Wrong to be bothered by this?

[Failed Inventor]

I don't mean to be the one to stir the crap pot but... I find it highly disturbing when I see a mesh model imported by a linden, which they don't own IP rights to. I find it more disturbing when falcon and Charlar linden see it one of them click it... but neither remove it.

Maybe I am wrong, this may not be the Halo jeep used in their games by Bungie but if it isn't it strikes a nearly exact resemblance other than its poor rez quality due to my inability to turn up graphics without crashing since last mesh viewer up date.

Now I understand there may be a reason for this, however would like to know what the reason is. While I may not be someone worth answering to, for a company which asks its residents to only upload what they have IP rights to... I don't understand why a linden is breaking linden labs own rules.

I find it sad enough when residents do something like this, at a loss for words to see a lindens name on it.

 

Added: for those that don't know this is the warthog vehicle from Halo, by Bungie 

http://www.aussiekidsrule.com/product_images/e/425/halo-warthog-gun__97361_zoom.jpg

 

[Nacy Nightfire]

"Their company, their rules" not to be confused with "your world, your imagination" and I say this without the least bit of irony.  This is a private company not  a democracy.  Linden Labs can establish rules for their customers that they don't themselves have to abide by, for any number of reasons including testing things.   And this is perfectly fair.  None of us are in a position to question or judge what their intentions are on the beta grid.  So yes...you are wrong to be bothered about this.

[Failed Inventor]

So how is using bungies model in even in testing grid legal if they don't own the IP rights? I believe Linden Lab's isn't above the law. 

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-infringement.html



What Is Infringement?

Copyright is a bundle of exclusive rights. Section 106 of the copyright law provides the owner of copyright in a work the exclusive right:

• To reproduce the work in copies;
• To preparederivative worksbased upon the work;
• To distribute copies of the work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;
• Toperformthe work publicly;
• To display the copyrighted work publicly <--------- Test grid is public!
• In the case of sound recordings, to perform the work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission.

 

 

 

[Nalates Urriah]

If this was on the main grid, you would have a rightious complaint. But, this is on the Beta grid where everything is about experiementing. Everyone is importing all sorts of thngs and no one is worried about IP because the stuff is cleared out every so many hours.

If you are not aware of this: Second Life Mesh Enablement read through it and see if that helps your mood.

[Failed Inventor]

Everyone is importing all sorts of thngs and no one is worried about IP because the stuff is cleared out every so many hours.

that is why I have seen WOW models and other models from other games on this testing grid for weeks now in the same spots?

SL Mesh Enablement

That will be nice, but, Thing is how long till it is implemented, and what does it have to do with lindens uploading content from other games?

 

[Acheron Gloom]

It would probably count as a non-commercial fair-use item, purely for research.

I'm sure Roxie has no intention of selling it, or even using it for anything other than purely testing.

However I'm not a lawyer, so thats really my uneducated opinion.

[amana1488303110]

---

Acheron Gloom wrote:

..... purely for

research

.

However I'm not a lawyer, so thats really my 

uneducated

opinion.

---

That's the Keyword there... research. Probably no one is aware of lab research but if you need to bring up the best product in the market you will need to have samples from other competitions and brands for testing, benchmarking or setting up somekind of treshold of measurements.

Aditi, is a Lab Test area. I don't see where is the wrong here?

I'm not a lawyer, but maybe the OP

is

... so probably that is why he is posting it here and naming a person out it the open forum in the intention of questioning said person's credibility is not really against the Forum TOS?

[Void Singer]

and all of that is assuming it's not some freely distributed fan made mock up of the original...

[Failed Inventor]

No I am not a lawyer I just feel that Linden Labs has plenty of people willing to donate content, the have people they hire on a regular basis to create content, and some of the lindens themselves are pretty creative. 

They really aren't in a position where they need to be bringing in stuff they don't have IP rights to. Beyond legal questions it is more a question of moral.

Say resident A, takes well known resident B's product and manages to upload it to their own test grid, which is public. but people know about. resident B would be pretty pissed. I know I would be upset if people were using my stuff without my permission, without having purchased the rights etc. Sure bungie may not care, they may even be flattered.

However same principle applies, if it isn't yours and you don't have the rights to it, you shouldn't use it. But hey what was I thinking holding LL employees to higher standards than residents.

To me when the public.. on test grid sees something like this... it gives a message that rules don't have to be followed about IP rights, and respecting permissions to use other peoples, ideas and or creations.

Anyways its the principle of the matter, my concerns are clearly not either understood or welcome.

 

[amana1488303110]

and perhaps you also aware of some basic courtesy...

Have you asked the person you circled her name in Red for everyone to see (which is wrong by the forum policy standard, btw) if she asked for Bungie's permission or not?

What is the real issue here? It seems to me you are making the assumption that this particular Linden employee uploaded the object for the sole purpose of crediting it to her name.

It is an open area, but a test area is a test area.. unless there is some unspoken competition between content creators in Aditi of who could make the best mesh, I see no reason why a person wants to upload another person's creation for testing. Besides, you don't really know why she uploaded it in the first place... she might be testing the security part of the grid of possible mesh infringment in the future. If Linden could afford another domain for testing, they would have not used the communal area for testing.

[Failed Inventor]

The real issue is the linden doesn't own the IP rights, and additionally people are even defending the linden on this topic.

Any resident who would have taken another residents work without permissions to test grid and got discovered would have been dmca'ed and reported etc. 

what is the difference? I am pretty sure that not having permission is a safe assumption, unless said linden has some really special relationship with all the decision makers over at bungie, which is about as unlikely.

Infringement is infringement, you don't have to sell, you don't have to give out, in order for IP rights to be infringed.

You can keep attacking the fact that I violated forum tos, and using it as a slamming point for your arguement.

( besides if I don't post proof that it is a linden who uploaded it then people just slam me for saying it is slander, or a lie.)

Or you can simply admit that using someone elses work without permission is infringement and is a disrespect to the original creator. ( btw fair use, requires a non commercial license, or expressed permission from the creator.)

 The law is the law it is not circumstantial... saying sometimes it is ok to violate IP rights as long as you don't profit. 

Its legally wrong, and its morally wrong.

 

[Luc Starsider]

I'm going to ask the same question amana did - "Have you asked ... if she asked for Bungie's permission or not?

It is perfectly possible that LL have a licensing deal with Bungie allowing them to upload these things, and letting them stay rezzed on the beta grid. The only way to find out is to ask LL.

- Luc -

[DanielRavenNest Noe]

---

Failed Inventor wrote:( btw fair use, requires a non commercial license, or expressed permission from the creator.)

 

---

That is incorrect.  "Fair Use" is an exception written into the law from the general rule that you cannot make copies.  It does not require permission, but you do have to fit one of the exception categories.  An example is quoting a short passage for scholarly or review purposes.  The US Copyright Office has a description of Fair Use, which is a good starting point for people who want to understand what it means: Copyright Office Fair Use Page

[Failed Inventor]

OK, so yes I was wrong on the fair use, however. I do not believe this falls under fair use, and even fair use states

"The distinction between fair use and infringement may be unclear and not easily defined. There is no specific number of words, lines, or notes that may safely be taken without permission. Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not substitute for obtaining permission.

When you go to a print shop, they don't allow you to duplicate studio pictures and family portraits without permission from the artist, why is that? cause it infringes on the creators rights.

Why do you think youtube removes movie sound tracks which don't give credit, and doesn't allow download for those that even do, cause it infringes on the creators rights.

Now if you upload someones art, ( virtual content can be considered art. ) creations, work etc.. are you or are you not infringing on their rights by not having permission.

 

Now for those of you who don't have knowledge of royalty fees, licensing fees, etc put on by any company even when you do recieve permission. Would it not be pretty safe to assume that there was no permissions given for uploading this model?

It would be much easier for linden labs to ask a creator, plenty would volunteer, or even a linden to upload an originally created model for testing. It is will within their resources.

You can what if this to death all day, with maybes and such.. but common sense tells me permissions were not asked, were not given and this model needs to be removed from test grid along with any other content uploaded by creators who do not own the IP rights to the models in which they have imported.

 

 

 

[Nacy Nightfire]

I think your energies might be spent in a more creative way, and this type of post sets a negative tone in a forum that works well as a community toward a the common goals of helping others and getting mesh out on the main grid.

As to worrying about law breaking, there are far more important issues in the world that don't get addressed having to do with human rights and dignity.  Linden Labs, I'm sure, has a team of lawyers looking out for its best interests.  Unless your thing is to role-play a detective assigned to LL, I don't think your query has a place here.  Try to contact LL directly and voice your concerns.

[amana1488303110]

attacking? Who? ... me?

You have valid points on those infringement crap you are preaching about. I will absolutely be on your side if the person you so openly accused did actually violated IP rights.

I am however not going to friggin agree with you if what you have is just a snapshot and an assumption. Come back with a true and verified proof that she was indeed violating the IP right and I'll log in with you and we can both AR'd this Linden's ass. How's that?

[Failed Inventor]

I spoke with dan linden who is removing the models. Which I appreciate. They were for testing and I told him i feel it sends the wrong message to residents about respecting IP rights.

Also spoke to him and offered my own time and personal models for their bug testing etc.

 

[Luc Starsider]

Probably the best thing to do. On your part and theirs.

- Luc -

[Vivienne Schell]

Maybe someone should make these techies getting informed on the boring real life laws?

ROFL

"Probably the best thing to do. On your part and theirs."

Hehe, i agree. Bungie does not leave the slightest shadow of a doubt on their license rights in their ToS. I only wonder which app these Lindens used for ripping the vehicle. Nice Job!

LMAO

[Drongle McMahon]

Not that it has any relevance to what is and what is not infringing, but the model in question appears likely to be to be one available from the Google 3D warehouse.

[Vivienne Schell]

Even better!!!

Hahahahahahhahahaha.....

[WolfBaginski Bearsfoot]

Since there's a Warthog on sale on TurboSquid for $10, which has been there for several years, If the IPholders cared, how come they haven't noticed? Sorry, but I think the OP was careless. I don't know if this was the source, but it is so easy to find that I really hope the Lindens are not so prone to jump to conclusions.

[Vivienne Schell]

Bungie do not really care about Turbosquid, not even Google Warehouse, just because these warhogs do not move and do not make make funny noizes on a single desktop. But that´s what they are supposed to do in Second Life, which will make Second Life a plagiat of the game where these objects were ripped from. BIG difference.

And they won´t file a DMCA. They´ll come up with the real warhog nukes.

Anyway, the entire affair is really highly entertaining. Remember the Hulk in their initial presentation of Mesh Imports? Well, they lead the way, don´t they?

:matte-motes-nerdy:

[Drongle McMahon]

Interesting to note that the license FAQ on Turbosquid says that the makers of a virtual world can purchase a model and incorporate it into that world, but that the users who have purchased it cannot resell it there (which I think includes giving it away). Presumably if you have bought it you can use it yourself.

[Vivienne Schell]

Right, that´s the case with almost all of these "free" items, anyway. The question is if someone cares about this with the allmighty dollar blinging in the short distance. And the even more interesting question is what Linden Lab will do to prevent an endless flood of legal trouble. Restricting Mesh uploads to verified accounts only will not solve the problem. As you can see even the Lindens themselves cannot differ between legal and illegal models, how can they expect that the average user who buys some stuff at Turbosquid or Google can (Let´s forget the directly ripped stuff here)? Not to mention the average user who gives away or  - even worse - sells copies in SL? Probably hundreds of copies? Will LL delete the stuff from ALL inventories and ALL in-world locations as soon as someone complains? Big trouble ahead. BIG trouble.