ChinRey

I wasn't actually talking about virtual worlds but virtual reality in general. "Game engines" like Unity and Unreal Engine and several others are so far ahead of SL when it comes to graphics quality it's not even funny. These engines are not only used for games either, they're direct competitors to SL in many fields. Second Life's only remaining advantage is that it has a ready made potential audience. I think that is what keeps it alive and will keep it alive in the future. Of course, with the grid system it is also possible to create larger continuous simulated realities in SL but that is never - if ever - taken advantage of. There may not be much need for it either. The largest simulator you can make with a modern game engine is nominally the size of 256 SL sims, effectively the equivalent of about 500. Only the largest mainland continent groups are bigger than that and they are so fractured that although you can walk from one place to another there, they hardly coutn as continous simulations.

Syo Emerald wrote: No. He never was. From the first moment Second Life existed, he was never going to be the only one. That's true. Second Life was never for the "ordinary people", that was just a marketing hype. I'm not quite as new to Second Life as my current avatars and I do remember the early days even though I didn't stay for long back then. There is a very important difference though. Back in the first years Second Life was something new and exciting and it was cutting edge technology with lots of appeal to the "computer geeks". It isn't today. Everybody else have caught up and raced past.

Syo Emerald wrote: As for this thread, its exactly that. He has problems with loading/rezzing... You mean you think he's the only one?

Theresa Tennyson wrote: All of Gary's problems are concerned with mesh bodies loading slowly. Yes but then the discussion sidetracked into the gpu issue and that's what I replied to. Initial loading is of course mainly the main processor's job so a better graphics processor won't help much there. Theresa Tennyson wrote: The loading process of Second Life is one of the things we have to live with to allow the widest range of assets But the question still is, who is willing to live with it? No matter how you explain it, the fact is, Second Life does not perform as well as it should or as well as it promises. That's what people see when they arrive here and that's what matters. Asset loading time doesn't explain the excessive cpu load anyway. Theresa Tennyson wrote:p>if someone considers themself One of the Best Mesh Makers in Second Life but can't convince other game developers that they are, they'll never have their work seen in any other game. I met an "other game developer" a few weeks ago. Somebody who's working full time making models for games and movies and thought a line of mesh clothes in Second Life could be a nice way to expand his business. The very first thing he asked me was why are mesh clothes in Second Life so high poly? Theresa Tennyson wrote: ... they'll never have their work seen in any other game. Second Life gives them the ability to have their work seen (and judged, but that's another point.) Yes but let's face it, that is interesting to those people and to their friends. Anybody else couldn't care less. This is another sidetrack but since you mention it, I absolutely agree that one of the great advantages of Second Life is that it's open for hobby creators. Building with mesh is far more complicated and more frustrating than building with prims, partly because mesh is more complicated in itself but also because of the poor documentation and implementation in Second Life. That hurts the hobbyists more than the professionals. Prim building is a far more even playing field where technical skills and experience play a lesser role. I think we're loosing the hobby builder aspect of Second Life and that is very sad. Once upon a time all newcomers were taught how to build, today they are taught how to shop. This paradigm shift from user as creator to user as consumer has gone all but unnoticed yet it may be the most profound change in SL ever.

Monti Messmer wrote: Hi, if you bought this of the marketplace, you can leave a review and flag it as false advertised. Unfortunately it's unlikely that will make much difference for a gacha resale listing. Generally with gacha items, once the item is sold, the lsiting is gone so there's nothing there to review or flag. So I'm afraid that unless the seller eventually answers (you should allow for a week or two before you give up all hope) there's absolutely nothing you can do.

Syo Emerald wrote: She is just pointing out, that part of Garys problems might come from an ageing computer. But of course, since Gary and you might need a new graphic card, nobody should have nice things. No, it's more than that, Syo. It's a question who Second Life is for. It doesn't have much appeal to the regular gaming and graphics crowd with high performance game computers because, let's face it, the graphics here are rubbish by today's standards. It does still have appeal to more "casual" users of virtual realities but generally not enough that it's worth a three digit number of dollars in extra hardware. What that flippant "buy a better computer" answer ultimately means is that Second Life is only for the established users. And not only that, it's only for the established users who are still interested enough to keep spending significant amounts of money on hardware upgrades just for the sake of Second Life. Second Life can and probably will survive for many years just on the momentum of the past but unless the hardware requirements can be lowered so it becomes accessible to more people, it doesn't really have a future. It's not as if the hardware requirements are for "nice things" either. Ninety percent of the gpu power used in SL is wasted on poor software and worse content. Have you ever been to other more modern and better made virtual realities? Have you noticed how much better the graphics are and how much lower the hardware requirements are? I keep mentioning the Unigine Benchmarks here because they really are what the titles say, benchmarks for VR performance. 256 sims worth of simulation with a graphics quality way beyond our wildest dreams of what can be achieved in SL and they still have noticeably lower gpu and cpu load than a typical SL scene.

Lindal Kidd wrote: Gary, maybe you just need to update your graphics card. Me too! Ummm, if I understand you right, you're offering to pay for it? I take donations for my new gpu in Linden dollars so no transfer problems.

Rhonda Huntress wrote: More often I see topless avatars waiting for their clothes to res. I'm not complaining, tho. Oh yes. I wonder what the people with those heavy fitmesh avis would say if they knew how many others actually see them naked in SL.

Aethelwine wrote: With mesh I rarely have a render weight higher than 30,000, back before mesh my render weight with flexi hair and flexi dresses would often be above 300,000. Those numbers are lying. The render weight formula is heavily biased towards giving fitted mesh lower calculated than actual render weight. Even so, it seems the main rendering problem with fitted mesh isn't gpu but rather cpu related and that won't show up in the render cost as such of course.

GaryPreston wrote: I'm interested to know if there is anyone else out there who feels we would enjoy the Second Life experience far more if there were to be a parallel alternative which admitted no mesh avatars, or even no mesh. I don't think it's mesh as such. Mesh is the standard building material for most virtual environments and has been so for a long time. It's the horrendously poor implementation of mesh in Second Life that is the issue. SL's rendering code for mesh is just a crude and clumsy hack of the sculpt rendering code which again is a crude and clumsy hack of the prim rendering code. Such a bodged job is bound to cause problems of course and a poor LoD system, inadequate resource accounting and lack of proper documentation don't exactly improve the matter.

To sum up the posts Rolig referred to, the theoretical maximum is 65,536 vertices but you will run into serious problems long before you reach that number. How many vertices you should have depends on what environment the item is in but the fewer the better. As a general rule of thumb you want to keep the total number of vertices in a scene (that is for all items and avatars rendered at the same time on the same computer screen) below 1,500,000 and definitely not higher than 2,500,000.

Madelaine McMasters wrote: Again, those "Professors of anything" have been around forever, I had several of them in college. So that doesn't explain this new "Death of Expertise". The flood of information is a very obvious explanation. I think I'll go back to my first two posts: "The way I would put it is everybody are experts in something but nobody are experts in everything." and: "Communicating and persuading both require their own skill sets and knowing and understanding a lot about a certain topic doesn't necessarily mean you are good at explaining it to others. On the other side, some people are so good at arguing they can easily persuade you to believe the sky is green." Who are the ones most likely to be heard in this choir of discord? It's not the people who are experts on the topic in question, it's the ones who are experts in communicating their view and arguing their case.

Angelica Stoneshield wrote: Hello Sir Alwin it is posibble and allowed to create a new store using alt using same paypal with main account? in this case. my main account selling avatar components stuff and new alt selling a building like homes, skybox etc. but still use the same brand. same inworld store. and same paypal.. thats all allowed? and not againts the tos? thank you.. I'm not Alwin but I hope I'm allowed answer anyway. Yes, you can use the same PayPal account for several alts and each of these alts can have their own MP store. That's how I do it myself.

As Adamburp said, most sims there have one in the northeast corner (or is it the northwest?) and they're usually marked with a rusty old buoy.

Klytyna wrote: Look at the Talking Head crowds of minor proffessors from 3rd rate backwater cow colleges, who get 10 min slots on cheap documentaries for US Discovery/History. Not just on those channels, all of the internet too. It's not that long ago we had fun on this forum butchering some really shoddy quasi research done by some professors at a backwater university named Harvard.

Theresa Tennyson wrote: THIS video isn't evidence of any given Monkee's expertise as an instrumentalist, though, because they didn't play the instruments on the audio track. That's true, they don't even try very hard to mime convincingly. But to be fair, the Monkees did know how to play their songs, they did it on stage after all. Using the Wrecking Crew rather than the band on the label in studio was common ptactice in the LA recording industry back then. Everybody were doing it and I think one of the reasons the Monkees were the one who had to take the heat was that they were the band that refused to keep quiet about it. Theresa Tennyson wrote: My big problem with the article was that the writer seemed to be using the word "expert" as "someone who is in a position where you'd expect them to have expertise" instead of "someone with expertise." Wem Gott ein Amt gibt, dem gibt er auch Verstand One of the most infamous factoids in history. Has it ever been translated into English?

Madelaine McMasters wrote: I agree. ... Unfortunately, for many people to believe you are an expert, you must agree with them. You're a true expert, Madelaine. But seriously, I think any easy answer here is almost by definition wrong. It's actually a very complex topic.

Theresa Tennyson wrote: It seems to me that one of the marks of a true expert is having so much knowledge about a topic that they can state their position so clearly and provide so much evidence to support that it will be obvious that they're correct to an unbiased observer. If they can do that they shouldn't need to expect deference based only on their position as an "expert." You faith in humanity's ability to make rational judgements is truly admirable. Sadly, it's not very well supported by facts. Communicating and persuading both require their own skill sets and knowing and understanding a lot about a certain topic doesn't necessarily mean you are good at explaining it to others. On the other side, some people are so good at arguing they can easily persuade you to believe the sky is green.

I've just posted a more detailed explanation to the skyrocketting land impact problem in another thread. Maybe not a good idea to repost it here so here's the link: https://community.secondlife.com/t5/Building-and-Texturing-Forum/Single-SL-Primitives-Blowing-up-their-land-impact/m-p/3104547/highlight/false#M16626

It's a well known problem. I once wrote a notecard with a brief and easy (sort'a) explanation. If anybody wants a copy of the notecards, just contact me in-wolrd. But here's the whole texts: (Yes, I know I'm talking about linksets here but the problem can also occur with single prims if they use any "modern" features - that is any feature that was introduced after the new land impact calculation method.) LAND IMPACT MYSTERY SOLVED (OPQ Guide Cards to Second Life: Builder) v. 1.1, 2014-04-21 by Rey (ChinRey Resident) Just a very short explanation to one of the problems most builders run into every now and then: Why does the land impact (or "LI" or "prim count") suddenly raise or drop when objects are linked together? Index: The History of LI The Jumping LI Problem The Solutions About OPQ Copyright Notice ------- 1. The History of LI Originally the land impact of a linkset (that is a set of objects linked together) was calculated very simply: 1 LI for each prim. That didn't work in the long run though. LI is supposed to indicate how much load an object puts on the servers and the network and different types of prims can be very different there. The problem became even more critical with the introduction of mesh - there simply is no sensible way to handle meshes with that old system. The only solution was to introduce a brand new model for calculating LI, based on three of the four "weights" an object has. This modern calculation is far from exact but it gives a much closer estimate of the actual load the objects causes. There was still a problem though: Quite a few older builds would break under that new calculation method, that is their LI would increase beyond the limit allowed. The solution to that was to use both calculation methods in parallel: anything that could have been built before the new LI formula was introduced still has its LI calculated the old way, anything that includes features that didn't exist back then, is calculated the new way. Quite confusing and hardly an ideal solution but there really was no alternative. --- 2. The Jumping LI Problem One problem this dual model causes, is that the LI of a linkset can suddenly jump up or down when objects are added or modified. It only takes a single object with a single modern feature to switch the whole linkset between the two formulas and the difference in LI can be huge. Usually the modern formula gives the best (that is lowest) result but there are exceptions and it's not that uncommon for LI to increase by several hundreds - or even thousands - if the modern LI formula is triggered. --- 3. The Solutions a) To trigger modern LI calculation This is what you usually want to do and the solution is simple: just introduce one modern feature. Usually what you do is "convex" the linkset, that is change the Physics Shape Type to convex hull. One minor warning though, some prims may act a little bit funny when convexed. If that is a problem, just keep the physics shape type of those prims as "Prim". You only need to convex a single prim in the linkset to trigger modern LI calculation. b) To fix LI jumps The reason why the old method of LI calculation is kept is that some older builds have very high actual LI - in extreme cases several hundred or even thousand times the number of prims they contain. There aren't that many of them but it can be a rather nasty surprise if the one you're working on is one and you do something that triggers modern LI calculation. The simplest and most obvious solution is of course to revert the build back to its original state. But maybe you'd want to fix the problem instead? As far as I know, huge LI jumps are always caused by physics weight. (In theory it can also be caused by download weight but I can't think of many realistic scenarios where that will actually happen.) So the first thing we should try do is to reduce the physics weight. No, the very first thing we should do is take a backup copy of the linkset into our inventory, *then* we take a look at the physics weight! An object in SL can have three different physics shape types: Prim: more or less the same as the shape you see. Convex Hull: A simple rectangular or triangular box around the object. Can give a much lower physical weight than prim. None: No physical shape at all. More or less the same as phantom - except it works for individual objects within a linkset. Removes physical weight completely. The physics shape type determines the object's interaction with an avatar. It's the shape you crash into or walk upon. Usually it has no other function than that. To minimize physics weight, keep all objects that actually need a detailed physics shape (the ones with walkable surfaces, hollow prims you're supposed to walk inside or through etc.) as "Prim", change all objects you're not supposed to interact physically with to "none" and change everything else to "Convex Hull". Smaller LI jumps can be caused by download weight or physics weight. If it's physics weight, you can use the method above but usually there's no simple way to reduce download weight so if that is the problem, the only easy solution is to revert the build. That is, unless you're desperately short on LI, you can just leave it as it is. After all, the two different calculation methods don't affect the actual lag/load the object generates - the modern LI calculation is just a more accurate estimate of it. So unless you're running out of LI, the jump doesn't really have any practical significance. c) When the LI count doesn't revert Sometimes when you revert a linkset to use the old formula, the LI figure you get in the Build window stays high. It might be that there is some minor detail you missed when reverting the build but most likely it's just that the data isn't updated. If so, you can unlink and relink to force another recalculation but there's no real need to worry. The LI count you read in the Build window is calculated by your viewer and not the server and it shouldn't take long for it to be updated anyway. --- 4. About OPQ http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Coniston/128/128/3001 Marketplace stores: OPQ Builders' Supplies: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/167633 Bel's Scripts: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/165683 OPQ Gardens and Landscaping: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/167694 OPQ Interior: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/167689 Chin Rey Houses: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/154697 OPQ Estates: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/167695 --- 5. Copyright Notice This notecard was written 25.03.2014 and updated 12.04.2015 by Rey (ChinRey Resident). Please feel free to distribute it any way you like as long as you don't change the text or charge any money for it.

Very interesting article, thank you Solaria. The way I would put it is everybody are experts in something but nobody are experts in everything.

I have to disagree a little bit with Rolig here. A locked door keeps the vast majority of unwanted visitors out. It's only if you have trouble with persistent griefers you really need more than that. If you own the land - and you do if it's a Linden Home - you can get rid of them manually, just right-click on the avatar and select "Eject" or "Ban". A security orb can only do automatically what you can do manually as the landowner. They can be quite a hassle and, as Rolig said, if set up wrong you may unknowingly end up griefing your neighbors but it is an option if you're worried about people dropping in and looking at your furniture while you are away. I wouldn't normally recommend ban lines but Linden Homes are a bit special there. A Linden Home covers the entire parcel it's on so ban lines will only stop people trying to enter your house, not casual visitors stumbling across you place and besides, there are ahrdly any casual visitors to a Linden Home sim anyway. (You do not need both a security orb and ban lines btw. Security orbs were developed because of the many flaws of the ban lines system and those flaws aren't really relevant for a Linden Home.) While you're fiddling with the "About Land" settings, there are a few others you should check too: Under the "Options" tab, make sure the check boxes for allowing everybody to run scripts, build and enter objects are unchecked. (This is still for a Linden Home, remember. On a mainland parcel you really should allow everybody to run scripts and enter objects but maybe not build.) Still under the "Options" tab, uncheck the "Avatars on other parcels can see and hear..." option. That means nobody on the outside can see you through the windows or by camming in. They can still se the itnerior but not any avatars inside. Under the "Objects" tab, set autoreturn to 1-5 minutes or something like that. Do not under any circumstance keep the autoreturn at 0 minutes. STray objects may sometimes end up in your house even if object entry and buiding is switched off but when that happens, the autoreturn will always take care of the problem, usually before you even notice.

arton Rotaru wrote: Looks pretty normal to me. The terrain physics mesh is much more simplyfied/optimized than the visual terrain, for performance reasons. I'm, not absolutley convinced about the performance gain for two reasons. One is that in the picture I posted first, the deviation was actually created by three superfluous triangles right in the middle of a fairly smooth slope. The other reason is that since the navmesh also sometimes goes quite a bit below the visual ground, the sim also needs a more detailed ground physics model in addition to it. Here is one of my alts, Jazz, standing on the visual ground, "hovering" 0.36 m above the navmesh: In other words, the navmesh isn't a replacement for the detailed ground physics shape but an addition to it. The server has to keep track of both, using whichever happens to have the highest elevation at any given spot as the walking surface. I also find it hard to believe that something like this is an efficient physics model: Maybe I should mention that the reson the first navmesh peak I mentioned was so noticeable was that it was right underneath a prim platform. It was hard not to notice that at one specific spot elevation height was like this: while at the rest of the surface it was: Of course, since the ground was covered by a platform at this spot, the easy solution was to simply lower the ground a little bit more. But it took a while to figure out what caused the problem.

I'm not sure how clear this picture is: but it shows the physics shape of the ground in a sim with updated navmesh and a thin red prim between the physics and the actual ground at that spot. 0.7 m difference, is that normal?

If you followed Lindy's description and can't get it to work, there are two possibilities: One is that you are trying to use a regular web address for sound streaming. That doesn't work, media streams are a bti different from regular web sites. Try some of the stations in the list Karen Michelle suggested. Even if you don't find one you like there, at least you can see if it works at all. The other possibility is that somebody else has a Media-on-a-Prim player in their house transmitting across the whole sim. If that is the case, the only solution si to try to locate it and block it.