Madelaine McMasters

Dillon Levenque wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: Yep, this is what I think. We have a subconscious predisposition to recognize avatars as distinct even when we are conscious they are not. That's a difficult predisposition to fight. Virtual reality pushes a lot of subconscious buttons and not everybody thinks about that. I use self-deprecation to reduce tension in conversation and as a defense mechanism. If I'm the first to out my own faults, I don't leave a lot of ammunition for others. It's been a happy accident that I can use Snugs as a sort of out-of-body self deprecation. I have fun with it, others seem to as well. What I hadn't thought much about until now is whether others see the self-deprecation differently when it's out-of-body. You've defended me against Snugs accusations, but you've also defended me against myself. That appears to me to be the same reaction. Do you feel different about Snugs trashing Maddy vs. Maddy trashing Maddy? I can't say for sure. I believe my reaction is the same. I probably phrase things differently when I'm speaking to Snugs (often because Snugs is both acerbic and funny—that gives me more to work with than frankness) but I don't really think there's any difference in intent. Interesting about the comment concerning self-deprecation. I'm guilty of that myself, and have used it for the same reason you state. I was called out for that by a friend (Naz), long time ago. She said I overdid the self-deprecation thing. She referenced Jack Palance's Oscar speech: "Confidence is sexy". ;-) Snugs does give me the chance to be acerbic without harming anyone and I'm glad it gives more room to work. The best exchanges I have with friends are those in which they're not afraid to come after my foibles. They take the role of Snugs and I return the favor. We are generally silly and loveable creatures. Confidence is sexy, but self deprecation can fool the enemy into thinking you've got no deadly weapons. Pick the right tool for the job. ;-)

Dillon Levenque wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: Snugs and Maddy are partnered. That they are alts is mentioned in each's profile. The have the same skin, shape and hair (though in different colors). I've logged both into get-togethers with friends and each have been greeted and treated individually. Everybody is fully aware there's only one of me driving both avatars, but they all seem happy enough to treat them differently, though I make no (conscious?) effort to distinguish them behaviorally. Although my friends don't seem to think it's eerie in-world, I've been told by forumites that having both Maddy and Snugs here feels icky. So I wonder, was the person you mention really adept at portraying two characters, or is there a tendency for that to fly well in SL for other reasons? I think the latter: there is a tendency in SL for all of us to assume every avatar is a unique person. In spite of the fact we know that the same pair of hands is typing what we hear from you and Snugs, we still react to you both as individuals. That seems to work for both of you, it definitely works for me. By the way, I never thought Snugs was icky. Yep, this is what I think. We have a subconscious predisposition to recognize avatars as distinct even when we are conscious they are not. That's a difficult predisposition to fight. Virtual reality pushes a lot of subconscious buttons and not everybody thinks about that. I use self-deprecation to reduce tension in conversation and as a defense mechanism. If I'm the first to out my own faults, I don't leave a lot of ammunition for others. It's been a happy accident that I can use Snugs as a sort of out-of-body self deprecation. I have fun with it, others seem to as well. What I hadn't thought much about until now is whether others see the self-deprecation differently when it's out-of-body. You've defended me against Snugs accusations, but you've also defended me against myself. That appears to me to be the same reaction. Do you feel different about Snugs trashing Maddy vs. Maddy trashing Maddy? By the way, I think Snugs is despicable. ETA: I think the "icky" feeling comes from our expectation that one mind occupies one body and all the horror stories of alts in SL. My friends know the Snugs backstory and hopefully enjoy the humor of the arguments that often occur between Snugs and Maddy. For those unfamiliar with the two of me, I can see how it could seem a little sinister. I'm sure seeing me play devil's advocate in a meeting would feel different if I brought that viewpoint to the table in another body. SL is an interesting place to experiment, whether we know we're doing it or not.

Kenbro Utu wrote: Tex Monday wrote: Kenbro Utu wrote: Orca Flotta wrote: One of my friends is a gorgeous girl ... with a bulge in her panties. She's played by a RL male (d'uh) and totally open about her RL gender and SL trans. Nevertheless all of us are referring to him as "her" since the face and bewb value is so overwhelming in SL. I knew an avatar, or rather an avatar couple, early on in SL who were controlled by a single male in RL. He would log them in separately, or many times at the same time, and when togethe rthey would interact as a couple. There were only about 5 of us in the group of friends who knew they were one in the same person, but still they each had different personalities and you could not help but react differently to each accordingly. It was, however, very odd and weirdly funny to watch the couple "perform" for others who were completely unaware of the ruse. Edit: Wow, the forum ate all my spaces when it posted... it was almost one big long word. I've tried to do that, but sadly, I can only carry on meaningful conversations with myself in RL. :matte-motes-sunglasses-3: This "couple" was eerily adept in doing so. It was as if they were 2 different people. If they happened to tp in at the same time even the inner group in the know would greet each separately. Not sure if they had slex together :smileysurprised: It's not the strangest thing I have seen in SL, but it's in the top 10 on my list. :matte-motes-big-grin: Snugs and Maddy are partnered. That they are alts is mentioned in each's profile. The have the same skin, shape and hair (though in different colors). I've logged both into get-togethers with friends and each have been greeted and treated individually. Everybody is fully aware there's only one of me driving both avatars, but they all seem happy enough to treat them differently, though I make no (conscious?) effort to distinguish them behaviorally. Although my friends don't seem to think it's eerie in-world, I've been told by forumites that having both Maddy and Snugs here feels icky. So I wonder, was the person you mention really adept at portraying two characters, or is there a tendency for that to fly well in SL for other reasons?

Marigold Devin wrote: SegmentationFault String wrote: Hah! Thanks, Theresa. Glad to know it's not just me. Jewel and Marigold, after all these years I'm very familiar with the amazing skins available both for free and for reasonable proces in the marketplace. But as I said, I'm fond of my self-designed avatar with her nerdy, totally non-glamorous freckle face and thick glasses. Obviously I'll have to settle for somebody else's design since that feature no longer works properly, but it's a shame. It's also a moot point. Since my RL wife started joining me in SL, I almost always use my male avatar. She feels weird going out dancing with the homely nerd girl, and the male almost never wears any kind of makeup :-) Well, yes, you'd have to be blind or stupid not to be familiar with them. Or closed-minded or very frugal. Which is, I admit, what I thought you were being, by clinging on to the system skin look, which is truly awful. (Some of the bought in skins and shapes are also truly awful, but for very different reasons.) What's wrong with looking a bit Goth anyway? ... hands Mari a tube of Veet... and a spokeshave.

Czari Zenovka wrote: Tex Monday wrote: Malanya wrote: Wasn't this compared to RL rape? As you state the forums are open to discuss so anyone's reply that may be emotional is not allowed? It's a safe environment I believe even when people don't agree or respond with emotions, none of us have any idea how certain topics may hit home to others for various reasons. Just as you said you are expressing your opinions and so is everyone that posted I believe. I don't believe it was compared to RL rape by the OP. She asked if your avatar could be raped. The OP never compared it to RL..other people made that connection. And you are of course correct. You can't have a discussion in here without being emotional..especially on a topic as hot as this. I didn't say it correctly and I apologize. Everyone is entitled to express their opinions. I thought that Trinity's was a bit ruder than it could have been. That is why I responded the way I did. If you find that I"m wrong, then so be it..and I apologize for that as well. If someone has to ask if an "avatar" can be raped...I can't think of a synonym strong enough for STUPID! As for Trinity's response - you have no idea what her or any one of us who think this is a stupid and cruel topic have been through in our lives. ESPECIALLY men! I've one of the 75% of US women who've never been raped, so I'm pretty sure I've no idea what it's like, especially for the 3% of US men who've endured the anguish. I'd rather include than exclude people from the conversation.

Good morning Hippie... and the rest of you Kids!!!

Malanya wrote: I still don't think technology will ever imitate anything about a human 100% but that's just my thought and doesn't mean it's set in stone This seems like a stretch to me as well. So long as we don't set our beliefs in stone, I think we'll be just fine. ;-)

Malanya wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: Malanya wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: Ceka Cianci wrote: i just can't see it as possible at all to recreate something so tramatic and violent and invasive and soul leeching.. just leaving you dead inside and out.. i can't see a cybor rape leading daymares and nightmares and to years of therapy.. i just cannot grasp it being possible.. A few years ago, I wouldn't have believed that you could deliver a spiritual epiphany in a pill... a single pill. But there is mounting evidence that psilocybin (the active psychotropic ingredient in magic mushrooms) can have that effect. We're learning which neurotransmitters and modulators are responsible for feelings of sexual attraction and personal attachment and therapies are being imagined to treat abused people for their addiction to their abusers. Can we imagine a future in which drugs might be used to rapidly create attraction and attachment where it would not normally occur, allowing abusive people to quickly render their victims "unwilling" to protest their abuse? It might be impossible to detect that's been done if the chemicals occur naturally in the brain, and if they can jump-start processes (like love) that the brain will continue on its own after the initial administration. One dose of psilocybin appears to have life long effects. Meanwhile, people find themselves increasingly more vulnerable as they (often unwittingly) lose privacy to the internet. As a result, I think we'll see new forms of coercion. As for the cyber, and eventually cyborg aspects of this discussion, if you believe in Ray Kurzweil's end game of the merger of man and machine, then it may someday become impossible to separate real and virtual experiences, which might occur simultaneously. My technical journals are filled with articles predicting the embedding of digital sensory and cognitive aids in the not too distant future. If and when this occurs, we'll be facing some ethical issues as the owners of these implanted devices may not be able to avoid the influence of devices which may not be entirely secure. I also think that the descriptions of RL rape I've read here cover only a fraction of actual rapes. Rape needn't be physically violent and doesn't require immediate objection by the victim. A substantial number of rapes are committed against victims in altered states induced by drugs and/or alcohol, who were not aware of the rape until after the fact. There are a great many rape victims who do not require therapy, do not feel dead after the fact and do not feel as if their souls have been leached. They have been raped nonetheless. I certainly understand the concerns people feel about comparing SL experiences to RL rape, but as I look towards the future, I think it's prudent to consider the possibility that we'll be able to induce significant mental and emotional harm in ways that we currently "cannot grasp being possible". Have you ever been a victim of a violent crime? Where do you get your rape statistics, Wikipedia? Please, you can project your Jetson theory but I don't think you understand no matter what simulator, pill, technology, it will NEVER compare to a RL experience, there will always be an element left out, because we are human. I am so over this ridiculous thread and the theories of future stimulation crap. I'm not sure what it is about my characterization of rape that's bothering you. That it happens in many ways does not make it any less horrific. That it happens in many ways does make it important to consider those ways, and their implications for other kinds of abuse. I don't think you are advocating that we reserve our compassion only for those who's rapes are fast and physically violent and precipitate all the other dreadful effects listed by Trinity and Ceka and others. I don't happen to believe that technology will race out ahead of us, allowing rampant abuse. The reason I don't believe that will happen is because there are people, like me, who don't believe it's impossible. Nothing is bothering me about your characterization of rape, I responded to your post. I asked where you got your statistics when you mentioned some need therapy and some don't, etc,. I referred to theories you mentioned as "Jetson" l only because it reminds me of the future. I don't think anything that comes along in the future can truly represent any rl experience good or bad because you can't replace a human with any technology (I won't bring up cloning that's another topic still not the same). My post wasn't meant to be offensive to any of your replies. I am not sure what you are referring to exactly about what I am advocating for. Well, I said what I didn't think you were advocating for, but you did seem to take issue with my observation that rape, and its effects, are complex. I don't think we're in disagreement over the significance of rape, though we might sound like we are. As for not replacing humans with technology, I'm not sure. The future is a big place. The Dalai Lama allows for the potential of human "souls" (not his word) to be transferred to machines of sufficient complexity. He doesn't say how that would happen, but it doesn't seem impossible to him. And we needn't replace humans with technology, we only have to insert technology in the path of our experiences to a sufficient degree to make a difference. How many of us have found that SL amplifies and accelerates relationships? Although we all know that our SL beauty is purchased, our ancient wiring hasn't a clue. It sees a pretty face (which are all the more pretty because we love symmetry and it's easier to create only one side of a face, then mirror it, creating.... symmetry!), releases the appropriate neurochemicals and off we go. I think it's important to understand that's happening, and that those old mechanisms can't evolve fast enough to keep up with the ways we're creating to fool them.

I took no offense, Ceka. I've a great deal of respect for you as well. And I don't believe we'll find the future so bad that you'll be happy to be deep in the dirt when it comes. I'm fascinated by our increasing understanding of the mind and the glimmers of hope we see for helping those in anquish. Of course there will be perils along the way, there always have been. But I'm confident that we'll work our way through it all, just as we've done so far. It's been a messy trip, but how many of us would want to live on Earth as it was a hundred, or a thousand years ago? You said... "you are one of the smartest people i have ever had the pleasure to listen to..or read their posts i mean." Thank you for that lovely compliment, but let me remind you that we all, and perhaps myself in particular, usually sound smarter when we we've the time to compose our thoughts in print than when we're forced to think fast enough to speak in real time. I assure you, I don't sound terribly smart face to face. At least that's what people tell me. ;-)

Trinity Yazimoto wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: I don't think I've ever claimed in this thread that one can be mind raped in SL. As I said, nothing here comes close. But I am allowing for a future in which significant harm can be delivered virtually. To proclaim that it can't ever happen is, I think, dangerous. The ethics of such futures are already being discussed. Evidence suggests that a single administration of psilocybin can have life-long effects. There is also growing evidence that virtual experiences can have effects similar to hallucinogenic drugs, as both can present surreal experiences that our brains attempt to resolve by rewiring neural pathways. Rape is one of many potentially life changing events and is not the only physchological trauma that can result in the plethora of damning consequences you've described. I'm sure we'll have new words to describe the sorts of psychological harm that may be inflicted on us in the future in ways we've not yet imagined. I'd rather we start thinking about that now, and we are. I don't believe technology will get us to the point I'm describing anytime soon, and I believe the ethical issues will be addressed along the way... but that's just a belief. Maddy, there are already, without any technology help, tons of mind harms possible... i hear you, but for me this exist already without any technology . And some are indeed extrem pain too. Of course, technology will add some more.. i dont have any doubt about this.. and even, it has already started... but as you said, these harms have different words to describe them... rape is not one of them.. i just reacted on the use of the word "rape" bec words are not innocent and using them without the right purpose can be dangerous. And i will always fight aggainst this kind of banalization. I get that, Trin. I thought I was being careful to say that I didn't think rape was possible in SL, but that there's reason to be wary about the use of technology to cause psychological harm in the future. I didn't see Staralien's OP as demeaning rape, but rather as opening up a discussion of how, as technology gets closer to our brains, it presents a challenge for us to manage.

Malanya wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: Ceka Cianci wrote: i just can't see it as possible at all to recreate something so tramatic and violent and invasive and soul leeching.. just leaving you dead inside and out.. i can't see a cybor rape leading daymares and nightmares and to years of therapy.. i just cannot grasp it being possible.. A few years ago, I wouldn't have believed that you could deliver a spiritual epiphany in a pill... a single pill. But there is mounting evidence that psilocybin (the active psychotropic ingredient in magic mushrooms) can have that effect. We're learning which neurotransmitters and modulators are responsible for feelings of sexual attraction and personal attachment and therapies are being imagined to treat abused people for their addiction to their abusers. Can we imagine a future in which drugs might be used to rapidly create attraction and attachment where it would not normally occur, allowing abusive people to quickly render their victims "unwilling" to protest their abuse? It might be impossible to detect that's been done if the chemicals occur naturally in the brain, and if they can jump-start processes (like love) that the brain will continue on its own after the initial administration. One dose of psilocybin appears to have life long effects. Meanwhile, people find themselves increasingly more vulnerable as they (often unwittingly) lose privacy to the internet. As a result, I think we'll see new forms of coercion. As for the cyber, and eventually cyborg aspects of this discussion, if you believe in Ray Kurzweil's end game of the merger of man and machine, then it may someday become impossible to separate real and virtual experiences, which might occur simultaneously. My technical journals are filled with articles predicting the embedding of digital sensory and cognitive aids in the not too distant future. If and when this occurs, we'll be facing some ethical issues as the owners of these implanted devices may not be able to avoid the influence of devices which may not be entirely secure. I also think that the descriptions of RL rape I've read here cover only a fraction of actual rapes. Rape needn't be physically violent and doesn't require immediate objection by the victim. A substantial number of rapes are committed against victims in altered states induced by drugs and/or alcohol, who were not aware of the rape until after the fact. There are a great many rape victims who do not require therapy, do not feel dead after the fact and do not feel as if their souls have been leached. They have been raped nonetheless. I certainly understand the concerns people feel about comparing SL experiences to RL rape, but as I look towards the future, I think it's prudent to consider the possibility that we'll be able to induce significant mental and emotional harm in ways that we currently "cannot grasp being possible". Have you ever been a victim of a violent crime? Where do you get your rape statistics, Wikipedia? Please, you can project your Jetson theory but I don't think you understand no matter what simulator, pill, technology, it will NEVER compare to a RL experience, there will always be an element left out, because we are human. I am so over this ridiculous thread and the theories of future stimulation crap. I'm not sure what it is about my characterization of rape that's bothering you. That it happens in many ways does not make it any less horrific. That it happens in many ways does make it important to consider those ways, and their implications for other kinds of abuse. I don't think you are advocating that we reserve our compassion only for those who's rapes are fast and physically violent and precipitate all the other dreadful effects listed by Trinity and Ceka and others. I don't happen to believe that technology will race out ahead of us, allowing rampant abuse. The reason I don't believe that will happen is because there are people, like me, who don't believe it's impossible.

Trinity Yazimoto wrote: Maddy, i dont think you understand well what some of us are saying and you are mixing a lot of things.. firstly; about the future.... i cant tell what will be the future... i dont think someone can.. so lets keep talking for now.. what we are experiencing in our present. Future can only be hypothetic... secondly, law make a distinction between sexual aggression and rape.. both are in the same category. Rape is a form of sexual agression but the extrem one. Both are bad. Both leave pains (psychological or physical or both). Both are punished by the law. a rape commited using drugs is still a rape.. and yes, there are already drugs existing about this.. (GHB but not only) a rape can also be commited under influence : a parent, a teacher, etc.. someone with authority and who abuse it for raping the person. They are also called rape. Rape is rape. Avatar abuse, just like a puppet "abuse" is not a rape. its just what it is : an avatar "abuse". Noone says a rape need to be physically violent... the violence is above all psychological... a lot of pp raped doesnt have physical harms... BUT almost every person raped, have psychological harms.... some exemples : a person raped has 50 % more probablility than non raped persons to turn into drug addiction or alcoholism, a lot have trouble with alimentation and trouble with the mental representation of their body..not to mention all forms of selfdestructions and depressions. having been raped can, for example, make a person unable to make enter in her/his house, the electricity worker for exemple, a doctor, the gazman etc , if there is not another person that she/he trust in the house at the moment. this same person, can also have taken a lot of kg after the rape, that she/he wont never loose bec she/he cant accept to feel to be desirable... she would like.. but for her being desirable means being vulnerable.. this same person, can have trouble of behavior with the other gender.. never trust them, being deeply afraid of them, terrorized... never accept to stay alone with one of them. That will make her/his life hard for building a normal life and a family. this same person may feel amputed from all his/her body and so neglect totally what is happening to her/his body... this same person will never be able to hang out by night anymore... neither to hang out in fields in the days ... in short this same person will never feel to have the same level of freedoms from the other ones. There will be tons of nomansland for this person. its not only physical harms, Maddy, its ALL your life that will never be the same.... it will affect everything in your life, every day, everywhere, and often forever. So no, Maddy.... whatever will be possible to be done in the future.... a rape will still remain a rape, and the definition given by the law, is that rape is a physical abuse, and in difference of the generic sexual agression, the rape has always an insertion of smth (a part of sm1 else or an object) inside the body of the victim. And this, Maddy, its impossible thru technology for now..... and even less in SL. saying you can be raped if someone abuse your avatar, is just same that if you will say ive killed you bec ive cut the head of your real puppet..... the one who will have the head off, will be your puppet, not you... of course, you can be sad, of course it can even cause psychological harms but in any case wont be qualified as i commited a murder on your person... In conclusion, id like to add that using words like this for non right purpose is dangerous... it banalize the word and empty it from is real meaning..... just like when some vegans make the analogy betweek nazi camps and killing animals in slaughterhouses..... This is dangerous.... and as someone said, rape is a serious topic, enough for not joke with it, neither banalize it..... if now, pp accept to use the term rape for avatar abuse, so when a person will be raped in rl and she will complain, pp will think its not so horrible bec they will have in mind that a rape can be commited thru an avatar aswell... their look on the real rape will be different. So noone is denying, there can be agressions made via technology, but they just have different words for this.... Rape is not one of those. I don't think I've ever claimed in this thread that one can be mind raped in SL. As I said, nothing here comes close. But I am allowing for a future in which significant harm can be delivered virtually. To proclaim that it can't ever happen is, I think, dangerous. The ethics of such futures are already being discussed. Evidence suggests that a single administration of psilocybin can have life-long effects. There is also growing evidence that virtual experiences can have effects similar to hallucinogenic drugs, as both can present surreal experiences that our brains attempt to resolve by rewiring neural pathways. Rape is one of many potentially life changing events and is not the only physchological trauma that can result in the plethora of damning consequences you've described. I'm sure we'll have new words to describe the sorts of psychological harm that may be inflicted on us in the future in ways we've not yet imagined. I'd rather we start thinking about that now, and we are. I don't believe technology will get us to the point I'm describing anytime soon, and I believe the ethical issues will be addressed along the way... but that's just a belief.

Ceka Cianci wrote: i just can't see it as possible at all to recreate something so tramatic and violent and invasive and soul leeching.. just leaving you dead inside and out.. i can't see a cybor rape leading daymares and nightmares and to years of therapy.. i just cannot grasp it being possible.. A few years ago, I wouldn't have believed that you could deliver a spiritual epiphany in a pill... a single pill. But there is mounting evidence that psilocybin (the active psychotropic ingredient in magic mushrooms) can have that effect. We're learning which neurotransmitters and modulators are responsible for feelings of sexual attraction and personal attachment and therapies are being imagined to treat abused people for their addiction to their abusers. Can we imagine a future in which drugs might be used to rapidly create attraction and attachment where it would not normally occur, allowing abusive people to quickly render their victims "unwilling" to protest their abuse? It might be impossible to detect that's been done if the chemicals occur naturally in the brain, and if they can jump-start processes (like love) that the brain will continue on its own after the initial administration. One dose of psilocybin appears to have life long effects. Meanwhile, people find themselves increasingly more vulnerable as they (often unwittingly) lose privacy to the internet. As a result, I think we'll see new forms of coercion. As for the cyber, and eventually cyborg aspects of this discussion, if you believe in Ray Kurzweil's end game of the merger of man and machine, then it may someday become impossible to separate real and virtual experiences, which might occur simultaneously. My technical journals are filled with articles predicting the embedding of digital sensory and cognitive aids in the not too distant future. If and when this occurs, we'll be facing some ethical issues as the owners of these implanted devices may not be able to avoid the influence of devices which may not be entirely secure. I also think that the descriptions of RL rape I've read here cover only a fraction of actual rapes. Rape needn't be physically violent and doesn't require immediate objection by the victim. A substantial number of rapes are committed against victims in altered states induced by drugs and/or alcohol, who were not aware of the rape until after the fact. There are a great many rape victims who do not require therapy, do not feel dead after the fact and do not feel as if their souls have been leached. They have been raped nonetheless. I certainly understand the concerns people feel about comparing SL experiences to RL rape, but as I look towards the future, I think it's prudent to consider the possibility that we'll be able to induce significant mental and emotional harm in ways that we currently "cannot grasp being possible".

http://www.infinitecat.com

Heart Brimmer wrote: Donna Wyx wrote: "Seriously??? You DO realize that NO ONE can rape anyone in SL without YOUR consent, right????" What if they have a cannon that fires a giant **bleep** and it locks onto your AV and goes up the **bleep** or anus quickly? Very little can be done to stop that. You are aware that you have not been physically impaled by whatever is launched out of a cannon, right? It's pixels, nothing more. It didn't really happen to you in real life. Please just click the little x in the right hand corner, if you think SL is ANYTHING like RL. I think a functional MRI of a brain experiencing SL might show that it does think it's at least a little like RL, though not yet enough so to invite much moral/ethical/legal interest. Give it time, Ms. Legal Person ;-) In the meantime, you'll have your hands full dealing with issues raised by loss of privacy and the Internet's inability to forget (forgetting is one of humanity's valuable traits). We are discovering that while our hi-tech toys are disposable, the shadows we cast in their mesmerizing light are immortal.

Trinity Yazimoto wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: Trinity Yazimoto wrote: the biggest pain after a rape, is not physical, but mental... you just feel like you have been amputed from all your body.... i dont think you can experience this thru an avatar.... ... yet. There are those who believe we'll get to the point where our "virtual" experiences will be indistinguishable from our "real" ones. If you believe it's all neurochemistry (as I do), it's not a huge stretch to imagine driving a brain to a truly harmfull state via real experiences, virtual ones, or pharmacological means. I in no way wish to diminish the horror of RL rape, but I do find it interesting to ponder our growing ability to inflict pain (or pleasure) on each other using technology. it cant be in any way the same pain..... as i said... indeed, you can feel some hurts and pains thru sl but you cant call them "rape".. you cant even compare them ... its not denying the fact you can hurt other using technology... but damn the list of pains is enough wide like this... no need to call it rape... its not and cant be a rape... I did say "... yet". I believe your "can't"s will be eroded by technological progress. It might not be a "rape", but something as egregious will happen via means we haven't yet imagined... or have.

Trinity Yazimoto wrote: the biggest pain after a rape, is not physical, but mental... you just feel like you have been amputed from all your body.... i dont think you can experience this thru an avatar.... ... yet. There are those who believe we'll get to the point where our "virtual" experiences will be indistinguishable from our "real" ones. If you believe it's all neurochemistry (as I do), it's not a huge stretch to imagine driving a brain to a truly harmfull state via real experiences, virtual ones, or pharmacological means. I in no way wish to diminish the horror of RL rape, but I do find it interesting to ponder our growing ability to inflict pain (or pleasure) on each other using technology.

Tamara Artis wrote: As Tex said, imagine a girl who is new to SL, and a guy who offers to explain her stuff, who buys her pretty shiny necklace or some other scripted thing, or tells her to turn on RLV saying it makes it easier to play the game, gives her a blindfold and other handy little things that once put on your avi, makes you pretty helpless, all with the excuse of "adding a friend" and the poor noob girl hesitates to just say no or quit sl. I have a cute thing, forgot the name, called forced something, and once I sit on the ball I can only watch whats going on so if some other person doesn't know whats it all about uses it, you can say that the person did not gave their consent, which is important in determing was it a rape or not. I am not sure if you can prosecute the person in rl because there are no physical evidences to confirm what the victim claims. Maybe in some distant future when the majority of online interactions get sorted by "law people" I think it would be very hard to make a case for emotional abuse of someone who'd voluntarily entered a social network and was quickly victimized. I believe it would be a valid argument to say that if a person can suffer emotional harm from someone in a social network within days of joining it (if not much longer), they're not competent to participate. We do recognize the limited competency of children, so they're a special case. For something like online fraud, the required evidence is obtainable. If we're talking about pure emotional/mental harm, absent any other evidence (like loss of tangible property) I think it would be tough to prove. But as you say, in some distant future, we shouldn't be surprised to see that technology enables some very interesting lawyering.

Dillon Levenque wrote: Anyone who visits the feed wondering about Second Life must be getting a really really bad impression, though. If you just walk around looking you'll see stuff you really wish you hadn't. Yep. I wonder about the wisdom of making the feeds visible to the general public. The log-in page has looked like a cesspool at times. I'm completely unable to determine whether, when it comes to understanding the image that creates, LL is clueless, I am clueless... or we're all well aware.

Czari Zenovka wrote: Dillon Levenque wrote: I don't believe there are any guidelines whatever regarding the Feeds. I've seen everything from links to porn videos, porn pictures (RL and SL), advertisements for escorts, revelations of SL avatars' RL identification (and/or RL location of residence), you name it. Bleh! Glad I avoid the feeds like the plague. I can see reason to avoid the feeds, but you can get a vaccine against Yersinia Pestis (the Plague), which can't survive cooking and might just be a yummy addition to a good pot of chili. ;-)

Muletta wrote: ...say a BIG thanks and hugs to all of you, who tirelessly are spending your time to give us answers to question after question. I think you should know, that you really make a great difference, and are a big help with all your knowledge and information, you are given in this forum...I have learned a lot, asking questions myself or just by reading others threads, where you helpful people solve many different problems for other SL-residents. THANK YOU ALL :matte-motes-smile: I'll add to your thanks, particularly to those who I imagine are damned tired of answering question after question, yet are mad enough to do it anyway. They know who they are. Unfortunately, so do the rest of us. ;-)

Malanya wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: Malanya wrote: Amethyst Jetaime wrote: Malanya wrote: Isn't a person who is raped in RL still physically injured in some way even if there are no cuts, bruising, etc? I mean a physically forced act has to injure you even if in the slightest way. Generally I agree. However I have taken self defense classes that discuss rape and law enforcement officers will sometimes tell you if you are raped in RL and see no way to prevent it, the best thing to do is not resist so you won't get injured. So there may be a very slight possibility this could happen. There is also the situation where someone is forced to have sex with someone because they have a gun pointed at them and if they don't cooperate they will get shot. To me this is just another form of rape. For the sake of this discussion I just brought it up as a hypothetical situation to make my point that you should be able to prosecute someone who virtually rapes you, should such a thing ever be possible, just as you could in RL if you were raped but suffered no actual physical harm. Oh I agree with you that if there is no way to get out of the situation to not resist. My point was there is always some amount of physical harm when force is used especially in RL rape. I just can't see anyone being virtually raped or that ever being something that could be true, as people sign up for virtual accounts, people know how to click on TP to area and people also know how to shut the computer down. If someone engages in RP they knowingly got there so they can leave. As Dres pointed out if someone is in your computer that's a different type of crime and that should definitely be prosecuted. If people give out passwords or RL information and then someone threatens them, they should have known better to not have given out that info as common sense would tell you not to. If the person is mentally unable to make such decisions the caregiver I still feel is responsible for allowing an individual un supervised internet use. Coercion needn't be physical. The goal and result of the coercion needn't be physical. People go to jail every day for committing crimes in which no physical harm is done to an individual. I'm way over my head on the legal issues here, but I think it's only a matter of time until the overarching ideas behind "mind rape" come before the court, if they haven't already. You're right coercion does not need to be physical, of course people go to jail for crimes that do not involve any physical harm. I just do not agree to anything called "mind rape" in a virtual world where someone chooses to participate. Anything outside of that like computer hacking is definitely a crime. As I stated in prior posts, if you can sign up you can hit the X to close the viewer. If you can be swayed into things by force on the internet in a virtual setting to which you chose to first act out then the problem goes deeper than any of us can realize. I can also see if such a thing as "mind rape" was considered to be a crime how many people would abuse that and be dishonest because of some personal spat they had with another, look at all the drama and BS on here now with jealousy, get you back for leaving me, etc. I just don't see it and anyone who is too young or emotionally unstable should have supervision (and yes there are parents and caregivers that work and still control online activity) so responsibility lies elsewhere to me. Yep, I've yet to see a case of SL coercion that comes within a country mile of "mind rape". That said, "just click X" isn't always as easy as it sounds. We invest a lot of ourselves in our relationships here and coercion here can be very real. Clicking X often disconnects one from far more than the harasser. I do wonder if we'll continue to see an erosion of personal responsibility as we learn more about ourselves. I sure hope not.

Duckie Dickins wrote: LL is developing a new particle type called ribbon which should solve this issue. We were shown an image of what ribbon would look like at the beta server user group held every thursday at 3pm in the morris region on the beta grid by Maestro Linden. There wasn't an ETA for the new particle type but its being worked on and is on the "coming soon" list. I like the "ribbon" euphemism. I wonder how many will use it for making ribbons. ;-)

Malanya wrote: Amethyst Jetaime wrote: Malanya wrote: Isn't a person who is raped in RL still physically injured in some way even if there are no cuts, bruising, etc? I mean a physically forced act has to injure you even if in the slightest way. Generally I agree. However I have taken self defense classes that discuss rape and law enforcement officers will sometimes tell you if you are raped in RL and see no way to prevent it, the best thing to do is not resist so you won't get injured. So there may be a very slight possibility this could happen. There is also the situation where someone is forced to have sex with someone because they have a gun pointed at them and if they don't cooperate they will get shot. To me this is just another form of rape. For the sake of this discussion I just brought it up as a hypothetical situation to make my point that you should be able to prosecute someone who virtually rapes you, should such a thing ever be possible, just as you could in RL if you were raped but suffered no actual physical harm. Oh I agree with you that if there is no way to get out of the situation to not resist. My point was there is always some amount of physical harm when force is used especially in RL rape. I just can't see anyone being virtually raped or that ever being something that could be true, as people sign up for virtual accounts, people know how to click on TP to area and people also know how to shut the computer down. If someone engages in RP they knowingly got there so they can leave. As Dres pointed out if someone is in your computer that's a different type of crime and that should definitely be prosecuted. If people give out passwords or RL information and then someone threatens them, they should have known better to not have given out that info as common sense would tell you not to. If the person is mentally unable to make such decisions the caregiver I still feel is responsible for allowing an individual un supervised internet use. Coercion needn't be physical. The goal and result of the coercion needn't be physical. People go to jail every day for committing crimes in which no physical harm is done to an individual. I'm way over my head on the legal issues here, but I think it's only a matter of time until the overarching ideas behind "mind rape" come before the court, if they haven't already.

Amethyst Jetaime wrote: Malanya wrote: Isn't a person who is raped in RL still physically injured in some way even if there are no cuts, bruising, etc? I mean a physically forced act has to injure you even if in the slightest way. Generally I agree. However I have taken self defense classes that discuss rape and law enforcement officers will sometimes tell you if you are raped in RL and see no way to prevent it, the best thing to do is not resist so you won't get injured. So there may be a very slight possibility this could happen. There is also the situation where someone is forced to have sex with someone because they have a gun pointed at them and if they don't cooperate they will get shot. To me this is just another form of rape. For the sake of this discussion I just brought it up as a hypothetical situation to make my point that you should be able to prosecute someone who virtually rapes you, should such a thing ever be possible, just as you could in RL if you were raped but suffered no actual physical harm. Courts do not require evidence of physical harm in rape cases. They simply need evidence that non consentual sex occurred. A man who trips over a frog and brushes my breast with his hand on his way to the ground may leave a bruise on me and be innocent of any wrong doing. Another man who gently and purposefully brushes my breast with his hand in the elevator as he escorts me to my job interview will have some explaining to do, even though there's no physical harm.