Madeliefste Oh

Ashlene, I'm a Dutch resident as well. I managed two times to add a paypal account without credit card to my SL billing info. First time was in 2007, then I did add a personal PP account. There was no money on this account when I started using it. But I used it to cash out usd, not to pay my bills at LL. In the beginning of 2012 I took a business account at Paypal as well. I did put a few hunderd euros on this account before I attached it to my billing info at SL. This account was also accepted without any need to attach a credit card. So the question is now: why do they accept me (twice) with Paypal without credit card, but not you? Maybe there must be some sort of minimum credit on your Paypal account. In other posts in this forum people were talking about a minimum credit of 25 usd. But I'm not sure if this is going to solve your problem. Maybe contact support->billing issues first to make sure what you exactly must do before your PP is accepted without creditcard.

When you use Lindex you have to do with 3 x a waiting time. There is only one you can influence, and that is the one you are talking about. When you sell your L$ at 247 it can take some days depending on the volumn offered before you get your USD, when you sell at 248 you will have them in a few hours (and sometimes minutes). Then once you have usd on your account, you can cash out to paypal. And that is the waiting time we were discussing. It takes 3 to 5 working days normally, before your money arrives on your paypal account. But sometimes for unknown reason it can suddenly take 10 days as well. When you send your money from paypal to your own bank account, there is another waiting time, also a few days.

Deja Letov wrote Although...I have to say, I don't quite buy that they are sending out these mass payment files. If so...then why aren't the major exchanges doing it? Maybe they get a better deal at Paypal when it comes to transfer costs, when they do it in one mass payment, then when they are whole day long using the service for relatively small amounts? Exchange services were basicly different. My guess is that those had more buyers then sellers. When Lindex has more buyers then sellers, LL just just 'prints' new L$ to keep the value stable. But for an exchange service is the quicker they can buy cheap L$, the better it is for them, otherwise they have to buy them on Lindex themselves for marketprice to be able to deliver, and thus their profit will be much lower.

Lasher Oh wrote: I' Something stinks about this whole LL initiative but I guess it will be months before we ever find out what... if ever. My guess would be that there have been a few meetings at LL's legal department, about how to deal with this new law. And those lawyers came to the concluse that LL could no longer hold his risk API under this new law. So what to do now, how to deal with these third party exchanges? Is there a possibility to cover them legally? Maybe, when they all sign up as MSB's... but how to control them? And what will this control cost? "Better to close them down, Joe..." "Much easier as well, Bill, no costs involved" "So we only have to rewrite that TOS a bit, send it to Rodvic, and work is done for today." "How are your bitcoins doing these days, Joe?" See, not one thought about the consequence of this choice for residents...

I don't make the US laws, Afrodite. It the responsibility to each business owner to be informed about laws that influence their business.But it seems that these TPE's did not follow the news about their field very closely. Otherwise they could have know for months already that this new law forces traders in virtual concurrency to register as a MSB at Financial Crimes Enforcement Networks. None* of them did act however... and now LL acts by closing their Risk API they suddenly wake up, or simply give up. (* None, I'm not sure about none, it might be the case that Anshe has seen this coming and took her measures, since she is still operating without any further explication)

You get me wrong. I don't think that exchange services are scammers or copyright infringers. But they gave the oppertunity for scammers to the change L$ to rl concurrency. It might not even have been the intention of the TPE's, but just a side effect of their services.

What I understand from it, but only from hearing say, not from official sources, is that is has to do with fighting fraud. Why these third party exchanges were able to pay so much faster, maybe because they were not responsible for fraud cases themselves since they were under LL's risk API.

iCade wrote: The prices has only mildly fluctuated and the VAT charge is €0.30 constant. Lately prices have barely changed. Are you sure that that is VAT, iCade? I thought that was the price for the service that paypal charges. Would be more logical, since VAT is always in % over the complete sum, and not a fixed amount.

Though most exchange compagnies did an accellent job for honest people who just wanted to buy or sell L$, at the same time they offer possibilities to cash out L$ obtained by scams. I do not support that scammers and copyright infringers can make anonymous account after account and go run with the money. Since LL does not want to limit the number of accounts or lock the door at the front side, it I don't think it is a bad idea to lock the door at the back side. Still I think that LL should have increased the possibilities on the Lindex before forcing us to sign this new tos. Because the effect of closing the backdoor for scammers, is that a lot of honest people are victimised by this new TOS.. I'm not going to sign for compagnies that leave the doors open for scams. I'd rather sign for a better Lindex that doesn't excluded any honest resident in whatever part of the world he lives.

Another issue might be buyers protection and sellers protection. This give possibilities to scam. For example in Paypal you have only sellers protection when you trade tangible goods. The seller protection does not count for virtual goods. A worst case scenario: a buyer comes to your shop and buys every single piece of your merchandise, and pays through Paypal or another third party that you use to receive money. After a few days he alerts Paypal that he did not receive anything, then it is up to you to prove that you actually did deliver that goods to Peter Johnson. You did not send anything to Peter Johnson though. So how are you going to proof that xXxBloodyCustomerxXx who you delivered some fantasy goods in a fantasy world is the same person as Peter Johnson?

As far as I know are that pay rates. You don't pay them for receiving money, only far sending money.

Thanks for explaining, Kahlie. So VirWox mainly profits from being able to cut out the exchange commission from Paypal, as far as I understand. And you profit from Virwox refund as a high volumne trader. Interesting to know, though it is too late now to make use of it. Also interesting to see that PP charge different rates for different people, probably depending on the country where you live. When I had to cash out 700k, at Lindex, I would put them for sale for 247. (It will take about 4 days to sell them at this rate.) Then, after payment of the exchange fee, I end up with 2731 usd at my account. I transfer them to Paypal - 1 dollar transfer costs, charged by LL. (This proces can take 3 to 10 days). In paypal I exchange to euro's, at the current exchange rate (1 USD = 0,751 EUR), and I end up with 2050, that goes to my bank account. Still a difference of 60 euro compared to your deal.

Did you link your PP to your account this way? Use your dash board in the browser, and then account -> billing info

There is still Treet TV and Metaverse TV

It has nothing to do with being pro or against Linden Lab. I don't defend LL for how they communicate about this new Tos to their residents and to third party exchanges, not at all. They did a real bad job, in my opinion. These TPE's should have given much more time to prepare for the changes in the first place. But be realistic. There is a new Tos, because there is a new law that Linden Lab must follow. This law is not going away by complaining at the forums that you no longer any ability to buy L$. It is a new situation you have to deal with, if you like it or not. Getting rid of your land, your shopping habits or of SL as a whole is one way to deal with it. If that is what you choose to do, be my guest. If you still want to participate in the SL economy there are only a few options left: - Use the Lindex (with your credit card or your verified paypal account). - Find a good friend willing to exchange money for you - Wait for the black market to arise, and change your money there with the risk to get scammed. When it is your aim to stay anonymous at any cost, the future black market is your only option.

Ideal is neither ideal when it comes to safety, see for example here

I think DutchX / SL Exchange did a very good job marketing their product in SL. I had an account with them as well in my beginning days. But for my needs (exchanging L$ to euros) I just found them too expensive. I could get better deals at Xstreet, and the best deals at Lindex. But many residents in Dutch community were happy to use DutchX / SL Exchange, and it was promoted to newbies as THE way for Dutch people to buy L$. Easy to use, pay with euros in methods they were already used to. Most did not mind to pay a bit more for this service. And though this exchange could not satisfy me personally as a customer because of their price tag, I do feel sorry for the people running this compagny. What is happening to them now is just horrible. They worked for years to build something up, and from one day to the other their source of income is destroyed. LL should have given them at least a month or three to arrange things for themselves and their customers. One the other hand, as a trader in virtual concurrency, you should inform yourself about laws that influence your business. When they had follewed the news about their field closely, they could have know for months already about this new law that forces traders in virtual concurrency to register as a MSB with FinCen.

What do you think the 'bankafschrift' van Dutchx says when they receive your money through Ideal? 25 euro received from anynomous user? What I know about DutchX is that they claimed in the golden days (2007) to make a profit from 40.000 euro a month. That there was a bankruptcy in about 2009, and that they then made a restart under the name DX Exchange,with a new CEO, and brothen their market to Europe in stead of just Holland. It is a compagny indeed, but a compagny cannot log in the second life, so the owner of the compagny is still just a resident of SL, like you and me. To keep this compagny going there are a lot of costs involved. Personel has to be paid, landowners who have their ATMs on their land have to be paid, third party services like Ideal, Paysafe or Ebanking have to be paid. And still the compagny has to make a profit... Guess who is the one paying for all these costs....

Azazael Heron wrote: With exhcange like Dutchx and ideal you stay more safe and anonimous. Why should LL tels me to switch to this way of payment,cause of fraude issues? While PayPal and CC are proven to be less safe. I doubt that. When you use Paypal nobody except Paypal knows your bank account. So when you pay Linden Lab through paypal, the only thing they get is your emailadres, not your bankaccount. When you use Dutchx with Ideal, the owner of Dutchx gets both your bankaccount number, your rl name and your avatar name. Dutchx is not a financial institute, it is just another SL resident doing business in SL. How sure can you be about the safety they offer? Who guaranties you that their database with both rl and residents names cannot be hacked?

Darktrooper, there should be a button on the top of the window "pay with my paypal account", use that one. That should work when you have a verified paypal account. To get your Paypal verified, it will take some days. You must link in to your Dutch bank account first. Then Paypal is going to send you two small amounts of money (a few cents). Once you have that on your bank account you must log in to Paypal again, and tell them both numbers of the amounts you received. From that moment on you are verified.

Natasha Hirons wrote: I think a lot of Dutch are screwed with this. Including me. Not only Dutch, it might effect thousands of people worldwide in other coutry's to who can only use other systems. That new ToS is not really a problem. I understand that. The problem is more with LL themselves. Giving residents virtually no other option then to do as they say. PayPal/CC. Like as the whole world is using credit cards and paypal accounts. Which is not the case. For the past 3.5 years I used DX Exhange in combination with iDeal, cause it is was the only way, and also the easiest way. Basically had L$ within a minute. And only used to put in a certain amount, to pay my monthly rent, and buy some nice things. For me there is no need to bring back L$ back to Euro's ... kinda like shopping too much :matte-motes-asleep-2: You are misinformed. DX Exchange was not the only way. It was just a more expensive way then buying L$ directly from the Lindex. But is was populair in the Dutch community, because DX did a good job in marketing their product. They gave landowners who did put up an ATM a percentage, and they kept a percentage for themselves. So everybody in that chain had benefit by keeping newcomers uninformed about other and cheaper ways to buy L$.

I do have a verified paypal account. It is not attached to a credit card, for I don't even own a credit card. To verify my paypal account I had to link it to my rl bank account. Then I had to wait a few days, then paypal did send two small amounts to my bank account. Then I had to log in to Paypal again, name the two amounts they had send me, and from that moment on my account was verified, and ACCEPTED by Linden Lab.

Most simple would be to use paypal, see Paypal NL

You can only pay euro bills with ideal, not dollar bills. So it's no option for SL.

see: this thread