Rick Nightingale

I'll get on that later @Beq Janus - maybe tomorrow when I can concentrate better on what I'm doing. Your very compressed summary is correct. I concur regarding the 'truncated' gzip file being usable - being odd. I would have expected it to be simply unusable if truly truncated. I did look inside a truncated gzip and inside was the (shorter than it should be) .inv.llsd file. Yes, if the .t file writing is truncated by the start of Window's shutdown process, but then somehow the gzip process is still started on that truncated file... that would answer that but be quite 'interesting' as you say. Certainly it is related to Windows being shut down before the cache file is fully written, whatever the details of that are. I've run too many tests now without any deviation from what I have observed. Quick shutdown = 'truncated' cache file = missing inventory next time; 100% of the time. If I wait until I see the gzip file finish writing before shutting down... no problem.

Occasional frog: Or a greeny mer (not my usual triton): Sometimes a half-wulluf: Often a horny little demon: ...who grows up bigger: And sometime, just sometimes, a human:

I only use gmail for spammy, unimportant stuff that I don't really care about google indexing. Like general shops and forum registrations. I'm not into reading email on a web page at all. I've tried various PC email clients over the years, from free to expensive, but found MS Outlook to be the most reliable and versatile overall with numerous email accounts and types. That bugs me (being MS), but so be it. I also now use Mailbird, just for gmail, since they changed their authentication to prevent my version of Outlook loggin in. My accounts are a catch-all email account that I pay for at an ISP and have used since the Internet's very early days, and several on my own domains.

Yep - I was quite explicit as to the cause once I figured it out, as I have been in this thread. I basically got told I shouldn't be turning my PC off until it was ready (never mind about how should I know when that is? Or why a program isn't doing the obvious, simple thing of pausing shutdown while it saves its data) and it was my own fault (or I should talk to Microsoft about it, lol). End of story, lol. Good luck with yours - I've voted and watched it. I'm wary of commenting in case they just link yours to mine and close yours too.

My Jira got closed as 'intended behaviour' after jumping through the usual hoops. https://jira.firestormviewer.org/browse/SUP-27008

LOL - it's years since I've heard that one! But then it's years since I did serious (i.e. paid) programming.

Nope - usually a cloven-hooved demon. Occasionally a Triton who can shape-shift between tail and legs. If not that, it varies... but basic human probably accounts for <25%.

I have often done quick relogs too... I did wonder if that was also a cause since I noticed inventory loss issues on alts at times other than powering off/on the PC (but it could be that I had already had the loss on that alt and only just logged it in since it happened). I never put that to the test once I figured out the powering off issue but it seems likely. If the viewer is relogged on the same alt, trying to unpack and load a cache file before the previous viewer's thread has finished writing it... I can see that happening now I know the viewer's exit code is poor. In my case I usually relog like that because I've had several alts logged in together, testing something or other. Eventually the viewers can get a bit flaky when doing that, depending on what I'm up to and the graphics loads on them, so I'll log them all out and relog once they've all closed. I've not done recently because my work pattern is a bit different right now, and since making sure I don't power off for a few minutes (I watch the cache files being written if I'm just waiting) I haven't had any loss. On occasion though muscle-memory has kicked in and I've shut down after the viewer closes and, yep, sure-fire way to get cache loss every time. My annoyance with all of this is that it is, and should be, simply avoided in the exit code even with the pretended quick exit. Just use the same "No, Windows, you can't shut down just yet" response when Windows sends the shutdown query that a simple notepad application with an unsaved file uses. Likewise for the rapid relog issue, try restarting something like Firefox (the web browser, not a typo) quickly... "sorry, Firefox is still running" - and no doubt doing its housekeeping in the background, having only apparently closed. Instead, the response to it all seems to be "This is intended behaviour and it's a layer 8 problem".* * Edit: For those who aren't network nerds like me, layer 8 means the user is the problem

Sorry for the late reply. To be honest I'm happy going to the beta grid for physics testing. I would go there for most testing anyway, for texturing, optimising LODs and LI etc. I could always just add the physics model as another local mesh, to see it, if I need to. Thank you for your continued improvements of all of this type of stuff... it really makes a big difference to us!

Yep - no triangle messes - life is good. Have another star 🌟 I wouldn't say I enjoy making lower LOD models; it's just part of the process that I see it as essential for a good result. And I do enjoy the results. I've never seen an uploader-generated model of anything remotely complex that I couldn't both improve visually and reduce the LI of. I'm still learning... and have a long way to go. I always start mesh builds at medium and then copy that set to start off the high and low models. A few parts (more complex shapes/lots of faces usually) in that I'll start at the higher detail before copying because I find it easier to then reduce it in medium, than to add topology for the high. Quite often my high LOD will be almost identical to medium but with added bevel modifiers and hardened normals. I know there are automatic tools in Blender to increase/reduce triangle count, but I almost always prefer to do it manually for the sort of things I make. Like you say, it depends on the intended use, distance it's likely to be viewed from, etc.. I test builds at LOD 2 and try to get them so that there's indescernable changeover between the models at that. I shop at that setting too, even though I tend to run at LOD 4 on my land; I like a long view and not all of the stuff is mine with good LODs. The ridiculous number of triangles in some models is an ever-present annoyance, from a number of sellers old and new. As is the instruction from them to set one's LOD at 4 or higher because of their useless lower LODs. I bought a plate of food off the MP; took a chance without a demo - a rare thing but it wasn't too expensive and looked just what I wanted. It was beautiful (stood next to it) but had a ridiculous 70k+ triangles in high LOD, obviously uploader generated lower models and the thing turned to a mess just outside the small room (at LOD 4!). Rather critical review left on that. Conversley, I've bought a lot from What Next (which I discovered recently) and their stuff is a tenth of the triangles and stays looking good until it's so far away I can't see it anyway. I contacted the maker there to say how impressed I was with that and their use of imposters. I find imposters a great tool for some things. I made a hanging cage yesterday, and the lowest LOD is a photo of it. It's white, so can be tinted to match the colour of the bars. If anything, the issue was that the viewer showed the imposter better than I could see the low LOD before the switch. It was tricky getting the imposter not to pop out - did that by adjusting the mask value on the alpha. A bit too high and the viewer didn't bother to draw it at all, too low and the imposter was too 'much'. Got there in the end, lol. Making a functional gantry and winch for it now. Just wish we had PBR already - this would be perfect for it. Everything I make is for me, but I'll often make it with a view to also selling it. Some of those I'll make multiple LOD versions. The cage has two versions, one as above and the second with both the low and lowest as the imposter. That saves another 1.2 LI, and more if someone made it bigger. At LOD setting 2 in the viewer, the second version still works nicely and if it's in a room (even a large dungeon like mine) it's fine. Outdoors, while the lower LI version still works well at LOD 2 (and better than any I looked at to buy, which is why I made it), I prefer the look of the higher LI version. Similarly, a gazebo I made has two LOD versions so people can choose. I made some full perm bits a week ago and they were uploaded in three LOD versions, for optimising in LI and viewability depending on how big they are made. From cm to 20m+. All of them are 1 LI at 2m cube bounding box in size.

I like the Bandit 60 because it's closest to the sort I used to dream of sailing around the (real) world in. Getting the hang of sailing is quite easy in SL - with the benefit of not getting wet and trying to hang on to a line when the wind gets up and the boat heels over 45°. For pirating, I made my own top-sail Bermudan sloop with a much improved Tako-origin script.

I'll just add one thing to balance some of the negativity in my post a few back. I had forgotten about this (which I feel bad about). I spotted an item in a store that I really wanted. I had been looking for something like it for weeks. Turned out it was made by someone else, and was only sold as part of a full and very impressive skybox (the store was using it as the...store). I couldn't really afford to buy the whole thing, so messaged the creator to ask if it was available alone. The upshot was that the creator was so kind as to give me a copy of the item for free (it wasn't sold alone). It made my day, as did just speaking with him. (and it had mod perms, lol). There are some wonderful, kind, talented and just generally good people in SL. Loads of them. Some of them sell stuff no-mod and I still like them.

My wife (and I since I do a lot for her) have that exact same issue, with the exact same non-reply from most sellers. I will say that some time ago, Elven Elder was kind enough to send my wife a version of clothing, modified as above at our request when we had that issue. Very quick it was too. That store has seen a lot more of our money (even though it is no-mod, lol).

@Salt Peppermint What disrespect are you referring to? As to being passive aggressive, I know what that means and I am usually careful to avoid sounding like that, except when I choose to. I do choose my words quite carefully. I find your tone a little passive-aggressive, implying that I am disrespectful and have a problem because I can't have things my way. Arguing for change and highlighting why and where there is a problem (in my opinion) is neither. As for sellers not answering... yes, I've heard it all before. If after over two weeks (which I always allow - I have a RL too) with both NC and IM sent, a seller cannot answer a customer, perhaps they should reconsider running a business or hiring a CSR.

@Salt Peppermint I agree. The problem is that no matter how much many of us give logical and sensible reasons for things to have mod-perms, many sellers simply are not interested. They want to sell things that we cannot touch. That saddens (and annoys) me for all the reasons in this thread. I'll encourage anyone who is responsive to it, and remember niceness and respect are two-way streets. Want some examples of my recent interactions with sellers? Well you're going to get a few anyway, lol. Contacted (very nicely) a seller with a very big store who had a product very incorrectly described (read blatantly wrong). I explained why I was sure. I was hoping the seller might correct the issue, I could even have told them how to (and just stopped short of offering to do so because I didn't want to seem condescending). The response... well, I won't bother contacting the seller again because they made me feel I was in the wrong for doing so. Contacted a fairly new seller regarding a product I had from them, because I could show them how to make significant improvements to it very easily (like it took me 30s to drop the land impact by half). Even sent them a replacement mesh I made (FP, that they could use if they wished) to illustrate some of it. The response there was positive... glad I had done so. And for the record they had already figured out what I told them, just hadn't had chance to update that product. Asked a seller if a fatpack of theirs was mod perms (some of theirs are, some aren't). We spent a lot of money there. No answer. Asked again... then my wife asked (it was for her anyway). No answer. Gave up. Bought an item on the MP that I had seen at an in-world store, so I could leave a good review on it. That was missing some things that the version in the store had, even though they were supposed to be the same product. Contacted the seller... contacted the CS manager... no answer. Eventually gave up and removed my good review. Bought a product that had an error in the texture HUD, from a store with an expensive group membership (which we both have) and where my wife and I have spent a lot of money despite the stuff being no-mod. Messaged the seller (very nicely) and even made a video showing the error. First response was to tell me I didn't know how to use the HUD and that it worked perfectly. I tried again. Second response (which took a few days) was that I should get a redelivery. Third and final try to get through to this person that the HUD was sending the wrong UUID to the clothing finally got through and they sort of grudgingly said they would fix it. Got a demo for a product I would likely have bought, only to find it was missing the demo for the body I wanted. Messaged the CS... nothing. Messaged the maker... nothing. Gave up. I could go on like that if I went back further. Of all of those, the only positive one was a relatively small, new seller. The others are all big names. I'm not saying they are all bad. Some sellers (yes, even of no-mod stuff, lol) have exceptional customer service (they know it keeps customers happy) but it has been my experience that those who insist on selling no-mod tend to have worse manners than those who sell mod-perms stuff. So, yes, it is sad.

I would highly recommend you don't make assumptions. I've been making mesh for SL for over five years. I make and sell BOM/Bento rigged mermaid and merman tails, even for bodies I have no rigging model for (try trial and error rigging!). I make and sell houses, furniture, sailing boats, things for Waterhorse Bento horses, Animesh things, accessories like functional weapons (one is quite unique in what it does), and other assorted paraphernalia. I've made far, far more than that just for myself over the years. Often because no-one made what I wanted, or, unfortunately more often, I found it wanting (poor LOD, ridiculous triangle counts, ripped-off work from some 3D website, mesh errors, not the texture I wanted, and/or... NO MOD!). I should also add sometimes because I could not afford it - usually when I found something actually good. And there *is* a lot of really good stuff and there are really good creators on SL. Don't think I'm just 'down' on creators in general. Quite the opposite, I really value them, they make my SL what it is (with some fill-in from myself)... for those who give a hoot about what they 'make' and sell anyway. All of my work (that I sell) is made by me; mesh and texturing*. I'm no artist, which is why I don't make clothing; I'm never really happy with it when I've tried compared to the good creators in SL and frankly I'm not really interested in making that anyway. I make what I like to make or what I need for myself. I'm thus fully aware of how long it takes to do these things. I know exactly how long it (doesn't) takes to retint something in Photoshop (including template clothing that I've bought for my own use with UV etc. provided). I also have an idea of how long it takes to create completely individual textures for each 'colour option' for those who do it better. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with simply retinting things with a colour multiply layer or some fancy mixing effect that takes two seconds, but I think selling such work all as individual, full priced, NO MOD products is mean and greedy. Sell it a bit dearer than one as a mod-perms fatpack and I'm happy. I'm allowed to think that way! It's why I have those full perm templates for making my own. (I don't sell them). * Full disclosure: on rare occasions I'll use a purchased texture because it's just what I want and to recreate it would be a waste of time (and probably not be as good short of blatant plagiarism which isn't my style.)

@Atomic Infinity I wish I could like that post twice! Exactly how I feel about it, from both maker and consumer views.

Well pardon me for trying to make an analogy to illustrate my point about skill level and the ability of most people to (not) be able to just create their own item because they want a mod version. Still, it gave people something to argue about other than the real point - mod perms, didn't it? 🤣

Of course no-one is making anyone buy stuff. That's not the point. The point is to try to 'educate'* sellers with regards to permissions to make things better! If we didn't have these discussions (because no-one is forcing us to buy no-mod things) we wouldn't get anywhere. *Don't mean that to sound condescending.

Imagine you find a nice, wooden cabinet in a RL shop and want to change the colour to fit in better with your house's décor, and decide to paint it. Or as we did, saw the feet off a cabinet so it would fit into an inset in the wall. Great - easy - shop gets a sale and you get what you want with a little effort. Now imagine that cabinet was sold under license with a 'do not modify' stipulation. Well, first you wouldn't buy it (many others might). Second, you could go home and make your own cabinet instead... really??? While your statement is partially (what about skill, ability and availability of tools?) technically correct, it is unrealistic. As to 'hasn't hurt their sales' - yes it has in many cases. You don't see the people in there who are not buying things. Can't name brands of course but I would buy a lot more from several makers if their clothing (or other items... wings, other add-ons, furniture) could be modified. I messaged one just asking if their fatpack was mod; from experience, some of theirs are, some aren't. No answer... assume the answer is 'no'... don't buy. It hurt their sales. The hair place I mentioned previously has almost entirely lost our custom since they went no-mod, losing perhaps a sale or two a month. A week ago in a well-known store someone wanted to make their hair shiny/sparkly after seeing one of my avatars with such hair (easy to do with the right hair). Couldn't be done because their hair was no-mod. The person was fairly new to SL and hadn't figured out this aspect of mod/no-mod - when they did, they were not impressed! I've seen a few discussions on store groups recently, with people asking how to mod something (the main group in question is a store that sells everything mod!). Again, they were disappointed because the other product they wanted to change was no-mod. No-mod hurts (many) customers and sellers. Mod perms hurts no-one and benefits many. It's thus a stupid situation to be in when no-mod is so prolific.

There are other reasons to mod clothing than texture and materials effects. I have programmed many (mod) clothing items to do things like: Sequenced undressing and dressing controlled by a HUD. One of my wife's favourite outfits has a HUD that 'undresses' her in multiple stages at the press of a few buttons... she uses it a lot when shopping in stores to try on demos without having to mess with the outfits window. Done in conjunction with RLV but much more flexible if the clothing itself can carry a script. Removal of (often problematic, or just not as desired) auto-alpha or other scripts. Detect sitting down and either remove a garment not suitable (like a cloak) or switch the texture on it to one that alphas out the bottom when told to. A long, split dress that had its own AO with different walks to prevent the legs clipping. It turned off Firestorm's AO when the dress was attached and used its own, turning firestorm's back on when removed.

@EliseAnne85(and anyone else) I have no issue at all with people reselling 'stock' mesh that they've textured. I'm not bad at mesh making... good at geometric stuff, less so at 'arty' mesh and rigging but I manage when I have to. Texturing takes me many times longer (your 20 hours would likely take me a week, if I could even do it) than making the mesh because I have the artistic talent of a stone. Again, I get there well enough with copious photoshopping and layering to be content with what I've made. My point is that yes, we all have our own strengths and play to them. No issue. I think the thrust of this thread is more that the sellers are worried about being 'caught out' for that, than most buyers actually care. The only time I've bothered is when I happen to know a particular mesh is bad and so I'll want to avoid that. But then, so should the resellers. Conversely I've actively sought out products based on a good stock mesh. Yeah, fully retexturing a mesh isn't something most people could do (I actually design my UVs to make them easier for people to do so - but that brings limitations too). Thus (re)sellers who actually make different textures have nothing to worry about from making their products mod. Those who just tint it and sell it as a different product (and I have seen lots!) perhaps more so, lol. The bottom line is that many of us do feel very strongly about the lack of mod perms, and it most certainly limits what we will buy and who from. Yet, there is vanishingly little actual risk to the vast majority of sellers from giving their products mod perms. I for one would spend a lot more! No-mod can only hurt sellers. Mod perms in general can only help them. Edit to add another thought: A 'creator' locking something down with no-mod is preventing others from exercising their own creative desires, even if that is as simple as slightly tinting a tie to better match a shirt. For me and a lot of us, creativity is part of SL that we enjoy (for me it's most of it) so taking that away is a significant detriment to us, themselves and potentially to SL as a whole if we don't buy stuff and maybe even leave SL. Every little helps... or hurts.

I think it's often ignorance, compounded with arrogance. Ignorance about why something should be no-mod. Arrogance which prevents them from seeing a different perspective to the one they've chosen/been told. Plus or minus insecurity/paranoia/hiding something. Not always though. I know creators whom I would certainly not describe as either ignorant or arrogant, but who choose to sell their products no-mod. That's their choice and while I still disagree with it, I respect it and at least in those cases it is a considered decision, not just a knee-jerk reaction. I still don't buy much from them. I've never seen full perm mesh sold with a stipulation that it be re-sold as no-mod specifically. NC/Trans, or C/No-Trans obiously yes, but not no-mod. I find no-mod and the excuses for it quite insulting really from most sellers; or would, if I let other people bother me. As it is it tells me about the seller (and what they think of me as a customer!) and strongly influences my desicion about giving them my money. Being told I can't have something with mod perms because I might then steal it in some way (yes we know it makes no difference) is effectively calling me a thief and punishing me for my, or someone else's, potential behaviour. Or that I might damage it and need customer support, or it is rigged so I can't mod it anyway. I'm not stupid any more than I'm a thief. I've never liked 'group punishment', at school, the workplace or in law. Yes sellers can sell any way the T&C allows. That doesn't justify anything. Most stuff has no reason to be no-mod. Some, yes, but not most. A final note to sellers... if you are so worried about people retexturing your single items to save paying you again for a re-tinted version (that took you two seconds to do) at least make the fatpack mod perms. Some do that and it very much encourages us to buy that fatpack even if we don't want all the options. Edit to add: The argument regarding being inspected to see who made the thing... I am not an advert for the seller. If you want me to be an advert, pay me to use your no-mod advertisements. Otherwise, I bought it, it's mine, I'll do what I want with it (or more likely not to all that if it's no-mod).

You got me all disappointed after seeing your warning, then watching the video of her just taking off her shoes. As to the OP... Cute! I can just imagine lying on a floatie in a pool, dangling my legs and wiggling my feet and toes in the water. I wish! I can see a merekat market for it.

@Qie Niangao Thank you for that list - also @Cinos Field. They'll get more of my and my wife's custom. That's what we need... lists of the sensible sellers. We would both buy a lot more if things were modifyable. We've stopped buying a certain hair brand since they stopped having mod perms some time ago. Shame - it's really good hair. We used to buy a lot and we've often tinted it a little manually, or made other adjustments (materials etc) to get the most out of our purchases. No longer.