yes it is terrible that LL charges outrageous tier fees for sims, but that is ultimately LL's own fault.  They were the ones that introduced the freemium model to SL and the ones that raised the price for those providing entertainment to their customers.

 I am speaking as someone that did give up a roleplaying sim because the cost became too much for me to sustain out of pocket when the economy soured and I refused to have the immersive environment I worked hard to build be ruined by using half the sim's resources for a mall.  That was my choice.  

It really is a shame that the high cost of providing venues in a freemium based virtual world means that there are fewer places to enjoy or places that have to use half their sim's resources on malls  just to try and cover the high tier.  But that is how LL likes it.

ETA:  LL laid off a part of their workforce, closed offices, stuffed more sims per server and still couldn't cut land owners a small break on their tiers all the while trumpeting how profitable they are.  I can never blame people who cannot afford to pay for other peoples sims, even if it means places must close down due to the high cost.  Those mega mall mazes high in the sky shouldn't be necessary at all.  

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I agree that LL charges too much for a sim, and it would be wonderful if we could all get a sim and make it a fantastic experience just for the sake of art or fun.  I also think people should freely make generous donations to support public entertainment venues they like, without the need for such things as malls too.  But that not reality in RL and just a fantasy in SL.  The reality is what it is and venue owners have to deal with it.  Its nice that you could afford a sim without any help, but most people can't.  If sim ownership were restricted to only those that paid for it themselves without any help, SL would be a MUCH smaller and boring place. 

Just like RL things cost, and in RL if a venue can't earn a profit , it eventually shuts down. Why do you think it should be any different here in SL when the standard isn't a profit so much as breaking even.  I am always puzzled why people think that a handful of people (venue owners) should pay all the costs for entertaining THEM and even in some cases to pay them to come to the venue in the form of cash prizes and give a ways.  And where did you get the idea that SL is a freemium virtual world?  LL is a for profit company not a charity.  They allow basic accounts, relying on people spending money in world and LL getting a cut of the exchange of RL to SL currency and vice versa..  But  its not working that way now due in part to the RL economy but that isn't the only reason the other part is  just plain misplaced entitlement and miserliness as evidence by people who won't spend a dime for whatever reason complain about seeing anything commercial at all. 

[Jo Yardley]

I think that a skymall is the best thing a RP sim can do, we have one.

It enables visitors to shop AND/OR visit the RP sim with out getting in the way of what is happening in the RP sim.

Before we had a skymall teleport area we had people running around the sim ignoring the rules.

Of course our mall isn't very big, we wouldn't expect roleplayers to walk for ages to get anywhere.

We have a few shops and a train station with a train that takes you to the sim.

It keeps things seperate and also brings in some rent.

Our sim has been doing extremely well and we have just celebrated our 3rd anniversary.

[161488303349]

i dont think it has anything to do with freemium or sense of entitlement or anything like that

if a sim promotes/advertises itself as a roleplay sim then is reasonable to expect that the sim is setup to be that

if it is and also makes it difficult for people to actual find the gate to the arena/rp then is a problem

+

some sims do it good. like they balance the needs of the shopkeepers with their roleplayers. lots of sims do that way.  like some you spawn in a courtyard/skybox. is heaps of shops there. but is also a great big arena gate/teleport that you cant miss right in front of you. thats good and easy

+

what OP was saying and with which i agree is being put to the long march thru the maze to get to the arena/rp. is not that i feel any sense of entitlement when i say this sux. i just think it sux and i cant be bothered. so i just leave

on other hand if i can get into the arena/rp easily and i like it then i will look in the shops afterwards. not before. and when i do look then i am looking to buy something specific that fits in with the arena/rp

if i want to just go shopping then i already know lots of good shops and malls where i can get everything i could ever want. except maybe what i need for this arena/rp. but i never know what that is/might be, unless i make it thru the arena/rp gate first

[Seven Overdrive]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

...

Just like RL things cost, and in RL if a venue can't earn a profit , it eventually shuts down.

Why do you think it should be any different here in SL when the standard isn't a profit so much as breaking even. 

I am always puzzled why people think that a handful of people (venue owners) should pay all the costs for entertaining THEM and even in some cases to pay them to come to the venue in the form of cash prizes and give a ways.  And where did you get the idea that SL is a freemium virtual world?  LL is a for profit company not a charity.  They allow basic accounts, relying on people spending money in world and LL getting a cut of the exchange of RL to SL currency and vice versa..  But  its not working that way now due in part to the RL economy but that isn't the only reason the other part is  just plain misplaced entitlement and miserliness as evidence by people who won't spend a dime for whatever reason complain about seeing anything commercial at all. 

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Because I think it is unrealistic for a roleplaying sim or a club to expect the cost of their sim to be completely covered.  As you pointed out many people aren't generous enough with donations to such venues.  The reasons for this are probably because they cannot afford to put any money in SL or are supporting their own high tier and can't afford to support someone elses.  If someone is so desperate to turn their roleplaying sim or club into a mall with some roleplaying attached, then they should really rethink things.  It is not like there is a shortage of clubs or roleplaying sims in SL.  

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

And where did you get the idea that SL is a freemium virtual world?

  LL is a for profit company not a charity.  They allow basic accounts, relying on people spending money in world and LL getting a cut of the exchange of RL to SL currency and vice versa..  But  its not working that way now due in part to the RL economy but that isn't the only reason the other part is  just plain misplaced entitlement and miserliness as evidence by people who won't spend a dime for whatever reason complain about seeing anything commercial at all. 

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Because that is essentially what it is.  Free client, free to sign-up, free to use the service with free avatars to choose from.  You never have to ever spend a dime to use SL.  If you want some of the better stuff, then the micropayments begin.  Even though the content is made by the content creators and not LL, LL still gets their cut out of it at some point.  

I am not sure where you got the idea that I was calling LL a charity.  Their price gouging for server space is evidence enough that they most certainly are not a charity.  

 

I have to say ditto to 16's post in this thread.  I do not mind that these places have malls to help cover tier.  What I do mind is being forced to navigate through a maze of vendors just to get to the real reason why I came to the sim in the first place.  I don't mind landing in the middle of a mall when I go to a sim to RP.  Just put the teleporter at the landing point and give me the choice on where I want to go in the sim.  That's all I am asking.

With that said... I just want to say that I respect your opinion and I thank you for responding.  :smileyhappy:

[Amethyst Jetaime]

One of the great things about SL  is that you are not forced to do anything you don't want to. I myself will leave a venue that i don't like and I have many reasons why i don't like certain sims.  There are other sims to go to that I do like, so i don't spend time complaining about ones I don't like.

While there are a great many people that don't mind the walk, if  people feel the way you do, they leave.  If enough people do it and the venue fails, and perhaps the owner will try a different way and succeed or perhaps the sim goes too.   If enough sims fail and enough people leaveSL because there is not enough fun things, or  LLdoesn't make what money they feel they need to, LL shuts down SL.  Its all supply and demand and that is how it should be.

I guess what puzzles me is that a person thinks nothing of going to a RL movie and paying 10 bucks to go in to be entertained for 2 hours, but that same person will come into SL and spend 8 hours being just as entertained at a public venue and then they balk at donating even 10L (about 4cents) to help support it. They can make all the excuses they want to and I've heard them all, including its 'just a game' and they have to save that 4 cents to use toward some RL thing (probably the movie or beer or whatever),  

I respect your opinion, but thnking that only people that can pay all the expense of entertaining others and labling SL as a freeium virtual world fosters this kind of thinking and in the long run thats not good.  SL could be so much better with a much wider range of experiences wiht no need for sky malls at all if people just didn't have this feeling of entitlement that they should get something for nothing. And that's larger point.