Mesh GOOD - Marketplace BAD

[ralph Alderton]

Mesh is good. Mesh has the potential to transform SL but the Marketplace is bad for mesh.

Creating top quality mesh content is a non trivial task, which means it takes time.

The problem with the marketplace is that it is crowded with 0L$/10L$/99L$ products dominating the important first pages of any search keyword. This is especially bad for mesh creators because of the extended time it takes to create beautiful mesh content.

If it takes several days to create a mesh product, it can not be sold for 10L$. It needs to be sold for at least 400L$ -500L$ to reflect the time and various skills involved and invested.

But if you list a product at 400L$/500L$ who will find it ? Customers will find a SUPERABUNDANCE of pap and never see your mesh products. They won't even know it's available so choked is the marketplace  

Mesh artists can not get a proper ROI ( return on investment) with the current search algorithms that enable 0L$/10L$ products to dominate.

0L$/10L$ products degrade the value of virtual goods and the hard won skills of any good content creator.

As a mesh artists can you justify spending several days making top quality mesh products for SL if there will be no proper return on investment ?

If mesh is going to have any chance of transforming Secondlife for the better search needs to change. NO PRODUCT PRICED UNDER 100L$ should come anywhere near the top 20 pages when searching RELEVANT. Products under 100L$ should only come up in the first pages when one specifically searches for cheapest

 

The skinny:

The extended time it takes to create beautiful mesh content is ruined by the loss of visibility in a price dumped, choked marketplace.

Because there's no proper return on invested time, top quality mesh content will not be made and SL will not be transformed by mesh

 

 

[aniyasopretty]

IM wondering should I download second life

[ralph Alderton]

yes most definitely you should. It's outstanding, but there are some difficulties - growing pains

[Sae Luan]

Mesh or not, this is a problem.  An item doesn't have to be mesh for it to have taken a lot of TLC to create.  I thought when LL took over SLX they said they were going to keep freebies from coming up in normal searches.  I guess I was wrong.  Honestly, I'm so tired of people listing items for $20L and under.  There's no reason for this.  Those people are ruining the marketplace for everyone.  Releasing a freebie is fine, even I have released a freebie or two, but these days, it's ridiculous!

[DanielRavenNest Noe]

@ Aniya - If your PC meets the system requirements, there is no harm in trying it, the download is free.  If you don't like it after giving it a try, then just un-install.

@ Ralph - your complaint has nothing to do with mesh specifically.  Any quality SL item takes time to make.  What you want is to change the functionality of the web-based Marketplace.  For that, a JIRA issue in the WEB category or attending the correct user group meeting with the Linden staff is the right place.  Complaining to us here does nothing.

[ralph Alderton]

@Daniel, this mesh forum is a great place to address this issue as Sae pointed out, the TLC necessary to create a top quality product is being undermined by the SUPERABUNDANCE of 10L$ pap.

Mesh artists more than any other should be deeply concerned about the abundance of 10L$ content at the marketplace as it directly opposes and steals the visibility of content that takes considerable time effort and skill to create

Daniel there is little point in us spending our valuable time creating the best quality mesh content we can, if nobody is going to see it or buy it because of a choked marketplace 

The equation is something like - if people don't see or find your mesh content, they can't buy it, they don't know it exists, so you as a mesh artists don't make more products because there's no point

Things are seriously out of balance in the marketplace especially to the detriment of mesh content or any top notch content that takes considerable time and care to create

 

[Sae Luan]

I wonder if LL intends to create a section of the marketplace specifically for mesh items.  That would at least help with this problem as it relates to mesh.

[Ciaran Laval]

Jesus Christ change the record Ralph, it's not Mesh products you have a problem with, you hate competition, just deal with it.

[Madeliefste Oh]

I do agree that the marketplace is not good for mesh, but for very different reasons.

- The marketplace makes no difference between the number of prims an object contains and the prim count of an object. To inform customers properly about what they are buying, both options should be available.
For example I have a mesh object that exists of two linked prims, the prim count of the object is 1 prim, but I cannot inform my customers properly about that, unless I describe it in my listing.

- The prim count of mesh depends of the size of an object. So mesh has a flexible prim count. So my 2mesh1prim object can have a prim count of for example 5 when someone want to rezz a real huge version of it. But the marketplace has no option to tell customers to what size the stated prim count is related. To inform customers properly about what they are buying, this should be the case.
For example someone can offer a bonzai size tree and tell the customer it counts 5 prims. But on the picture you cannot see the tree is bonzai size, it might as well be a 15 meters high tree. The customer doesn't find out about the size of the object, unless this information is made available to him on the marketplace.

- There is no mesh category for building components available.

 

[l33tkit]

I agree at some point that with the way the marketplace runs, it could be a problem. But low priced items are what most residents are looking for.... I haven't been here long, but the market's needs and wants do not change just because the game is now digital.

There's also the case where they sell for cheap because they have that sort of skill. There are plenty of creators who can complete their work in no time -- therefore they have no need to compensate time with sales. That's the problem you face with the marketplace.

Since mesh is considered revolutionary to SL, it'll take time to gain popularity just as everything revolutionary before it has.

My suggestion: deal with it. Time is rewarded with time and then some. Keep doing what you do because there aren't a lot of Mesh masters out there. And if you need to advertise more with the marketplace in such a state, then do what must be done.

[Sae Luan]

For me personally, I don't hate competition, but I don't understand why people price so low.  Of course people don't want to pay HIGH prices for things.  Back when sculpties first came out, I had some of the lowest prices on full permission sculpt work, but it was still enough to make sense for the time I spent to create it.  The people pricing SO low...I just don't understand..I mean does it just take them a couple of minutes or do they just not care?

SL is my RL income, and SL alone.  My husband works, but we need the extra money to support our baby and such and not be broke all the time.  For this reason, it just really makes me wince when I see such high quality work being practically given away.  Yes, I could go out and get a RL job, but I want to be able to be home with my 5 month old.  

 

I prefer competition because it makes me strive to do better work, so for me they are two different issues.

[Medhue Simoni]

If any1 remembers, Brooke asked us if we thought mesh needed any special things for the Marketplace. Many of us responded with pretty much all the valid concerns. Why was nothing at all done, besides labeling, which does not even link to a category? This really should have been brought up at the mesh user group meeting tho, not on the marketplace forums, where few mesh creators visit. And, it should have been brought up months before release.

To those condeming Ralph for bring this up or calling him a record, I say he is not shouting loud enough. When the marketplace was privately owned and called Xstreet, you'd never see a free product at the top of search. It was privately owned and the owner was smart enough to understand that he did not make any commission on free stuff. Usually, it was the highest priced items at the top, and probably why Xstreet got all of us merchants to use it. Why LL doesn't get this, being a corporation, I'm clueless.

Well, let me theorize for a minute, lol. Maybe, LL thought that all their problems was because we all charged too much, and if everything was free they would sell more land. How's that working out for you LL?

[Ciaran Laval]

I've read this time and time again from Ralph, in the past there have been other suggestions such as content creators having to pay hundreds of dollars a year for a licence to sell goods.

Some people won't buy the cheaper items because they feel they are inferior quality. That's the market. If you don't want to get into a race to the bottom then don't join in, higher priced products do sell. Price your products as you best see fit.

 

[Ciaran Laval]

There are a hell of a lot more merchants on the marketplace than there ever were on XStreet and on Xstreet it wasn't hard to sort your listings by price.

[Sae Luan]

You're right, it's just hard to see the people do that. IDK, my sales are ok either way. It's just that with this being my main income other than the husband's, of course these things are going to worry me, but personally, I do too much of that worrying thing on everything... Not just in SL! Lmao.

[Medhue Simoni]

---

Ciaran Laval wrote:

There are a hell of a lot more merchants on the marketplace than there ever were on XStreet

---

Show me the figures you are basing that assumption on, or that is just your opinion. I'm sure there might be a few more overall, but "hell of a lot" is way beyond what I see, especially in the markets that I watch. Actually, I see less in some markets.

[Eata Kitty]

What you are describing here is a problem standard to all content and not just mesh. There are no unit costs or even listing fees so a product can be given away if wanted without making a loss.

A developer program and some level of listing fees would counter marketplace "spam" but have some negative implications.

[Sae Luan]

I thought they had planned to start charging per listing.. What happened with that?

[DanielRavenNest Noe]

---

Sae Luan wrote:

I thought they had planned to start charging per listing.. What happened with that?

---

I have no clue what happened to that idea.  Personally, I would be fine with a per-store fee of L$ 30 per week, the same as for showing a land parcel in search.  People can still give stuff away if they want to, but even a small fee would clean up redundant Marketplace listings and put it on a more even basis with in-world shops.

[Haye Abbott]

Many people in all sorts of content have that content as a sideline and can therefore afford to give things away for promotional purposes.

 

Also, in Second Life, I'm sure we'll be seeing lots of people putting up cheap videogame ripped meshes.

[Apple Pumpkins]

Yes unfortunately this issue exists in a few other game communities I have made content for in the past. The free stuff gets chucked up first and the other stuff (more expensive but of course better quality) doesn't even get a look in. And never assume that a downloader knows quality when they see it. This is a huge mistake I made. They will always go for the cheapest stuff.

[Shakira Dubrovna]

Ralph does make a valid point and is not just restricted to mesh but to all builders and sculpters, competition is good for business as it fuels everyone to build better and better. The main issue with secondlife market place is the same out in the real world, there are too many hobby set who just do it for something to do or the anti establishment types who are just interested in driving prices down, but mostly its a simple lack of understanding on the true value of things that people make, the time spent and the care taken. If secondlife don't seriously tackle this issue then it will have very serious implications for everyone. we dont want to see customers being ripped off but as it stands its the content creators that are the ones being taken for a ride!

[Nacy Nightfire]

Who's to determine how many man hours should go into a single item.  If you,with your expert skills, you can knock off  an item in 20 minutes and I spend a week agonizing over every detail...how should that be priced.  Who gets to decide?

A large attraction SL has for people, especially when getting started or outfitting an alt, is the free stuff.  Treasure hunts and freebie chairs are also one of the most popular items as is joining groups to get free stuff.  SL wouldn't be sl without these things.

Creating is also one of the most popular things that everyone gets to do.  Personally  I'm not interested in holding back from creating things and giving my stuff away for free just because some folks decide this ever-evolving and therefore unstable environment is the only option they have to pitch their economic  tent.  Its up to them to roll with the punches, not for me to hold back on enjoying SL the way that is best for me.

I understand many people use SL to supplement their incomes, however there are no guarantees in life. People often make a good income from what turns out to be a passing fad.  Folks always need to be considering other options  if they are dependent this money.  There is no (nor should there be) artificial means to hold back other SL players from giving away things for free it they choose to do so. If everyone has a fruit tree in their yard, then obviously that limits the market for the grocery store and the grocer has to expand his/her   offerings or change the business plan.  No one should be restricted from being generous with others or be forced to cut down their trees.

As in RL, competition is not just between you and your rival creator, its also between you and what people can make for themselves or obtain for free.  If  you sell things that are so easy to manufacture that others just do the same and give these things away, then that's a poor business model.  Find something else to sell or improve your product so well that people won't be able to make it and distribute it for free, don't expect to restrict the rights of other people make and gift stuff for the benefit of the entire community.

[Dolores Rossini]

I think Mesh has much more time to catch on, many established regular SL  residents dislike the new standard SL 2 and 3 layout and so use older or alternative viewers. Being lazy , people who downloaded version 3 will find  the settings to be poor regarding appearance of sculpts and mesh and may not be so technically minded or mindfull to look into changing settings. Obviously none of the older viewers support mesh , which is a reason I think it will take more time to establish Mesh than it did re Sculpts  . If you have a product people are searching for I'm certain it will be found .

[Zeven2011]

If it's any consolation, I have become a big fan of mesh, and I often take the time to search the Marketplace specifically for mesh-based content.  I may be in the minority, but I suspect there are more of me out there who consider quality more than price to be a primary determining factor.  I currently manage two avatars in world, one being Zeven, representative of me and my creative persona, and the second being the lovely (in my eyes at least) Minuet.  I intend for Minuet to be the subject of much of my virtual 'photography' with the hopes of blurring the boundaries between real and virtual imagery in regards, at least, to emotional and artistic impact.  Mesh hair and clothing mean less postwork for me to create a more 'real' representation of a living person and environment - a more natural representation of movement.  For what it is worth, I will also appropriately credit the creators of any items Minuet is wearing in any work I present to an audience (primarily Flickr at the moment).  This, hopefully, will provide positive attention to your endeavors, and perhaps even inspire some additional sales of your products.

Apologies for my verbosity.  Hopefully I have provided some encouragement to those of you who have taken the time and effort to create these and future products.  You have my thanks at the very least.

Zeven