Is Lindenlab choosing a doomed path for SL ? Tell us if the EEP and PBR introduction changed the way you play SL

[Omegaslayer]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

I think this is the only one in your list that surprised me, I know people who experienced big issues when WL first came out (although I didn't use it myself).  And, "ALM" isn't in your list as a separate thing (I assume it could be).

it didn't really affect me that much, i barely noticed it happened as with other updates so if i missed any i probably didn't notice much of a shift. I could always turn a setting off i suppose but i enjoyed windlights and eep, i really liked having my own sky setting. 

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Omegaslayer said:

right ok to all the people bashing people getting annoyed about PBR lets put it into perspective with my experience, when i updated to mesh sl ran the same as before, when sl updated there windlight second life ran the same as before, when sl introduced materials it ran the same as before because we could turn them off, when sl introduced bento it ran the same as before, when sl updated the skeleton it ran the same as before, when sl introduced fitted mesh it ran the same as before, when sl updated to pbr is the moment it stopped running the same as before. This is the issue people are having, we adapted before because sl didn't really change, but this is changing the way it runs and right now it's not a good fit for a lot of users.

This is a good point that none of the other changes made any real difference whereas this does and to me there is no upgrade that I see. The PBR novelty wore off after an hour and I don't care whether I see it or don't because I am interested in the "story," not so much the pretty view

[Nagachief Darkstone]

1 minute ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Rendering is dealt with by the GPU. MY CPU does not even sneeze.

All APIs require the CPU to send commands to the GPU, which incur a CPU cycle cost. OpenGL is particularly heavy on CPU cycles per call. Vulkan and DX12 can batch those calls to use less CPU cycles, but they still use CPU cycles.

In short: You didn't answer my question. Show me the renderer is multi-threaded.

[Omegaslayer]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Are you using the same computer from back when mesh was introduced?  When Windlights was introduced?  

no but the computer i was using when they updated was not a high tier computer, actually the computer i have now is better than those and it was second hand but new to me fairly recently. The computer i used when mesh was introduced etc died not that long ago and it lasted through most of those updates, i had been using it from 2010 to fairly recently and i never noticed much of a change in my experience. 

[Arielle Popstar]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Are you using the same computer from back when mesh was introduced?  When Windlights was introduced?  

Not the point, it is whether the update to the new thing made a difference to whatever machine was being used. For me none of those others had any real affect on the playability of the computer vs this one which does.

[Omegaslayer]

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

This is a good point that none of the other changes made any real difference whereas this does and to me there is no upgrade that I see. The PBR novelty wore off after an hour and I don't care whether I see it or don't because I am interested in the "story," not so much the pretty view

exactly, this is changing how sl runs, this isn't a mere update to the current technology this is changing everything.

[Vivienne Schell]

1 minute ago, Nagachief Darkstone said:

All APIs require the CPU to send commands to the GPU, which incur a CPU cycle cost. OpenGL is particularly heavy on CPU cycles per call. Vulkan and DX12 can batch those calls to use less CPU cycles, but they still use CPU cycles.

In short: You didn't answer my question. Show me the renderer is multi-threaded.

https://www.quora.com/How-badly-will-my-Intel-i7-8700-CPU-bottleneck-an-RTX-3080-I-have-an-intel-i7-8700-CPU-with-an-ASUS-TUF-H310-Gaming-motherboard-and-intend-to-use-a-1440p-144hz-G-Sync-monitor-with-the-RTX-3080-Should-I-get-a-new-CPU

Eat that. Try tenthousand other links which deal with 8th/9th/10th generation Intel CPU´s and newer GPU´s. The CPU simply does not matter. Not even regarding SL which uses comparibly more CPU capacity than average games.

[BriannaLovey]

1 minute ago, Omegaslayer said:

exactly, this is changing how sl runs, this isn't a mere update to the current technology this is changing everything.

Sometimes when nobody listens, the only option is to push back yourself. If you need any help using the [henri please don't drop a brick on my head] viewer, you can contact me inworld if you see me online 😄

[Vivienne Schell]

19 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

.....

Well, didn´t you ask people why they got high end computers? For running them on low settings in SL?

[Omegaslayer]

2 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

Sometimes when nobody listens, the only option is to push back yourself. If you need any help using the [henri please don't drop a brick on my head] viewer, you can contact me inworld if you see me online 😄

exactly, and i will let you know, i am tempted to try it for sure, i just can't stand when people don't listen or act like your stupid for not having a high end gaming pc, i'd love to be able to afford one but rl sucks and im not rolling in the cash XD

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Vivienne Schell said:

21 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

.....

Well, didn´t you ask people why they got high end computers? For running them on low settings in SL?

I think the point of my "speechless" reply is:  If you WERE complaining about performance, YET were running on Ultra with "high settings", the most people would not have very much sympathy for you. 🙂

 

[Dorientje Woller]

13 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I am curious if these are within the "automatically set", "recommended settings", or if you are raising your settings to levels above what the viewer tries to recommend for your setup?

My settings ... don't see any reason why SL, in every viewer, is recommending me lower settings as my set-up is capable off.

@Vivienne Schell: end of discussion with you, because you fail to understand that your set-up is requiring more power for the results you want ... more power = more heat. 

[Vivienne Schell]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think the point of my "speechless" reply is:  If you WERE complaining about performance, YET were running on Ultra with "high settings", the most people would not have very much sympathy for you. 🙂

 

Pure envy.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

10 minutes ago, Nagachief Darkstone said:

In short: You didn't answer my question. Show me the renderer is multi-threaded.

https://www.quora.com/How-badly-will-my-Intel-i7-8700-CPU-bottleneck-an-RTX-3080-I-have-an-intel-i7-8700-CPU-with-an-ASUS-TUF-H310-Gaming-motherboard-and-intend-to-use-a-1440p-144hz-G-Sync-monitor-with-the-RTX-3080-Should-I-get-a-new-CPU

Eat that. Try tenthousand other links which deal with 8th/9th/10th generation Intel CPU´s and newer GPU´s. The CPU simply does not matter. Not even regarding SL which uses comparibly more CPU capacity than average games.

Hmm!  Yet, I could swear that I recall multiple threads where LL and viewer experts say, "no, the viewer is not multi-threaded"! I just have bad memory, and probably missed / forgot reading threads that say, "Now the viewer is multi-threaded!"

 

[Modulated]

I'm curious, for those with higher end stuff, what is the setting below set to for you in debug? As a long time AMD gpu user, I have had to set that to true , way before PBR arrived. AMD gpus have been 4.6 opengl compliant for many many many years, and forcing it to use the current one has always produced better results in my use, even when I have used Nvidia, setting it true resulted in better performance if the card supported it.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

22 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I am curious if these are within the "automatically set", "recommended settings", or if you are raising your settings to levels above what the viewer tries to recommend for your setup?

My settings ... don't see any reason why SL, in every viewer, is recommending me lower settings as my set-up is capable off.

..because the viewers, when recommending settings, are taking into account some aspect of Second Life and your setup that you are not aware of. That's the reason. 🙂

 

[Nagachief Darkstone]

Just now, Vivienne Schell said:

https://www.quora.com/How-badly-will-my-Intel-i7-8700-CPU-bottleneck-an-RTX-3080-I-have-an-intel-i7-8700-CPU-with-an-ASUS-TUF-H310-Gaming-motherboard-and-intend-to-use-a-1440p-144hz-G-Sync-monitor-with-the-RTX-3080-Should-I-get-a-new-CPU

Eat that. Try tenthousand other links which deal with 8th/9th/10th generation Intel CPU´s and newer GPU´s. The CPU simply does not matter. Not even regarding SL which uses comparibly more CPU capacity than average games.

Each texture is a texture bind call. Each one of those alpha slices on an avatar is a render call. Every unique face on an object is a render call. Anytime the LOD changes on an object invokes a rather expensive render call. Each shadowmap that touches an object invokes another render call for those touched objects. UI is multiple render calls to draw the elements.

The reason Second Life has so many performance problems is because there are a staggering amount of render calls being sent from the CPU to the GPU, each one of those calls means the CPU has to spend some time processing it before it reaches the GPU. The rendering thread is a single thread and is the main thread of the viewer. If the core that thread is being processed on is maxxed out, it cannot send data any faster to the GPU. It doesn't matter how powerful your GPU is if your CPU can't send that data faster.

Games are optimized within an inch of their lives to not send a flood of render calls, that's why they run better than Second Life. And some bleeding edge games are multi threaded on rendering via Vulkan/DX12. Second Life still uses a single OpenGL thread for all of it's rendering.

[Omegaslayer]

2 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

My settings ... don't see any reason why SL, in every viewer, is recommending me lower settings as my set-up is capable off.

@Vivienne Schell: end of discussion with you, because you fail to understand that your set-up is requiring more power for the results you want ... more power = more heat. 

because most people don't have high end pc's so as a safety precaution it sets it as lower settings to start with or recommends them, logging into a viewer on a computer that can't crack it with stupidly high settings is a remedy for disaster. Second life doesn't know what computer your using, it will recommend default settings that most people might use. 

[Vivienne Schell]

2 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

My settings ... don't see any reason why SL, in every viewer, is recommending me lower settings as my set-up is capable off.

@Vivienne Schell: end of discussion with you, because you fail to understand that your set-up is requiring more power for the results you want ... more power = more heat. 

40 percent more power required, compared to the pre PBR viewers, is a ridiculous price for what you get.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think the point of my "speechless" reply is:  If you WERE complaining about performance, YET were running on Ultra with "high settings", the most people would not have very much sympathy for you. 🙂

 

Pure envy.

Actually no - unless you're being sarcastic.  It's like someone complaining that their Rolls or Lamborghini is expensive to operate.  That's not envy, it's just silly.

Just because you or someone else has a "high end" computer, doesn't mean that you also won't be impacted by changes.  And just because someone doesn't have empathy / sympathy for you, does not mean they are envious of you.

[BriannaLovey]

5 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

My settings ... don't see any reason why SL, in every viewer, is recommending me lower settings as my set-up is capable off.

@Vivienne Schell: end of discussion with you, because you fail to understand that your set-up is requiring more power for the results you want ... more power = more heat. 

Viewers are likely being more conservative than they need to be in order to compensate for factors like other processes you are running, which many end users don't understand will hinder the viewer's performance.

[Vivienne Schell]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Actually no - unless you're being sarcastic.  It's like someone complaining that their Rolls or Lamborghini is expensive to operate.  That's not envy, it's just silly.

Just because you or someone else has a "high end" computer, doesn't mean that you also won't be impacted by changes.  And just because someone doesn't have empathy / sympathy for you, does not mean they are envious of you.

I even could run that Sansar mess. Unfortunately only high end hardware could run it fluently. The result is known. I do not wanna wake up in a virtual wasteland which excludes anyone who cannot or does not want to run a high end machine. Also, i strongöy suspect that someone who pays like 2000 and more dollars on a gamer machine expects that an app will run with acceptable fps, fluently and without toasting the machine on at least high settings. Always and reliably.

[Katherine Heartsong]

2 hours ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Stating facts is not whining. And fact is that the new engine results in a dramatic performance loss.

Nope.

Not for me*

Same frame rate, same draw distances, same settings just one under Ultra high with my 3070 and 4UHD wide screen monitor running full screen. I turned off mirrors and changed the Exposure setting to 0.6, that's all. Even with mirrors on I saw only a 6.5% drop in FPS in Firestorm. That's not dramatic.

You keep saying "dramatic performance drop" like it's a fact across the board. It isn't. It's you and some others, and the same number of us here on the forums (granted, we're a limited cross section of hard core SLers) are not seeing this so-called dramatic performance loss. That's the full fact ... some are having problems, others aren't.

Stop generalizing, please?

*And trust me, I'm as paranoid about performance loss as they come because as an Apple user since my first Apple II, I lack much PC tech savvy to fix broken things on my PC gaming machine.

[Vivienne Schell]

4 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

Viewers are likely being more conservative than they need to be in order to compensate for factors like other processes you are running, which many end users don't understand will hinder the viewer's performance.

Sure, the users are stupid. Yay!

[Katherine Heartsong]

1 hour ago, Vivienne Schell said:

To make you a little bit more happy: Even people running high end machines cannot get more than 15--20  fps in a somewhat "built" or crowded place anymore. Even they must turn down the settings to a point where it makes no sense to run gamer hardware anymore.

40fps in Hotwife with 30+ avatars. 40 in Exhale, 40 at Love and 30+ at Muddys and Fogbound.

60–70+ on my own highly decorated 8192 sim with a 160 draw distance.

What are you talking about?

Edited June 24 by Katherine Heartsong