PBR in Second Life!!! How to make a Metalic-Roughness!!

[Medhue Simoni]

Things have been progressing with PBR materials in SL, and I decided to make this video to help people learn about it. We also are getting a Material Asset, we can trade or sell. 

 

[animats]

Ooh, shiny thing!

PBR is useful, but don't overdo it. Try to keep the clearcoat metallic effects down to a subtle level for anything that's not a car.

 

[OptimoMaximo]

On 11/20/2022 at 5:56 PM, animats said:

clearcoat metallic effects

Clearcoat and metallic are two different things, Clearcoat specifically isn't part of the base PBR shader, can be found in Arnold, vray and similar offline renderers as well as in Unreal Engine's. Clearcoat is a dielectric (non-metallic) roughness layer, used especially (if not almost exclusively) in automotive renders.

The reality is that a completely smoothly polished and shiny metal really is rare to find, that's true. Also, some metal grunge makes a very cool effect, also on object that shouldn't really be like that (think of a warrior's sword: should be maintained correctly and show no grunginess that may lead to metal weaknesses, but a grungy sword is just much cooler to look at,  in comparison to a perfectly polished one)

[animats]

3 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Clearcoat and metallic are two different things, Clearcoat specifically isn't part of the base PBR shader, can be found in Arnold, vray and similar offline renderers as well as in Unreal Engine's. Clearcoat is a dielectric (non-metallic) roughness layer, used especially (if not almost exclusively) in automotive renders.

The reality is that a completely smoothly polished and shiny metal really is rare to find, that's true. Also, some metal grunge makes a very cool effect, also on object that shouldn't really be like that (think of a warrior's sword: should be maintained correctly and show no grunginess that may lead to metal weaknesses, but a grungy sword is just much cooler to look at,  in comparison to a perfectly polished one)

I know they're different. The point I'm making is that the first thing people seem to do with good materials is make shiny things. Not subtle things.

[OptimoMaximo]

Just now, animats said:

I know they're different. The point I'm making is that the first thing people seem to do with good materials is make shiny things. Not subtle things.

Oh alright... Well, I don't think it could be avoided. Let them play with the materials until they will realize someone else is doing a better job with that, and start making progress from there.

[Charlotte Bartlett]

I had a play today on beta.

I was looking to create defaults for substance painter for optimal workflow.

I don’t like the implementation in SL with the material creation, it’s clunky and adds more steps to workflow that could be far more efficient.   I can see it being manageable for small items or clothing but a full house unless we can map with upload it’s going to be painful. 
 

 

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

7 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

I had a play today on beta.

I was looking to create defaults for substance painter for optimal workflow.

I don’t like the implementation in SL with the material creation, it’s clunky and adds more steps to workflow that could be far more efficient.   I can see it being manageable for small items or clothing but a full house unless we can map with upload it’s going to be painful. 
 

 

I've yet to test the new PBR features but my understanding is that there will eventually be support for uploading materials in .gltf format.

Hopefully in future LL will support uploading mesh in .gltf format as well so we can simply export all the models and materials in a single file, upload it and have SL extract the necessary components and compile them into mesh and material assets automatically.

Of course it's also possible that LL will just skip that part and instead hand creators a bunch of hoops to jump through in order to create content like they have done countless times before... but perhaps this time will be different! 😏

[arton Rotaru]

Importing meshes in the glTF format is indeed planned, but will be a separate project. This time it's just glTF material import.

Just dropping this here as a FYI for Substance 3D Painter users.

Creating a new project (Remove channels under Texture Set Settings like Emissive, Opacity if you don't need them.):

To export simply choose glTF PBR Metal Roughness as the Output template:

Importing glTF Materials. Currently we have to choose one material at a time from the list of materials in the .glTF file.
The material asset will be dragged and dropped onto the objects face directly from your inventory once uploaded.

It's also possible to load glTF materials as local materials: This time it will load all materials at once.
(Note: This feature is broken in the current GLTF Project viewer 7.0.0.576331)

 

Dropping just a single asset on the models face(s) is far more convenient than setting up legacy materials actually.

Edited November 28, 2022 by arton Rotaru

[Charlotte Bartlett]

11 hours ago, arton Rotaru said:

Importing meshes in the glTF format is indeed planned, but will be a separate project. This time it's just glTF material import.

Just dropping this here as a FYI for Substance 3D Painter users.

Creating a new project (Remove channels under Texture Set Settings like Emissive, Opacity if you don't need them.):

To export simply choose glTF PBR Metal Roughness as the Output template:

Importing glTF Materials. Currently we have to choose one material at a time from the list of materials in the .glTF file.
The material asset will be dragged and dropped onto the objects face directly from your inventory once uploaded.

It's also possible to load glTF materials as local materials: This time it will load all materials at once.
(Note: This feature is broken in the current GLTF Project viewer 7.0.0.576331)

 

Dropping just a single asset on the models face(s) is far more convenient than setting up legacy materials actually.

Thanks on the SP part, I had played with that yesterday.  Results are fairly ok, but still finding the values slightly off on the rendering in SL in comparison.

My personal issue is still that material creation in world.  When we do larger assets with upload in the diffuse channel - then there may be some additional materials (normals) on focused areas.  I will be shocked I mean surprised if LL actually pipeline it so we can import efficiently versus having to do manual material assignment in world.   

What really needs to happen is the GitF material can be assigned to a mesh for upload via dae (well FBX would be even better but I digress).
As with many of these improvement projects, the user cases never seem to be public to understand how they are designing it and lack of documentation for thereafter to ensure best practice and optimisation.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Charlotte Bartlett
typo

[Charlotte Bartlett]

Example of my test today - albeit just after I took the SL screenshot Beta died on me, and when I reloaded the materials were all grey'd out and wouldn't reload/allow me to edit.
White background is SL without elements like the changing the strength on the occlusionRoughnessMetallic map in the SL editor.
Detailed background is Substance Painter.   I was going to compare to non materials format with just diffuse.  These are already baked with a high poly model over the low poly in Substance Painter for the creases etc.

Not optimised mesh or materials (e.g. I would want to test the secondary maps at 64 versus 512 sizing to see what it delivers as things like leather can be a bit blurry in those elements).
The "leather" cushion at the back, isn't good enough using the SL default PBR material settings, it loses some of the dynamic elements so I'll fiddle with that to test my own options.

Thought useful to show though in the interim.
 

[arton Rotaru]

Yeah, Painter is HDRI lighting, SL doesn't have a HDR render pipe. Also, Painter doesn't have point lights, Sun/Moon, but SL has. So you still want to tweak materials in-world via the (currently broken) local materials feature.

Mesh upload with PBR materials assigned will have to wait until the glTF mesh upload is implemented I guess. I don't think this will be enabled with DAE.

The materials not sticking after editing a material is another annoying Bug in the current project viewer. Well, it's an Alpha release, so things will get better with time.

[Charlotte Bartlett]

2 hours ago, arton Rotaru said:

Yeah, Painter is HDRI lighting, SL doesn't have a HDR render pipe. Also, Painter doesn't have point lights, Sun/Moon, but SL has. So you still want to tweak materials in-world via the (currently broken) local materials feature.

Mesh upload with PBR materials assigned will have to wait until the glTF mesh upload is implemented I guess. I don't think this will be enabled with DAE.

The materials not sticking after editing a material is another annoying Bug in the current project viewer. Well, it's an Alpha release, so things will get better with time.

And that’s the key for me as I can “fake” if non “shiny” with a decent 2d download auto assigned in Dae to the diffuse channel.   
 

Still fun to play with.   I can see using it for a few key things like a repeating item (like shiny trim or perhaps even for some interesting glass).    
 

I am going to play with things like floorboards and bricks next to see what variances I can do. 
 

[Medhue Simoni]

20 hours ago, arton Rotaru said:

Yeah, Painter is HDRI lighting, SL doesn't have a HDR render pipe. Also, Painter doesn't have point lights, Sun/Moon, but SL has. So you still want to tweak materials in-world via the (currently broken) local materials feature.

Mesh upload with PBR materials assigned will have to wait until the glTF mesh upload is implemented I guess. I don't think this will be enabled with DAE.

The materials not sticking after editing a material is another annoying Bug in the current project viewer. Well, it's an Alpha release, so things will get better with time.

Thanks for filling us in! I only just jumped on, and noticed you could create a material, lol. The material uploader is very cool.

[OptimoMaximo]

On 11/28/2022 at 7:46 PM, Charlotte Bartlett said:

Thanks on the SP part, I had played with that yesterday.  Results are fairly ok, but still finding the values slightly off on the rendering in SL in comparison

That's a common issue with painter. Results are off, usually, because the shader roughness sampling is quite low by default. Open the shader settings and crank up the roughness samples and you'll immediately see the difference in painter itself