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PROPOSAL= RIGGING POSE AND EDIT MODE WOES DO NOT REFLECT EDIT IN OTHER MODE.


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1 hour ago, VirtualKitten said:

Should for example the  mFaceEyeBrowCentre  not select eye  and just the eyebrow center ?

In the screen-shots below you can see which vertices are weighted to the mFaceEyebrowCenterLeft bone when the that vertex group is selected.Screenshot_4-min.thumb.png.3d11816f1f31bb8065ced0a02807d130.png

But of course not all of those vertices have equal weights (and none have a weight of 1.00 = red color). Some have such low weighting that they are not really visible as being weighted at all when looked at in weight painting mode :Screenshot_6-min(1).thumb.png.be2687de4531d7c17a6cdf0f4256401c.png

For example, in the next screenshot the vertex selected is only weighted at a value of 0.007 to the mFaceEyebrowCenterleft. It is weighted a lot more to the other 3 Vertex Groups. Screenshot_5-min.thumb.png.353b9577deadf890e1be484f23e24326.png

 

1 hour ago, VirtualKitten said:

these weights are going to be a bit finicky so i will select how i am in vertex area 

This is what makes weighting to the bento face bones so awkward. It is only going to get more difficult from here on  :)

 

1 hour ago, VirtualKitten said:

I fixed eyeball but am wondering if this should be just one face above the eye not what was given:

The eyeball should be only weighted to one vertex group with a value of 1.00

 

If you haven't already, you should download and check out the the default Bento avatar/rig and see how it is weight painted.

Also watch some more rigging and weight painting tutorials.

At the very least watch this short 4 part series :

 

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The first screenshot below shows you how to first remove all the vertex groups from all the vertices of the lower teeth :   And the next screenshot shows you how Assign the lower teeth

Basically. There is no easy way to use both. If you weight an eyeball to both the system bone and the alt bone, it will play a blend of a half-strength system animation and a half-strength custom anim

I just played with it some in 2.92. You don't need to hide anything. (You can if you want to. It can make the important parts easier to see and click on.) Select just the bones you want to re-do

Posted Images

Thanks I will have a look at that i selected my seat and removed vector sets am not going to use and tried to connect it to mNeck f am not sure what to connect fire to jaw or tongue as either will give different movement maybe tongue base would be obvious choice?

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8 hours ago, VirtualKitten said:

f am not sure what to connect fire to jaw or tongue as either will give different movement maybe tongue base would be obvious choice?

Head would be most stable. Attaching the fire emitter to the jaw will make the angle change as the jaw moves, including shooting up through the snout if the jaw is closed. I wouldn't attach it to any part of the tongue. That's even less predictable.

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If I have my arms , hands as wings in differant vertex groups  how many parts should i have just everything mHand etc, mElbow etc  mShoulder etc and mCollar etc or is there any others i should keep for proper movement please ?

 

The weight system duplicates everything so i need to remove some and leave others 

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19 minutes ago, VirtualKitten said:

If I have my arms , hands as wings in differant vertex groups  how many parts should i have just everything mHand etc, mElbow etc  mShoulder etc and mCollar etc or is there any others i should keep for proper movement please ?

The weight system duplicates everything so i need to remove some and leave others 

Keep every group that has the same name as a deform bone you're using. If you remove an entire weight group, the bone with that name will stop affecting your mesh. If you click on each weight group one at a time while in weight pain mode, you will see which parts of your mesh are weighted to it. Any group that shows solid blue on everything might be safely deleteable.

Can you explain what you mean by "the weight system duplicates everything"? I don't understand that part.

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Posted (edited)

I hope this looks better but i don't know why my teeth do this . They are separated correctly under vertex bone assignment yet in weight this looks a mess can anyone suggest what is wrong?

329ab5069b154769797a9a613be5e73f.png

 

It seems defiantly the teeth misshaping as  have checked tongue and it is not that I think i need some expert advice as maybe i have messed something up ? Thank you

With skin shown  and teeth selected nothing else is selected so why does it do  this please ?

c11c33881876f8552ed64cf0ab744f09.png

 

Top and bottom are separate 

4688c4477b78a5d5841cf0fbb49a4091.png

 

and bottom is with correct vertex 

So why does it do above 1st image

 

62c480a677db9993028e7cad1a56239e.png

 

Thanks Denise

 

 

 

Edited by VirtualKitten
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, VirtualKitten said:

They are separated correctly under vertex bone assignment yet in weight this looks a mess can anyone suggest what is wrong?

Are you sure that each and everyone of the the vertices of the lower teeth (and gums) are each weighted 100% to the mFaceTeethLower vertex group and only to that one vertex group?

 

An example of a correctly weighted vertex :    In the first screenshot below, which shows an avatars upper and lower teeth, we can see that one of the vertices of the lower teeth has been selected. In the Properties side panel it is showing that this vertex is assigned only to only one  vertex group, the mFaceTeethLower vertex group. (green arrow) This vertex is correctly assigned.

Screenshot_1-min.thumb.png.c539c8d560ccbb8b837da1e27f4c2862.png

 

An example of an incorrectly weighted vertex :   In the next screenshot a different vertex has been selected. This vertex belongs to two vertex groups mfaceTeethLower, green arrow, which is correct and mfaceTeethUpper, red arrow, which is not correct.

Screenshot_2-min.thumb.png.193069bb999e4772c1bccd71d78c2c3d.png

 

Have you checked to see if some of the individual vertices of the lower teeth are assigned to more than one vertex group ?

Select a single vertex  belonging to the lower teeth and check that it belongs to only one vertex group, mFaceTeethLower. Then repeat for some of the other vertices.

 

Edited by Aquila Kytori
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Posted (edited)

But oh dear before you look at images below which I deleted I forgot to select by ' .' mode this shows lots of other weights attributed to other parts on every vertex . How can i remove these easily from all vertext it seems i may have removed them from faces but not vertext oddly

b26fb93fb356580a5205a4e7024680f3.png

 

 

Edited by VirtualKitten
forgot what i was told before
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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, VirtualKitten said:

How can i remove these easily from all vertext it seems i may have removed them from faces but not vertext oddly

The first screenshot below shows you how to first remove all the vertex groups from all the vertices of the lower teeth :

Screenshot_3-min.thumb.png.062c346d3df54b990341af2d02d44b42.png

 

And the next screenshot shows you how Assign the lower teeth vertices to the mfaceTeethLower vertex group.

Screenshot_4-min.thumb.png.9dd012f3cb9b3b1d9003e3a107bf4056.png

Now all vertices of the lower teeth (and gums) belong to only one vertex group, mfaceTeethLowwer.

Select a single vertex and check in the Properties side panel > Item > Vertex Weights that it belongs to only one vertex group.

 

Repeat that procedure for the upper teeth.

Repeat for the each eye if you have not already done so.

Edited by Aquila Kytori
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Posted (edited)

I think i was moving jaw out of moth that is why it stretched the chin ? Am not sure but mouth does not open to far before it goes wrong but is looking much better @Aquila Kytori

But I think there is some other bits causing concern could you help as its close :D see video below

https://i.gyazo.com/babfe243cfaf3d05b5bcda9dfbbf3636.mp4

Edited by VirtualKitten
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14 minutes ago, VirtualKitten said:

an i get my pose position back to object edit position as its  out of alignment to edit mode to clear poses

Hmmmmm this could be a tricky one and I think we should call @Quarrel Kukulcan in on this.

 

I was going to suggest you save a copy of your .blend file before trying to Clear Transforms from the bones with the following procedure

In Pose mode select All the bones. Open the Pose menu > Clear Transforms > Rotations.

This works for the Avatar model I have .......... See screenshot below :

Screenshot_5-min.thumb.png.7fafcc521600fbd63d2c2e51986d646e.png

 

But .........

You are working with a custom model (dragon). You have already repositioned and rotated all the bones, not just the head bones into position from the original skeleton to fit the dragons geometry.

 So I would expect you would then have to Apply the new positions and rotations as a New Rest Pose for your custom dragon ? If this is the case and you have created a new rest pose then perhaps the procedure I suggested above will work but what happens if you Clear Transforms > Rotations and all the bones revert back to their original rotations? thats to say as it was before you started fitting the bones to your custom model  !!! ?

No harm done if you save a copy before attempting this :) ....... but I would like to hear Quarrels opinion on this.

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Nods i am excited about it again as we solved the problem with front teat I just wish there was a way of touching a part in pose mode so it gave you the faces it was in ?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, VirtualKitten said:

But I think there is some other bits causing concern could you help as its close :D see video below

https://i.gyazo.com/babfe243cfaf3d05b5bcda9dfbbf3636.mp4

All I can suggest is that you watch this video again especially from 2:00 :

 

and rewatch the short 4 part tutorial I linked to in an earlier post. The answers will be in there somewhere :)

 

 

Edited by Aquila Kytori
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Posted (edited)

Do you think it could be my  cheeks the area looks a bit large

733fc26065c3ced8f7ce95d564ef3f57.png

I hope this looks better and i think it might be causing problem as this is mFaceCheekLowerRight the mFaceCheekUpper is similar where abouts should these be please your best guesses. Thank you Dx

Edited by VirtualKitten
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Clearing transforms in pose mode is fine. That will set your bones back to their start positions. (Edit Mode changes are what you want to avoid if you are already mostly done with assigning weights.)

Keep in mind, you actually want to put the bones in various positions while you are fine-tuning your weight painting and fixing small errors. You can't see all the problems if you only look at one pose. But you don't want to leave the skeleton in an altered position by accident. Clearing all transforms every now and then avoids that.

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14 minutes ago, VirtualKitten said:

Do you think it could be my  cheeks the area looks a bit large

Maybe, but maybe not. The important part is each vertex's individual weight in that group. WHEN IT COMES TO ANIMATIONS(*), if a vertex is in a group but has a weight of 0.0, that is the same as being out of the group. (And if it's very small...something random like 0.000318, it's practically the same as 0 in most cases.) So you could have a lot of vertices tracking a bone but with weights so small that they don't matter. Check the weights of those large cheek regions, either by:

  • going to weight paint mode, selecting the correct weight group in the groups panel, and looking at the colors, or
  • going to edit mode, selecting single vertices one by one, and looking at the list of weights in the "Item" info inset

Ultimately, the real test is less "are the vertices in the group or out" and more "does the mesh change shape the way I want it to when the bone moves"? So "move the bone in pose mode and watch what happens" is a third way of checking whether there is a problem.

(* Blender has many features other than animations that use weight groups, and some of those features treat zero-weight vertices differently from not-in-the-group vertices. But those don't matter here.)

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Posted (edited)

@Quarrel Kukulcan Well the cheeks come from auto weight model in blender 2.92 there was much wrong with it facially as we have been discussing I am guessing this last cheeky issue is the last one so am excited to get onto animating it . The two upper lower areas are the same so cannot be correct @Aquila Kytori showed me where to set the areas last time within the 'Object Data Properties' tab in edit mode which shows vertex bone groups on auto weighted mesh  which worked with front lips in video here , which also shows whats left to sort https://i.gyazo.com/babfe243cfaf3d05b5bcda9dfbbf3636.mp4

Just in relation to weight painting this within the 'Object Data Properties' tab in edit mode on the vertex group is much more accurate than weight painting and is easier to handle . Clearly the problem must be cheeks and i need new placement vertext areas for mFaceCheekLowerRight and mFaceCheekUpperRight or mFaceCheekLowerLeft and mFaceCheekUpperLeft. @Aquila Kytori  was brilliant and showed the places for teeth and eyes in this thread. He also did a great job teaching about facial bones in this thread which I have learned a lot from xD  
hugs D

Edited by VirtualKitten
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57 minutes ago, VirtualKitten said:

@Quarrel Kukulcan Well the cheeks come from auto weight model in blender 2.92 there was much wrong with it facially as we have been discussing I am guessing this last cheeky issue is the last one so am excited to get onto animating it . The two upper lower areas are the same so cannot be correct @Aquila Kytori showed me where to set the areas last time within the 'Object Data Properties tab in edit moded on ato weghted mesh  which worked with front lips in video here

Yeah. Auto-weighting is just a starting point. You will always need to correct trouble spots like faces and shoulders. Especially faces.

You had problems with the teeth because you added them to one bone but didn't take them off the others. Animations act like all the bone weights on each vertex add up to 1.0 -- even if they don't. If they don't, the animation system (Blender or Unity or SL -- all of them) silently scales them all by the same multiplier so they add up properly.

In your case, you gave the lower teeth a weight of 1.0 for the lower teeth bone but they still had a weight of 1.0 for the jaw bone too. That adds up to 2.0. So they animated like their vertices had weights of only 0.5 to each bone. That's called normalizing -- these are the values that keep the proportions the same but add up to exactly 1.0.

Weights don't automatically normalize when you assign or remove groups with the weight panel on the right. That's why you have to manually remove vertices from all groups before you assign them weights of 1.0 to one specific bone (which I think you didn't do the first time). If you're using weight paint mode, you have the option of automatically normalizing as you paint, so that adding weight to one bone automatically takes it away from the rest (and vice-versa). It's in your tool settings, and it's a good thing to use.

If you have a lot of mis-mixed weights that don't add up to exactly 1.0, you can manually normalize everything with the Weights -> Normalize All menu item in weight paint mode. SAVE FIRST. This will correct small mismatches in weight totals. Actually, it will correct all mismatches, but if there is a big mistake -- and you'll be able to tell because large regions of some bones will change to a drastically different color that you didn't expect -- it will probably be easier to correct the pre-normalized version than the one you just made. Revert to your save (or see if Undo works) and go from there.

autonormpanel.jpg

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3 hours ago, VirtualKitten said:

Just in relation to weight painting this within the 'Object Data Properties' tab in edit mode on the vertex group is much more accurate than weight painting and is easier to handle .

It's more accurate if you want to completely remove some vertices from a bone or set several vertices to an exact value. It's terrible at smoothing out the blending across multiple bones so your hips, lips and elbows flex right.

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Posted (edited)

Yes @Quarrel Kukulcan I understand what you mean but the way above is much cleaner than painting unless you are an art artists then i guess it would be easier. However I still need o work out how big the dragons cheeks should be as they seem to large. 


Also you didn't seem to note that the mFaceCheekLower and mCheekUpper both left and right was weighted wrong from auto weigh placing exactly the same vector groups of faces in the upper and lower. This is why I asked @Aquila Kytori for some idea with the auto for these cheeky bits placing as it seemed all foobar Dx

Edited by VirtualKitten
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