Lindens Statements from Governance Meeting

[Coffee Pancake]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

There is no law against virtual depictions of children being involved in violent combat.  Equating combat to the ban on AP is kind of pointless because the legality of AP is at the root of the whole discussion.

Would I want to see cartoon children getting blown up?  Not especially but there's nothing illegal about it.

Who cares what the real world law says .. the SL Law says "Nope."

[Love Zhaoying]

14 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

Bringing the topic back to gender and non binary avatars, what modesty layers do you think the following three avatars would need under the policy, particularly the middle one?

Also If you disagree with the current policy then state what you think they should be as well. 

If you can't see the modesty layers anyway (due to being covered by the clothing shown), I don't see a point in it. Except, to know "it's there" because of a rule.

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Coffee Pancake said:

Who cares what the real world law says .. the SL Law says "Nope."

Yes, I know that.  It's just not for the same reasons.  Personally, I don't see a.reason aside from.the visual making some.people uncomfortable.  Except for those who really dislike children?

[brodiac90]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

If you can't see the modesty layers anyway (due to being covered by the clothing shown), I don't see a point in it. Except, to know "it's there" because of a rule.

LL would know what modesty layer you were wearing and the non binary issue / gender issues was broguht up a lot at the Governance meeting. 

Edited May 11 by brodiac90

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Would I want to see cartoon children getting blown up?  Not especially but there's nothing illegal about it.

Not what you were hinting at, but: It may be possibly "unlawful" to sell a "M for Mature" video game depicting exploding children, to a child under the required age, without consent of a parent. (Games got ratings.)

 

[Coffee Pancake]

We really need a revision of the ratings for G,M and A.

[Blush Bravin]

14 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

Bringing the topic back to gender and non binary avatars, what modesty layers do you think the following three avatars would need under the policy, particularly the middle one?

Also If you disagree with the current policy then state what you think they should be as well. 

If these were my avatars I would choose the following.

First: just underpants, preferably boxers .. not a fan of tighty whities 

Second and third:

I much prefer a cami to a bra for avatars this age.

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Not what you were hinting at, but: It may be possibly "unlawful" to sell a "M for Mature" video game depicting exploding children, to a child under the required age, without consent of a parent. (Games got ratings.)

 

Anyone under 18 in RL is only allowed on General.  No child avatar on Moderate should be under 18.  This is why I mentioned it not being against law for.cartoon depictions of children to be in combat.  Distasteful to some, maybe.

[Arwyn Quandry]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Yes, I know that.  It's just not for the same reasons.  Personally, I don't see a.reason aside from.the visual making some.people uncomfortable.  Except for those who really dislike children?

Oh, come on. There's plenty of media that features child characters being injured, using weapons, dying. Children bring a unique emotional impact to storytelling and there's plenty of reasons to use a child character in a dangerous or violent scenario.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, brodiac90 said:

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

If you can't see the modesty layers anyway (due to being covered by the clothing shown), I don't see a point in it. Except, to know "it's there" because of a rule.

LL would know what modesty layer you were wearing. 

Ok, and:

18 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

Bringing the topic back to gender and non binary avatars, what modesty layers do you think the following three avatars would need under the policy, particularly the middle one?

Responding to the bolded part: I see you are asking specifically for each / the middle avatar, oops! I thought you mean in general, sorry. 

The point of my original answer (explained poorly as usual) was, if the modesty layer is UNDER the clothing shown (as I understand it would be), then "it doesn't matter" - it can be there, and nobody will see it (but as you say, LL will know it's there).

If you are asking about having the modesty layer OVER the clothing shown, or on the tiny areas of skin that may be showing, it seems a bit pointless to me. 🙂I would have assumed your question is facetious possibly..? 

 

[brodiac90]

1 minute ago, Blush Bravin said:

If these were my avatars I would choose the following.

First: just underpants, preferably boxers .. not a fan of tighty whities 

Second and third:

I much prefer a cami to a bra for avatars this age.

That's interesting, what gender (if any) do you think the middle avatar is? Or could you not tell?

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

We really need a revision of the ratings for G,M and A.

MV for Moderate Violent?  MA for Moderate including some nudity allowed, M for plain Moderate with no nudity or violence?   Just spit balling but it makes sense.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Arwyn Quandry said:

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Yes, I know that.  It's just not for the same reasons.  Personally, I don't see a.reason aside from.the visual making some.people uncomfortable.  Except for those who really dislike children?

Oh, come on. There's plenty of media that features child characters being injured, using weapons, dying. Children bring a unique emotional impact to storytelling and there's plenty of reasons to use a child character in a dangerous or violent scenario.

I'm just confused, as it appeared you are agreeing with Rowan. 

DUMB LION! * punches self in face *

[brodiac90]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Ok, and:

Responding to the bolded part: I see you are asking specifically for each / the middle avatar, oops! I thought you mean in general, sorry. 

The point of my original answer (explained poorly as usual) was, if the modesty layer is UNDER the clothing shown (as I understand it would be), then "it doesn't matter" - it can be there, and nobody will see it (but as you say, LL will know it's there).

If you are asking about having the modesty layer OVER the clothing shown, or on the tiny areas of skin that may be showing, it seems a bit pointless to me. 🙂I would have assumed your question is facetious possibly..? 

 

Not facetious, it's a genuine point of enquiry I want to discuss since it was brought up so much at the meeting. What modesty layers should non binary prebuescent child avatars wear? I know we won't see them, but I'm thinking from a complaince stand point - LL will be able to tell. 

[Blush Bravin]

2 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

That's interesting, what gender (if any) do you think the middle avatar is? Or could you not tell?

I really wasn't sure. So to be on the safe side, picked a nice cami.

 

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Arwyn Quandry said:

Oh, come on. There's plenty of media that features child characters being injured, using weapons, dying. Children bring a unique emotional impact to storytelling and there's plenty of reasons to use a child character in a dangerous or violent scenario.

That's my point.  SL has the rule about violence being on Adult and no children on Adult.  Why can't some violent combat be on Moderate so child avatars can participate?  They're adults in RL.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

5 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

We really need a revision of the ratings for G,M and A.

MV for Moderate Violent?  MA for Moderate including some nudity allowed, M for plain Moderate with no nudity or violence?   Just spit balling but it makes sense.

Possibly a more specific "drill-down" for the types of activities allowed in each WITH non-adults.

Nudity: never ok

Violence: OK except on "G". Could use the "MPA" ratings system or video games rating system as a guide.

Movies: G, PG-13, PG, R

Games: E, T, M, etc.

[brodiac90]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

That's my point.  SL has the rule about violence being on Adult and no children on Adult.  Why can't some violent combat be on Moderate so child avatars can participate?  They're adults in RL.

I think it can? It just can't be extreme or graphic like you would see on an adult sim. Also depends on what sim owners allow. May be allowed by TOS but doesn't necessarily mean it's allowed in practice. It's not really my area of expertise as I don't get involved with combat. 

Edited May 11 by brodiac90

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, brodiac90 said:

Not facetious, it's a genuine point of enquiry I want to discuss since it was brought up so much at the meeting. What modesty layers should non binary prebuescent child avatars wear? I know we won't see them, but I'm thinking from a complaince stand point - LL will be able to tell. 

Ok, then..the general information I have heard is about "the gender the child is presenting as".

Even "non-binary" people sometimes present as one gender or the other. (Many non-binary people are "gender fluid" and change their presentation depending on the day, their mood, any reason which is none of our business, etc.)

I assume in THIS case, you are implying (I have to ask) that the middle child is non-binary AND NOT intending to present as either gender.  Can you clarify that point? It would be helpful. 🙂

 

[brodiac90]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Ok, then..the general information I have heard is about "the gender the child is presenting as".

Even "non-binary" people sometimes present as one gender or the other. (Many non-binary people are "gender fluid" and change their presentation depending on the day, their mood, any reason which is none of our business, etc.)

I assume in THIS case, you are implying (I have to ask) that the middle child is non-binary AND NOT intending to present as either gender.  Can you clarify that point? It would be helpful. 🙂

 

Yes, hence the gender neutral colours and unisex style swimwear. 

 

Edited May 11 by brodiac90

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, brodiac90 said:

Yes, hence the gender neutral colours and unisex style swimwear. 

Right, so - There are two answers that I can easily see.

1) The "Society expectation" answer: 

If a person is genuinely non-binary, and not presenting as either gender, then I would expect "Society" expects them to cover parts that you would expect to be covered on the gender requiring the "most parts covered".  (This only works because the standard rule is "girls cover more than boys", not "one wears tops and the other wears pants".)

2) The "Individuality" answer:

Let the individual choose.

To address the original question - again (as I tried to earlier) the "modesty layer", unless I missed it, won't be visible for any of the 3 examples you gave.  It would be under the clothing. Only LL would know.

 

[brodiac90]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Right, so - There are two answers that I can easily see.

1) The "Society expectation" answer: 

If a person is genuinely non-binary, and not presenting as either gender, then I would expect "Society" expects them to cover parts that you would expect to be covered on the gender requiring the "most parts covered".  (This only works because the standard rule is "girls cover more than boys", not "one wears tops and the other wears pants".)

2) The "Individuality" answer:

Let the individual choose.

To address the original question - again (as I tried to earlier) the "modesty layer", unless I missed it, won't be visible for any of the 3 examples you gave.  It would be under the clothing. Only LL would know.

 

Ty for the contribution, I'm just throwing out these little thought experimtents so that LL can read them and consider them. 

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

Yes, hence the gender neutral colours and unisex style swimwear. 

No offense, but being told this does not help and I would not have used it in any criteria, having already been told they are non-binary. 

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

Ty for the contribution, I'm just throwing out these little thought experimtents so that LL can read them and consider them. 

DARN YOUR TRICK QUESTIONS!11!!! 🙂

 

[brodiac90]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

DARN YOUR TRICK QUESTIONS!11!!! 🙂

 

sticks out tongue 😛  and runs.