Phil Deakins

You're a bit late to this party, Jo I'm sure you haven't read the whole thread so I'll sum up the parts that would interest you. Of course you can have 3m wide furnished rooms with a realistic height (I'm assuming that they are realistic in length - say 12'?. If they are very long, they aren't typical of RL sizes.), and you can have avatars in them IF they drastically change their camera positions AND use 2 hands to negotiate the furniture, but even then it's just too darned awkward and simply isn't anything like the way people get around rooms in RL or in SL. That's why I say it doesn't work. It's so forced that it cannot be the norm. You can do it as novelty, of course, but that's all. Even Coby, who was the one arguing on the RL-equivalent side, agreed that rooms need to be "slightly bigger", but she wouldn't say how slightly bigger they need to be, even though I asked several times. However, I've now seen a screenshot of her room - in another thread - and it's big. The word "slightly" is totally foreign to it.

I'm don't have an opinion one way or the other but, just out of interest, don't you find that the 'over the shoulder' view causes the avatar to take up too much viewer space? I've adjusted the camera in the past, for an experiment, and that's what I thought at the time, and the screen shot you posted looks that way too.

Kenbro Utu wrote: Looks like a spam placeholder to me... Me too.

Czari Zenovka wrote: How did I become the sole-named subject of this post when I only made a few posts in the other thread??? It's probably because, not many days ago, you stated your RL height, and the heights of some of your family as being generally tall. I think it was in my thread, so it would be fresh in Coby's mind. That's my guess, anyway.

1. You are mistaken that there has been any speculation that you have been trying to "force" everyone to be RL heights. But you have been debating in favour of it. You can't force anyone, and nobody even suggested it. 2. Nobody has even suggested that you support that every avatar should be the same height (the bolded sentence in your post), so I don't know why you wrote and emphasised that sentence. 3. You are mistaken if you believe that anyone has stated that RL and SL meters are not the same. What was said (by me) is that, if you treat them as being different, your desire that general avatar heights = general RL people heights is already true, so there is no need to change anyone's mind about avatar heights. 4. You yourself have agreed that things in SL cannot work properly in RL sizes. I.e you agreed that rooms need to be bigger for it to work. But, if rooms are bigger, furniture needs to be bigger to make the rooms look right. And then, of course, avatars need to be bigger to be right for the furniture. I don't know the purpose for this thread. Sizes in SL works fine as they are so why produce graphs that show RL and SL heights? The SL world is not the RL world. I can only assume that you are still attempting to persuade people to have RL equivalent heights. Why not be like almost all users and accept that SL is not a reflection of the real world and that things are bigger in SL by comparison. Apart from a tiny number of people, it works wonderfully well, whereas SL sizes = RL sizes doesn't work at all unless you abandon part of it - rooms. And finally. The SL world is what it is. It is not the real world. It is the SL world. Individuals can change their part of it for themselves, but, globally, it will always remain what it is, and the best thing that anyone can do is accept that fact. ETA: A question: since the sizes in SL have worked perfectly well for many years, why would people en masse suddenly want to change everything to RL-equivalent sizes? In the other thread, it was suggested that mesh clothes and LI might cause a general reduction is sizes, but someone in this thread suggested that it wouldn't (that's how I read it, anyway). If it does cause a reduction, so be it, but persuading the population to go down to RL-equivalent sizes, just so that a very tiny number of people can be satisfied, isn't going to happen. It's a genuine question though, Coby. Why would the population want to reduce everything to RL-equivalent sizes? What benefit would there be in doing it? To date, I don't think I've ever seen you say why it's a good idea - only that you prefer it. So please tell me why you think it's a good idea for avatars in general to be the equivalent heights of RL people.

I enjoy butting heads too. I always have In fact, I chatted with Aethelwine (see a couple of post above) while she was still in the store and that's exactly what I told her. I think a lot of people here know that I enjoy a good 'debate' Another aspect of forums that can add to the argumentativeness is the bittiness of the posts. E.g. I just summed up what I'm arguing in a single post and without too many words. But all that information gets scattered through a discussion, and comes out bit by bit. Also, discussions go off on little tangents which add to the arguments. In this thread, for instance, I mentioned gravity. It was just a little tangent that really didn't mean much. It was just another of saying that SL really isn't RL. But then gravity took on a bit of a life of its own in the thread lol. In some aapects, I really was being authoritative though. E.g. I know that furniture is sized according the general avatar heights. It's not just my opinion and I can be authoritative about it, just as you can be authoritative about falling objects .

Aethelwine wrote: Phil, I read this thread earlier and was under the impression you built furniture for large avis... I have just had a look at your store and whilst the kitchen units work surfaces come up my breasts, my feet go through the floor on your chairs... and my avi is under 6ft (without heels just over with heels). I am small by most SL standards although above average for real life. Some nice stuff btw. I would have bought more if I didn't already have umpteen sets of furniture and kitchens You are still in the store. I'm watching you right now Yes, it's not possible to suit all sizes of avatar, and I don't make a range of furniture sizes. I don't make stuff for large avs though - just for typical avs, of which I am one For instance. The seat on a sofa is one height only. A male and a female are usually different heights. Because the avatar thighs don't adjust when sitting, like RL ones do, it's not possible to make a sofa so that both male and female can sit on it and have their feet on the floor. What I do has to be a compromise - the male's feet go into the floor a little and the female's feet are a little above the floor. Some people will find their feet on the floor while the person sitting next to them will find their feet either in the floor or above it. because of SL limitation, seat heights must necessarily be a compromise.

Freya Mokusei wrote: Your stuff about the meter magically being different made no sense, I still have no reason why you pursued this line of reasoning. If you'd read the thread instead of jumping in at a tangent, you would have known the answer to that. I kept saying that meters are irrelevant but I'll explain and then perhaps it will be an end to it. 1. The general height of avatars sets the size of furniture which, in turn, sets the size of rooms. 2. The general height of avatars is taller than the general height of RL people, so furniture and rooms are bigger in SL than in RL. 3. If you really want to measure by meters, and there is no reason why not, then you have to accept that things in SL are generally bigger than their RL counterparts. 4. If you want things in SL to be generally the same sizes as their RL counterparts, then you can do it by (a) abandoning the idea that RL and SL meters are the same or (b) ignoring the word 'meters' altogether. If the word 'meter' is ignored altogether, or substituted in your mind for another word such as 'unit', or if the measurement of the SL meter is accepted as not being the same as the RL meter, then everything in SL already is the same general sizes as RL. It's only when you insist that RL and SL meters are the same, AND you insist on using meters as the unit of measurement, that things in SL are generally larger than in RL. But adopt a different attitude (one of those 2, for instance) and you find that the sizes of SL things are reasonably the same as the sizes of RL things. There is third, and much better, alternative. Accept that there is no reason why SL sizes should reflect RL. And, given that the camera makes huge difference, there is every reason for avatars to be taller than RL people, which has the knock-on effect of causing furniture and rooms to be bigger, of course. There is something to bear in mind - that it is only a very tiny number of people who really want sizes to match RL AND that those sizes are measured in meters. It's their choice, of course. They can't find much to suit what they want but it's entirely their own choice. My suggestion to assume that RL and SL meters are different was simply to allow those who want RL sizes to have them without making themselves unusually short. I never said that they are different. I suggested it as a means of achieving what those few want. Abandoning the word 'meter', and mentally substituting it for something else, was another suggestion by which they can have exactly what they want. It's only when they want to swim against the tide and insist that meters are used, and that they must reflect RL sizes, that they find themselves to be different to the rest of SL users. So you see that meters don't actually matter. They only matter for the few people who insist that their avatar, their furniture and their rooms match typical RL sizes - in meters. I hope that gets it all straight.

Dresden Ceriano wrote: No that we've gotten that settled, what was this thread about again? ...Dres Standard Sizes as applied to mesh clothes

Freya Mokusei wrote: SL gravity being the same as Earth gravity, means that you can compare falling velocities of objects that weigh equivilent mass in both worlds to demonstrate that the length of the meter is properly defined. Meters exist and govern the way SL operates regardless of your comprehension of the subject. I cannot state it any simpler than this. I suggest you read the thread. It has nothing whatsoever to do with gravity, falling velocities, or anything similar. If you can prove that the RL meter is the same as the SL meter with it, it doesn't make a scrap of difference to what this discussion has been about, which is the height of avatars, which means that the furniture has to fit them, which in turn means that rooms have to suit the avatars and the furniture. It's really very simple. And I still see that you fail to answer my 'units' question. But so what? Don't let the fact that it proves everything I've been saying ruin it for you, so keep on ignoring it Still, it does sound like you're finally bowing out, and that's most welcome.

Madelaine McMasters wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: Inasmuch as my question in the OP about standard sizes for mesh clothes was answered fully on page 1 of this thread, I see no purpose in continuing the thread. It currently has about 130 posts in it and yet the question was fully answered in the first few posts. Regarding the discussion on the sizes of things in SL as compared to their counterparts in RL, which accounts for almost all of the posts in the thread, and was not the topic of the thread, nobody has changed anybody's mind, and nobody will. So can we agree to differ (again) and leave it at that? Hugs all round :matte-motes-big-grin: and a big kiss to Coby :matte-motes-kiss: I've read almost none of the thread, but it seems to me that the issue isn't size so much as scale. In that regard, as in so many others, SL is a hot mess. ;-) Scale was never an issue in this debate, Maddy. Freya tried to say that it was, but she didn't understand what the debate was about, and she was the only one. She still appears to not understand. I don't think she read the thread either. It's nothing to do with scale.

Freya Mokusei wrote: As stated in my post above, I felt it was unfortunate that your resistance in wanting to understand this issue [...]. That's as far as I got in your post. Having read that bit it's obvious that the rest is irrelevant. I have no reluctance whatsoever to understand the issue. The thing is, having dealt with it for a full 6 years, I understand it perfectly. In fact, I'm an expert in it. What you really mean is that I show reluctance to agree with someone else, and that's true. I'm totally reluctant to accept that physics has anything to do with it - because it doesn't. But that's all you think about. It has nothing to do with the topic of this debate. I just had a quick glance at the first few words of your second paragraph, which shows clearly that you have no comprehension whatsoever about what we have been discussing. Physics doesn't enter into in any way shape or form. If you were to read the thread, then perhaps even you would get a smattering of understanding. You're the only one who has been majoring on physics, presumably because you read something in one of my posts about gravity - something you are still unable to see with your own eyes, incidentally, even though it's as plain as the nose on your face. But it was why I mentioned gravity and, if you'd followed the thread, you would have known that it has nothing to do with the issue in the debate It merely showed that SL is not the same as RL, and that's all. It has nothing to do with the topic of avatar, furniture and room sizes, which is the only thing that this discussion is about. I can only imagine, of course, but I do imagine that you saw me mention gravity and thought something like, "Aha!. I know a bit about gravity, and the way that the SL system deals with it, so I'll get into this one." Unfortunately you got into it without any apparent knowledge of what the discussion is about. It's very illuminatiig, though, that you chose to ignore the extremely relevant parts that you have no answers for. For instance, suppose that the word 'meter' is never mentioned in the SL system, and that a sim measures 256 units x 256 units. How tall should the average avatar be in units? Your silence on that shows that you have no idea about this discussion, or you simply don't have an answer, or you realise that it proves my point so you prefer not to answer. You only want to talk about physics, which doesn't enter into it. And, because I say physics doesn't enter into it, you say that I have no understanding of the issue. It's not very bright of you, is it? So I repeat my suggestion to you, which is to stay out of it until such times as you have at least a smattering of understanding, and leave it to the experts, of which 6 whole years of extremely successful involvement in it has proved me to be one. Nobody makes US$5000 a month from selling wrongly sized furniture, so I must have done it right, and that makes me an expert. Note: I didn't read any further into your post. When it looks like you have something valid to say on the subject, I'll read it, but I'm not holding my breath.

Freya. I posted that this thread had run its course I started the thread so I'm free to make that judgement) and asked for the discussion to finish. You responded positively and that was that. What happened that caused you to get stuck in again? especially with what amount to insults? Were you just bored and fancied doing a bit of trolling, or what? Frankly, you have no idea what you are talking about. You may understand physics but it has nothing to do with the topic that this thread morphed into. I, on the other hand, have made and sold furniture for 6 whole years in SL, and extremely successfully too. In other words, I know about the sizes of furniture in SL. I understand why it is necessary to make it bigger than RL furniture. I am an expert. All you know is about physics - and we only have your word for that. After all, you can't even see with your own eyes that gravity in SL is not always the same as it is in RL. It's blatantly obvious but you can't see it. If the best you can do is attempt to denigrate an actual expert in the field of furniture sizes, it's best if you keep out of it until such times as you have at least an inkling of understanding concerning the topic.

Maelstrom Janus wrote: As expected ban lines are okay until they inconvenience you - so what's the rule 'banlines fine until they upset PhilDeakins' - just as I expected...So if 4 different people surround you and use ban lines which one isnt going to have the right to put up the ban lines you think are fine everywhere else.... the word hypocrite comes to mind..... You can call me what you want but I've never been in the situation where ban lines surrounded my land. have you? I don't know anyone who has. I take your point about which neighbour should remove their ban lines. Nevertheless, I would moan if I were surrounded IF my plot was quite small - I should have said that before. And if none of the neighours would remove them, and if LL wouldn't do anything, I'd move.

LOL There isn't.

I have some buttons you can press any time you like, Ceka

That might be where it came from then. Years ago I had an L shaped piece of land that had a 32m parcel cut out of the inner corner, so that my parcel surrounded it on all 4 sides. For a long time nothing was done with the 32m, but then a verticle set of 3 ads were placed on it. So I built walls around the ads, the ads were moved higher, and I built higher - like a rectangular chimney. Eventually the owner IMed me about it. He was pleasant enough and I told him I was building a castle and he said that it's a very nice castle lol. I wasn't of course. All the time I had it in mind that, if he ARed my walls, LL may make me leave a way onto his land on the ground but nothing ever happened. He wasn't trying to sell the 32m. He really was just trying to display ads.

I have never used the marketplace to sell or buy but I have read stuff about it and it sounds like the seller delisted the item, to get rid of your review, and listed it again. Apparently that's against the marketplace rules so, if I were you, I'd act on that in the way that people have mentioned in this thread. That is unless yours was a false review, of course.

Oh I really don't want to get into continuing this because nothing will change. I'm very sorry if the extracts that you quoted were read as you said they were. I certainly didn't mean to rub you up the wrong way. We were debating, that's all. It was nothing personal. I do think you are "totally wrong" on this subject. That's why we've been debating it. I could address each one of the extracts but that would just lead to a continuation of the debate, and I think it's run its course already. The very last thing I want is anything negative between you and me.

I enjoyed the debate, and I learned from it - particularly the origin of the tall avatar. I'd never come across that before. But all the reasonings on both sides were no different to what they've been in the past (except that gravity was never mentioned in the past - not to my knowledge anyway ), and nobody was going to change anyone's mind so I thought the debate had run its course.

Inasmuch as my question in the OP about standard sizes for mesh clothes was answered fully on page 1 of this thread, I see no purpose in continuing the thread. It currently has about 130 posts in it and yet the question was fully answered in the first few posts. Regarding the discussion on the sizes of things in SL as compared to their counterparts in RL, which accounts for almost all of the posts in the thread, and was not the topic of the thread, nobody has changed anybody's mind, and nobody will. So can we agree to differ (again) and leave it at that? Hugs all round :matte-motes-big-grin: and a big kiss to Coby :matte-motes-kiss:

Perrie Juran wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: If all the parcels around my land set up ban lines, then yes I'd moan. I believe that LL would act on it too. A land owner has a right to go to his/her land on the ground. Sorry Phil, but I don't read that right anywhere. Unless the ban lines stopped you from TPing to your land, you still would have access to it. If they stoped that, then you LL would have a problem they needed to fix. You're probably right. It's something that I picked up by word of mouth years ago, and it may have been misinformation.

Freya Mokusei wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: As I said, I don't care about meters. They can be the same in each world, in which case things in the SL world are generally bigger than things in the RL world. They are the same in each world. Why would they be different? As I've shown and spoken of there is clear evidence to show that the meters we use in the edit window correspond to RL meters, it's a function of motion and physics. Making statements like that bolded above is why frustation is caused by this issue. I would have thought that, by now, you would have understood exactly what I meant. But if you want to argue it, they are not the same in each world and they never can be. SL is pixels as in no way relates physically with RL. An RL meter is represented physically. They are not the same at all. But you knew exactly what I meant and, for some reason known only to you, chose to argue about it just for the sake of it. What frustration? You feel frustrated about it? Me saying that RL and SL meters can be the same frustrates you? Be serious!

It doesn't matter whether or not it was a conscious decision. The fact is that it was decided long ago - blindly or otherwise. Perhaps 'evolved' is a better word to use. The current average avatar heights evolved to what they are now, albeit they evolved right at the very start. Mesh and LI might cause them to evolve again but it hasn't happened yet. Incidentally, I've only ever come across one person who set his height to 100, and I only know that because he said so - "everything is set to 100". I don't think I've ever asked anyone, which, of course, is why he's the only one I ever came across My avatar has never been set to 100 height and never even as high as 90. It's always been in the 80s and, for height, I've always fitted nicely in crowds.

Freya Mokusei wrote: I'm pretty happy to live and let live at this point. You clearly have your reasons for using only a perceptual set of measurements and as you've said they work for you. It works for everybody, except a tiny number of people who pedantically insist that SL sizes of stuff should be the same as their RL counterparts. It's silly, I know, but there are a tiny number of people who actually have that attitude. As I said, I don't care about meters. They can be the same in each world, in which case things in the SL world are generally bigger than things in the RL world. The population decided that many years ago, and it remains that way. There's no point in anyone arguing against it because it will change nothing. LL created the first avatar which was significantly taller that the RL average, but so what? SL is a completely different world so it really doesn't matter. I've read in this forum that there's a trend towards shorter avatars and I've accepted it whether or not it's true. It may be true but I haven't actually seen any evidence of it. I haven't shortened my avatar and I don't look any different in the midst of a group of avatars to how I always looked in the midst of a group of avatars. I don't look significantly taller compared to other avatars than I used to do, and I'm wondering if there really is such a trend, or if it's just a bit of wishful thinking. Nevertheless, if over time avatars do become generally shorter, and mesh may be a reason for it, then furniture and home creators will no doubt follow suit. But until then, things are as they are, and the tiny number of people who want RL sizes remain exceptions.