Raffle boards for charitable orgs OK?

[Sasun Steinbeck]

Policy reference: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Policy_Regarding_Wagering_in_Second_Life

I would like to bring to market a raffle board, primarily for people doing fundraisers. I see a zillion raffle boards for sale in the marketplace, they are clearly not banned there, at least. But I'd like to provide some guidance to customers on what might get them into trouble with the raffle board. These are not promotional (free) raffle boards - you pay money, random chance determines one or more winners of the prize. The prize is determined by the raffle board owner and could be anything.

Seems obvious that offering $L as the prize puts the raffle board squarely into "gambling" category and should never be done.

The policy says that if the object in question "in any way risks Linden dollars based on whether an event may or may not occur" then it is considered gambling.

One could argue that with a charitable fundraiser, there is no "risk" of losing $L, since it should be common sense that your donation is 100% guaranteed to be gone from your account and not coming back and you know there is no cash prize. Where's the "risk" here?

 

They also say "If the 'payout' involves objects that are more akin to novelty objects that cannot readily be converted into Linden dollars, real-world currency or value, then that activity will likely be permitted."

 

So... if you are not giving out cash, you could argue that selling your prize (if if it's even worth anything and is Xfer OK) in a store/marketplace somewhere (and hoping that someone even buys it) is FAR from being "readily converted". It's not like you can just go cash in your random prize object anywhere.

 

I realize that in the end it would require someone to abuse report your raffle board and a Linden would have to say yes or no in specific cases. So anything I would say would be in the form of opinions and guidelines, or better yet as my own policy on allowed use of the raffle board.

 

What do you think?

[Zalificent Corvinus]

I've seen raffles in world that were legal.

You didn't have to pay, they were free to join for store group members, or people who had a place pick for the store, etc., and the prize was say a clothing item, no-transfer, so, no bet involved, no prize convertible to RL funds. Not gambling or wagering.

 

Charity Fundraiser raffles...

That would appear to be gambling/wagering with a 100% chance of losing money. That doesn't make it less illegal than a wager where you only have a 50% chance of losing.

 

If it costs the entrants ANYTHING to join, it's illegal, basically. If the prize is Transferable, and can thus be resold for money, it's illegal.

 

 

[elleevelyn]

language is important when providing these kinds of devices

call it a raffle board into which users pay money, and it will get AR'ed even when people don't necessarily understand the distinction you trying to make

call it a charity board. the language is then "please give to the charity" That the charity may then give a randomly selected non-transferable item (to all  users) as a token of appreciation is legitimate

when the board gives a randomly-selected transferable item then is a gacha  - which is not permitted. Not permitted as when transferable the item can be sold to another person for L$ either on Marketplace or inworld gacha store

Edited January 20 by elleevelyn
mor clear

[LittleMe Jewell]

If I remember correctly, at one of the large yearly events, we could buy raffle tickets for prizes.  Each purchased ticket was for a specific prize, nothing random, but since there was only one prize, there was definitely a chance to not get anything for your money.  I don't remember this those still existing last year at events. Nor do I remember for sure which event, but I'm thinking it was the yearly American Cancer benefit event.

[Sasun Steinbeck]

I designed the RFL raffle boards. This raffle board is essentially the same thing but will be sold as a commercial product. So obviously they are allowed for RFL but I wasn't involved in any discussions with LL about how to make them OK by the rules or whether RFL was given some kind of special exception - I have no idea. Those raffle boards give out a token item with every ticket purchase. But there's still a main prize to win at the end of the raffle. But the language everywhere is clear... the money is going to a legit charity.

On 1/19/2024 at 5:34 PM, elleevelyn said:

call it a charity board. the language is then "please give to the charity" That the charity may then give a randomly selected non-transferable item (to all  users) as a token of appreciation is legitimate

This is exactly the direction I want to head with these. I'm just wondering where the line is between what is not acceptable and what is. How does the language of a charitable donation for a ticket vs. non-charitable make it legal? Or the fact that you get something for every ticket purchase AND have a chance to win a prize?

One of the existing commercial raffle boards gives you the first ticket free. This, by their instructions, makes it legal. I just don't see how that gets around the rules, myself. Doesn't the purchase of the 2nd ticket mean it's gambling?

[elleevelyn]

3 hours ago, Sasun Steinbeck said:

I'm just wondering where the line is between what is not acceptable and what is. How does the language of a charitable donation for a ticket vs. non-charitable make it legal? Or the fact that you get something for every ticket purchase AND have a chance to win a prize?

only Linden can answer this fully

however

it depends on what question Linden are asked to give an answer too

like if we had a paid supporters group for our charity , can we give a free L$ prize to only one member of our group ?

where Linden may struggle is with the language used to solicit the donation. Like a big sign: Donate to our charity and  go in the draw to win L$100,000. Linden probably say umm! nah.If only because they don't want Support Linden getting overrun by ARs going OMG! gambling !!

so suppose it went like this

donate to the board, get a token of appreciation (like teddy bear or something). Also get a dialog which says: "Would you like to join our charity donor supporters group for free. Benefits include regular charity activity updates, periodic gift products from our sponsors, participation in our annual L$100,000 cash giveaway, invites to inworld charity soirees and other cool stuff. [Yes] [No]

click Yes and go on the supporters (subscribers) list. click No to decline going on the list. Ignore the dialog and the answer is No. People can opt-out of becoming a member of the charity supporters group by clicking [No], they just happy to make a donation and done

strictly speaking there is a language misdirection here. The offer to join the donor supporters group is conditional on making a donation. However, it can't be otherwise. Donors are donors, non-donors are not donors. And the offer to be on the donor supporters list can be declined

the comparative to giving gifts/benefits i(ncluding L$ to selected group members as part of a larger benefit bundle )  is inworld store groups with paid memberships who do this

how Linden might view all this I dunno, only Linden can answer

[Sasun Steinbeck]

Thank you this is all good food for thought! In the end it all comes down to how the tools are actually being used in the end and if anyone finds that useage objectionable enough to file an AR.

[Paul Hexem]

Why would anyone even give to charity in SL? After transaction fees and typical skimming done by most of those organizations, anyone that actually needs the money would be getting a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of what you actually donated.

Give someone in need 50 cents directly, they'll make more than if you donate $100 through SL.

[Kathlen Onyx]

3 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Why would anyone even give to charity in SL? After transaction fees and typical skimming done by most of those organizations, anyone that actually needs the money would be getting a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of what you actually donated.

Give someone in need 50 cents directly, they'll make more than if you donate $100 through SL.

Plus it's hard to keep track of if you claim it on your taxes as a charity contribution.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 1/19/2024 at 6:53 PM, Sasun Steinbeck said:

Policy reference: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Policy_Regarding_Wagering_in_Second_Life

I would like to bring to market a raffle board, primarily for people doing fundraisers. I see a zillion raffle boards for sale in the marketplace, they are clearly not banned there, at least. But I'd like to provide some guidance to customers on what might get them into trouble with the raffle board. These are not promotional (free) raffle boards - you pay money, random chance determines one or more winners of the prize. The prize is determined by the raffle board owner and could be anything.

Seems obvious that offering $L as the prize puts the raffle board squarely into "gambling" category and should never be done.

The policy says that if the object in question "in any way risks Linden dollars based on whether an event may or may not occur" then it is considered gambling.

One could argue that with a charitable fundraiser, there is no "risk" of losing $L, since it should be common sense that your donation is 100% guaranteed to be gone from your account and not coming back and you know there is no cash prize. Where's the "risk" here?

 

They also say "If the 'payout' involves objects that are more akin to novelty objects that cannot readily be converted into Linden dollars, real-world currency or value, then that activity will likely be permitted."

 

So... if you are not giving out cash, you could argue that selling your prize (if if it's even worth anything and is Xfer OK) in a store/marketplace somewhere (and hoping that someone even buys it) is FAR from being "readily converted". It's not like you can just go cash in your random prize object anywhere.

 

I realize that in the end it would require someone to abuse report your raffle board and a Linden would have to say yes or no in specific cases. So anything I would say would be in the form of opinions and guidelines, or better yet as my own policy on allowed use of the raffle board.

 

What do you think?

I think if it is just a non-paid raffle it won't be a problem, if there are such things. But the raffle boards I have and have seen on the MP have a payment mechanism. And what's the point if you don't have a payment, if you are trying to raise money for charity?

I used to have land raffles and gatcha raffles as "something to do" and charged like $1 or $5 for the tickets merely as a slight offset. I think it will still be seen as gambling by the Lindens.

And here's another point of information from my years of doing this: this is not how you raise money. It's just not. A direct donation mechanism for an explicit cause simply raises more cash in my view. For example for relief in Ukraine, Palestine, Haiti, etc. I have both a sign with a script containing a URL that leads people to a RL Internet site to donate in their currency directly -- really the most cost-effective way -- AND I also take Lindens in a donation jar and display how close I am to the goal where I can then myself donate US $25, let's say, to Doctors Without Borders, made up of dozens of small Lindens contributions. I just think that works better. But there's the cost of cashing out those Lindens and the accountability question in general and I just don't think it's efficient to use SL for fund-raising. I do anyway as a long and slow proposition -- it can take months to reach each US $25 check that I'd be sending in RL.

The ACS Relay for Life has been honed for 15+ years at events like Fantasy Faire, which is managed by skilled people with RL non-profit management experience, who have worked for years to refine the vendors, the donation kiosks, auctions, accountability etc. needed for this effort. But many other casual things in SL are dubious. 

Is it fair that I get to write off the donation on my taxes, and all those people who donated 100L don't? OF COURSE it is because I absorbed the cost of tiering the view of the donation kiosks, the cashout fees, and the maintenance of the venues and records. They could always give directly to RL institutions.

Edited January 24 by Prokofy Neva