SL Client Woes

[mgjackson]

Hi,

I've been on Second Life now for about a week, and my biggest issue has been the client.

If Linden want to attract new members, then this needs to be seriously revamped.

The first issue is, it doesn't actually work - well, at least not for very long.  The official Linden client drops the connection after a minute or so.

As a techy, I was able to hunt around and find a 3rd party viewer, and am using the catznp one...which looks almost the same, so not sure why someone would re-write the same thing in the first place.  This seems better, but will still randomly drop the connection.

The PC I'm using is brand new high-spec, bare bones machine intended only for games playing - it doesn't even have email. 

I've tried on another machine, and all I get is a black window. 

I guess many others have failed at the first hurdle - tried the client, its fallen over and gone off and found another sim - I've played Runescape for over 6 years and never had any such issues.

The other issue is, its overly complicated - I've played in the sandbox and had fun making shapes, I've even written a couple of scripts - one of them actually goes off to an external server and brings back some data, which if you think about it, is pretty cool.   I think I've covered a lot of ground in quite a short time :-)

Buy why is all this development stuff there  - really that should be hidden away and the UI simplified.  Surely there's no need for an edit option if an object is protected.

Even wearing clothes seems diificult - Its easy to switch outfits, but why is when dressing up the avatar there's 'wear' and 'attached' .  I mean, I understand why and the difference and once you've sused it, its fine, but this could be done better and its certainly not new user friendly.

Rant over....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nyll Bergbahn]

For technical questions like this it would help if you could post your computer specifications from SL login screen > Help > About Second Life. Also, what router are you using and what connection, wired or wireless (wired is recommended).

HTTP textures can cause issues for some people. The router I have, a Huawei, does not like HTTP textures (crashes when the viewer tries to load new textures not already in cache) so I have to disable the HTTP texture opton in the Develop Menu (CTRL+ALT+Q or CTRL+ALT+D for Advanced Menu and select Show Develop Menu).

One of the Netgear routers (can't recall which offhand) caused constant crashing with Second Life users soon after logging in.

You don't  quite seem to get what Second Life is. It's basically a world full of user-created content hence all the development stuff and the ability to edit objects. Some objects are no-mod so you can't edit them if that's the way the creator set them up. Many creators allow editing and when creating your own items, you can set the permissions whatever way you want. There are places inworld where you can learn to build and script and lots of online tutorials too.

[mgjackson]

Apologies, I started this thread in the wrong place.

CPU: AMD FX-4170 Quad-Core Processor (4218.95 MHz)
Memory: 8174 MB
OS Version: Microsoft Windows Vista 64-bit (Build 6000)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: GeForce GT 520/PCI/SSE2

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 8.17.0012.8562
OpenGL Version: 4.2.0

RestrainedLove API: (disabled)
libcurl Version: libcurl/7.21.1 OpenSSL/0.9.8q zlib/1.2.5 c-ares/1.7.1
J2C Decoder Version: OpenJPEG: 1.4.0, Runtime: 1.4.0
Audio Driver Version: FMOD version 3.750000
Qt Webkit Version: 4.7.1 (version number hard-coded)
Voice Server Version: Not Connected
Built with MSVC version 1600

 

The router is a Netgear FS318, which is a pro router for office use.  Connection is cable and the PC is wired.

When it works, it all works well - no problems rendering and the graphics all look fantastic. 

 

>You don't  quite seem to get what Second Life is. 

I understand ok, just the observation is its not that intuitive.   If some of these things were hidden away then perhaps it would make the sim more accessable. 

 

 

[Qwalyphi Korpov]

The resident who provided the previous content, if any, has replaced it with this generic statement.

[Nyll Bergbahn]

The Moderators will move the thread if they want to so don't worry about that

The Netgear router I had in mind was the Netgear DGN 1000.

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Technical/Got-New-NetGear-Router-but-it-closes-SL-what-do-i-do/qaq-p/691649

Loads of other threads on it too. However, no references show up for the Netgear FS318.

That spec looks fine for running Second Life. The Nvidia GT 520 is an entry level card but should run Second Life well although maybe not Ultra with Shadows on.

When inworld, you could keep an eye on the Stats window  (CTRL+SHIFT+1) or select it from the Advanced Menu > Performance Tools and see if it throws up any hints as to why you are crashing. Ideally, packet loss should be 0. You can check your fps and ping time here too. Ping times over 250 may cause problems and crashes. What error message appears when you crash?

Second Life is complicated and you'll need more than a week to get to grips with it. The Advanced and Develop menus are hidden by default but easily enabled if needed. I don't see any reason to hide anything else. The tools are essential for most people.

[Thinkerer Melville]

Therre some known problems with Netgear a while back.  Here is info on that:

Login fails? Lots of logouts? Summary 

http://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/2011/12/kit-login-fails-lots-of-logouts-summary.html

TKR

[Nyll Bergbahn]

---

Qwalyphi Korpov wrote:

Your ideas about a simpler viewer have some support and were tried not long ago.  That introduces a couple issues tho. 

One is that users of the fully complex viewer are stymied when attempting to assist users of the simple viewer.  New person says 'I can't do X' and the helper responds - 'just click your Y button and move the slider'  Problem is New person doesn't have button Y.

Another is that the simple needs of one type of user don't meet the simple needs of another.  So the set of things needed to be simple seemed to grow to be nearly the same as the fully complex set.

---

Absolutely right, the Basic viewer just didn't work. Any time we got a question on the Basic Viewer in Answers, we'd tell the OPs to switch to the full viewer.

[mgjackson]

Thanks, others have been here before me with the same ideas :-)

These are my views as a week old user and views change as expeirecence does, so thought worth posting my initial observations.

 

 

[mgjackson]

Thanks, I'll look at the performance tools.

The sympton is that the avatar stops walking or if flying, just hangs there. Can still move about the camera about, and if there was still rendering occuring, that continues.  

After a minute or so get the "Darn, you have been logged out of Second Life".

This also sometimes occurs when looking at the in client destinations or search guide - close or minimise those windows to find the avatar is now routed to the spot.

[Nyll Bergbahn]

Now we're getting somewhere. That is exactly what happens to me when I enable HTTP textures using the Huawei router, a partial disconnection rather that a complete viewer crash to desktop then that error message.

Start with disabling HTTP textures as I said earlier. That may fix it.  Play around with your bandwith settings in Preferences too, try reducing the slider. If you still have those crashes after that, then you need to look at your network connection. Nalates Urriah has a good troubleshooting page here:

http://blog.nalates.net/2011/10/26/troubleshoot-your-sl-connection/

[PeterCanessa Oh]

There are simple answers to the "why" questions.  They are not necessarily satisfactory ones though.

1.  Connection dropping: There are no other platforms or environments like SL.  Because everything in SL is created and changed by residents at any time it isn't pre-installed on your computer in the same way games, MMORPGs, etc. are.  Instead everything has to be communicated over your broadband link, stressing the connection far more than almost anything else will.

Your connection has failed the test :-(

2.  Third-Party Viewers (TPVs): As a techy you'll undertand that if something is made open-source (as the viewer code is) they'll always be someone that takes it apart just to see how it works, even if there isn't a better reason.  You'll also be aware that there are usually several trade-off decisions made in any design.  When you take the viewer apart and see what those decisions were you can put it back together differently, adding functionality or changing the emphasis.  Do you want it faster, less memory, text-only, etc.?  Secondly there are some things communicated to the viewer from the servers but not explicitly to the user.  Thus the viewer knows every avatar in the sim but the user would need to use a sensor script (or similar) to find that out.  This is a waste of resources so some TPVs provide a full-sim 'radar' as standard.

3.  Overly complicated:  Well yes and no.  There's certainly a steep learning-curve but that's because you have almost complete control over everything.  You've built and scripted, great - now which of those should be removed so that other people can't?  Wearing clothes is REALLY easy if you stick to system clothes, hair, etc. but people wanting to dress-up usually don't keep it simple, so they get into trouble.  They immediately need to know how an object is edited - resized, recoloured, twisted, etc.

This is the probably unsatisfactory part.  In order to know anything in SL you almost need to know everything.  On the other hand as soon as you know anything you almost know everything.  It's all the same stuff, so it all works the same way.  Looked at that way, WHY should wearing clothes be any easier - or more available - than building a spaceship?  What is unsatisfactory is that of course you're right.  It's complicated and a lot of people never come back after their first experience.  SL's 9th birthday is approaching.  During that time it has had many features added and it has seen-off many competitors.  LL have made many mistakes that others should have learnt from.  What SL hasn't had is a fundamental re-design to integrate and simplify all those add-ons and design lessons.  What's left is a hodge-podge of layers and layers of things sometimes only half-done or poorly-done, but all somehow hanging together more often than falling apart.  And it's free. :-)

Anyway, LL doesn't care much any more, they're focussing on some new products.

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

mgjackson wrote:

>

You don't  quite seem to get what Second Life is. 

I understand ok, just the observation is

its not that intuitive

.

 

---

Understatement of the year.

...Dres

[Ceka Cianci]

could it be your afk setting is logging you out?

 

[Rhys Goode]

Your computer should handle SL just fine, so the next suspect is your internet connection.  I travel a lot, and hook up to SL over many different routers.  Usually using wifi, and I get wildly different results for different routers.  (WiFi is officially "not recommended" somewhere in the SL fine print).  Some work fine, others have lots of lag, and one or two conisitanly log \me off after a few minutes.

If I am having problems with a router, it usually shows up as packet loss.  SL in general, and HTTP textures in particular, are not very robust against packet loss.  I have had very good luck in these cases by pluging directly into the router with an ethernet cable (not always possible, I know).

[JeanneAnne]

>>I guess many others have failed at the first hurdle - tried the client, its fallen over and gone off and found another sim -<<

When i 1st started playing SL back in Aug. i had the same problem with Viewer 2. It was all i knew about & was SOOOooooo crappy i almost just dropped SL. Fortunately, i tried Firestorm & it was MUCH better. It almost seems embematic that LL's own viewer is so deficient compared to third party viewers. If LL cant even make a decent viewer for their own game, how good can they be at running their game. If only a third party would take over SL, imagine how much better SL would be !!

>>The other issue is, its overly complicated - <<

Ha! I was saying this very thing yesterday & got criticized for saying it. So see ???? oldbies .. I'm not the only one who thinks that SL intimidated newbies w/ its unnecessary over-complexification. If SL was more user friendly .. more newbies would stick .. buy stuff .. pay rent & tier .. etc ..

>>Even wearing clothes seems diificult - Its easy to switch outfits, but why is when dressing up the avatar there's 'wear' and 'attached' .  I mean, I understand why and the difference and once you've sused it, its fine, but this could be done better and its certainly not new user friendly.<<

Yup! You got it .. What the oldbie forget is how baffling all this quirky stuff is to the noob ..  A few ppl are savvy enuf to pick up on all this quirky idiosyncratic stuff .. like you apparently mgjackson .. & a very few are even jazzed by the challenge .. but no doubt the vast majority of those who try SL .. like my mom .. just shrug their shoulders over all the confusing user unfriendly stuff that SL is fulluv .. move on & never look back

>>Rant over....<<

Wasnt a rant .. Was a reasonable objective critique of a poorly designed game run by an incompetent corporation

Jeanne

[JeanneAnne]

>> What SL hasn't had is a fundamental re-design to integrate and simplify all those add-ons and design lessons.  What's left is a hodge-podge of layers and layers of things sometimes only half-done or poorly-done, but all somehow hanging together more often than falling apart.  And it's free. :-)

Anyway, LL doesn't care much any more, they're focussing on some new products.<<

Bingo!!

Thanks! Peter.. for your honesty ..

Jeanne

[mgjackson]

Thanks.  

I've found the HTTP Texture setting.  Presumably if turned off it uses UDP.

 

Why would reducing the bandwidth slider improve things - woudln't it be better to increase it to what ever my ISP provides?

[mgjackson]

Thanks for your posting, thats most interesting.

1. Its almost as if the client needs to down load a whole region, and then on future visits just bring done any differences...I've no idea how it works under the bonnet, but that may be impossible.   The amount of storage might eventually be huge, but then these days most PCs are. 

2. Yes, Been having a look at the official client;  its logs off more readily than the catznip one, so if the HTTP thread fix works, then it should be apparent more readily. However, having been using catznip, the Linden client seems slower.

3. My view, again as a newbie would be to ask, could I set up a private region for our company - we're small and distributed around the world, so SL seems a good way of getting peaple to liase. However, some of my colleagues can be hard of thinking and/or obstinant, and if they couldn't get it to work I think would be quick to criticise.  Afterall, Video conferencing is easy these days.

 

 

 

[Perrie Juran]

I'd been thinking of this for a while and just came across this in a box of old software I have.

And it reminded me of "learning curves."

Even this little old game had a learning curve to it.

Why anyone should think that anything you do on a computer wouldn't have a learning curve surprises me.

Some things have steeper curves than others.

I have said before that SL does need to do a better job teaching some basic functions in orientation before allowing an Avatar lose In World. But regardless, to not expect a learning curve surprises me.

</surprise>

[mgjackson]

Thanks, its good I'm not alone in my observations.

It does seem a level of perserveance is required to get into this.

 

>Was a reasonable objective critique of a poorly designed game run by an incompetent corporation

It does seem its gone a little to ruin - I've was intrigued to read that IBM and Mircsoft had set up their own regions, but these appear to have long since gone. I found a NHS region, but the bill-boards for the meeting agendas are all dated 2008...probablty a joke there about the NHS keeping virtual hosiptials open while closing real ones :-)

I can only make a comparison (which I don't really want to as they're not the same thing) with Runescape which I'm a long term player of. Great pains have gone into keeping the game fresh and new features to make it accessable to newbies and keep old hands interested (and paying their subscriptions) are added virtually every week.

 

 

[Nyll Bergbahn]

---

mgjackson wrote:

Thanks.  

I've found the HTTP Texture setting.  Presumably if turned off it uses UDP.

 

Why would reducing the bandwidth slider improve things - woudln't it be better to increase it to what ever my ISP provides?

---

Yes, will use UDP when HTTP is disabled. HTTP is designed to be faster but personally, I don't see very much difference between the two. If you still crash, you may as well enable HTTP again.

Regarding bandwith, your slider may very well be set correctly. I suggest you read this page which explains bandwith far better than I ever could. The author was once a Linden.

http://joelfoner.com/2010/03/understanding-the-maximum-bandwidth-option-in-the-second-life-viewer/

You can set cache size in Preferences > Advanced. Have a read of Nalates comments in this thread.

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Viewer/Recommended-cache-size/td-p/1269785

Personally, I prefer mine at 1 or 2 GB. I've never tried the maximum10GB.

[Nyll Bergbahn]

---

mgjackson wrote:

3. My view, again as a newbie would be to ask, could I set up a private region for our company - we're small and distributed around the world, so SL seems a good way of getting peaple to liase. However, some of my colleagues can be hard of thinking and/or obstinant, and if they couldn't get it to work I think would be quick to criticise.  Afterall, Video conferencing is easy these days.

 

---

Yes, you can buy a private region.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Private_Island#Make_Your_Purchase_from_the_Land_Store

http://secondlife.com/land/privatepricing.php

[PeterCanessa Oh]

---

mgjackson wrote:

Thanks for your posting, thats most interesting.

1. Its almost as if the client needs to down load a whole region, and then on future visits just bring done any differences...I've no idea how it works under the bonnet, but that may be impossible.   The amount of storage might eventually be huge, but then these days most PCs are. 

2. Yes, Been having a look at the official client;  its logs off more readily than the catznip one, so if the HTTP thread fix works, then it should be apparent more readily. However, having been using catznip, the Linden client seems slower.

3. My view, again as a newbie would be to ask, could I set up a private region for our company - we're small and distributed around the world, so SL seems a good way of getting peaple to liase. However, some of my colleagues can be hard of thinking and/or obstinant, and if they couldn't get it to work I think would be quick to criticise.  Afterall, Video conferencing is easy these days.

 [and later, in another post ...]

 

I can only make a comparison (which I don't really want to as they're not the same thing) with Runescape which I'm a long term player of. Great pains have gone into keeping the game fresh and new features to make it accessable to newbies and keep old hands interested (and paying their subscriptions) are added virtually every week.

 

---

 

1.  The viewer has to download not a whole region but EVERYTHING YOU CAN SEE, which can be a lot more than a region, depending on your view-distance.  Yes, on future visits it only needs to download what is different but that could be a lot, mainly the textures - graphic files - used (things like prim positions, dimensions, etc. are tiny amounts of data in comparison).  Sounds, animations, etc. all have to be downloaded on the fly too, so it's not even 'just' what you see.  You can set the cache size on your hard disk, when full the oldest data (I think) gets overwritten.  SO - the first effect is that SL has to download a HUGE amount more data than games do so ***Broadband quality is vital***.  Secondly, very little of this is designed or built by experienced 3D designers.  The second effect is no graphics optimisation is really possible within any sim, as it would be in a game 'level', pre-rendering is non-existant and ***Your graphics card works far harder than for games***.  You will notice that 90% of problems people have are covered by "your broadband can't take it" or "your graphics card can't take it".  Now you understand why ^^.  As a techy you'll appreciate why tall this is so hard :-)

2.  Yeah, 'nuff said.

3.  Yes you can.  Yes quite a few companies did.  Yes, they found it too much trouble.  That's one of the reasons why there are hardly any RL companies in SL any more.  If you need 3D simulation, rather than a TV picture, there are still specialist software options that are simpler than SL, if more limited.  Those tend to be expensive compared to SL but then most RL companies did things the expensive way in SL anyway (like setting up their own private region - US$1,000 plus US$300/month - instead of hiring a small private area when they needed it, eg; just room for 20 avatars for half a day).

Runescape:  As you say they are not the same thing.  SL is a platform, not a game.  New things are added all the time - most recently mesh import - but they tend to be for content creators.  LL do not usually provide features to make it interesting - that's what content creators do (or are meant to).  As I've said to other people in similar discussions - think one abstraction layer higher.  SL is not interesting, it is not meant to be interesting.  It is what you can do IN SL that is meant to be interesting.  LL provide the platform, residents provide the content.  If the content isn't interesting, and creating new content doesn't interest you/someone, then SL isn't going to be interesting, but really that's our (creators) fault :-(  LL's new boss comes from The Sims and has a more 'games' view of things so they have provided the 'Linden Realms' game content but even that was more a test-environment for new content-creator tools than "interesting content" in its own right.

See :-) SL really is different (and complicated, notice everyone's agreed with that point!)

[@ Jeanne - not honesty as I don't really know.  It appears to me that LL have lost even more interest in SL than before though.  Their advertised new products must be taking some attention from SL if nothing else]

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

mgjackson wrote:

Thanks, others have been here before me with the same ideas :-)

These are my views as a week old user and views change as expeirecence does, so thought worth posting my initial observations.

 

 

---

We've all started there - gradually formed from next to nothing and then thrust into a hostile, incomprehensible world, struggling even to walk. Many don't survive, succumbing to mysterious problems that they can communicate only in a plaintive wail, often unable to put their problems into words more useful than, "OW!!! HURTS!!!"

The survivors may be the strongest or only the luckiest. So much is left to chance - is that stranger going to help me or only use me for their unimaginable purposes? But somehow we manage to stand on our own feet and eventually learn enough of the language and customs to begin to make our way on our own.

We start to find where we are in this world, becoming our own individuals and starting to see at least the beginnings of a path to travel. The possibilities are endless! We set out on our own, possibly with friends to join us.

For indeed, there are others. Some prove interesting. "Oh, you think I'm nice? Attractive, even? Well, um... you are too *blush*." Connections are made of many different kinds, some with many and some with few. For some of us, one other soul stands out. Someone to share everything with, including ourselves? That's the dream many have, and can come true or end in betrayal. We don't know how the story will play out.

With capability comes frustration. Irritation at the petty annoyances of the world and those running it. "The FOOLS! Why don't they do the sensible thing? Why do they stick to worn-out conventions? Why don't they listen to ME! I'll show them! I'll run away and find a new, BETTER way of living for me and those who see things clearly!" An honorable instinct, but results haven't been impressive yet. Maybe someday.

Many just settle down into a comfortable way of life, however, with friends and maybe a little place to call their own. Others have a vision and take it by the horns, trying to create something unique or powerful, or both. The boundaries of this world are set only by the imagination. Many fail, but some succeed beyond their wildest dreams. All find themselves at the mercy of forces beyond their control that can suddenly disrupt or destroy everything they've built and that respond to their pleas and threats with an enigmatic silence. Nothing to do but to start over again (or give up, but somehow this life breeds a remarkable tenacity.)

What will the future hold though? Will we continue to push forward or will we find themselves lamenting the lost places of our youth as we see our friends dropping one by one? Some see themselves surrounded by disrespectful newcomers (little better than animals, really) who reject or ignore the traditions that literally built this world. "My ways were always good enough - why am I being left behind? Why should I respect, much less participate, in this new foolishness?" Others seek to share their wisdom with the hope that their civilization will prosper even under changes.

So, that's what you can expect. Welcome to Second LIFE, MG. I wish you well. Let us know if there's anything else we can do to help.

[mgjackson]

Wow, thank you, what a most eloquently put welcome.

And thanks to everyone else in this thread for their help.

So far I have been amazed with what I've seen and what its possible to do in SL, and although I've only spoken to a few people in game, this seems a very friendly community.