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PROPOSAL= RIGGING POSE AND EDIT MODE WOES DO NOT REFLECT EDIT IN OTHER MODE.


VirtualKitten
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I got a bit further the problem above was because my mFaceJaw was only the outside skin not the skin inside the mouth . Since adding this the mouth was behaving better . my only think left is the tongue which doesn't behave quire right and seems twisted . I presume this is something to do with weights ?

 

caf271bbf1f3379c869611103e928023.png

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1 hour ago, VirtualKitten said:

However I still need o work out how big the dragons cheeks should be as they seem to large. 

One problem we have is you are not always showing the most appropriate screenshots so can you please set up your view as follows :

Starting from this screenshot :

2-min.thumb.png.0328ccaec62eb52597fe79ad8542fb05.png

 

....... for the moment hide the bones :

3-min.thumb.png.5a592463964f80c5fef487e6cca31567.png

 

Next,  the Material you have used for the skin of the dragon is darkening the colours when in weight paint mode. To temporarily remove this effect in the Viewport Shading drop-down change the Color option to Single :

4-min.thumb.png.dab26db727305abe4fa756fdb5fcc753.png

 

Switch to the Weight Paint editor and enable the Show Wire option in Viewport Overlays so that we can see the better the underlying geometry of the model :

5-min.thumb.png.7aef1d368da2a4b5c25cf8c001c9f8ab.png

 

Now take a screen shot of how your dragon head looks like with the mFaceCheekUpperLeft vertex group selected. Avatar head with that vertex group selected :

7-min(2).thumb.png.ca35b787e346cb92d1c3011669d92102.png

 

Do the same with the mFaceCheekLowerLeft vertex group selected selected :

6-min.thumb.png.459fdab6b4383113d919b64ce5b21560.png

 

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, VirtualKitten said:

I have a little bit wrong on the tongue its extending the mesh out to mush how do i fix this please 

Again you have to check the individual vertex to see which vertex groups they belong to. If part of the tongue is not deforming / moving correctly then you know by now that it is because those vertices are not weighted correctly. A little weight painting correction :)

 

Below are some screenshots of the avatar tongue. Notice that almost all the vertices of the tip of the tongue are 100% weighted to the mFaceTongueTip vertex group and the rest are almost 50% mFaceTongueBase and 50% mFaceTongueTip.

Tip of tongue.... all the selected vertices are 100% weighted to mFaceTongueTip group. :

t1-min.png.d0cd4f05008dd41573b1a1ce63fcf655.png

 

These three are 50 - 50 :

t2-min.thumb.png.eb6ac94c9d7978b10b7d254a2c0a4145.png

 

In the next the selected vertices are as good as 50 - 50 :

t3-min.thumb.png.841bd47fefc34412eb98c04f0df08704.png

 

And the back of the tongue is 50 - 50 again :

t4-min.thumb.png.15892ae69168357f2ba7a97bc26b7ea0.png

 

Base of tongue :

t5-min.thumb.png.8a12d9c86c1302a711388d36f996fd7f.png

 

Tip of tongue :

t6-min.thumb.png.a98d679223f95e49e3801a8957f2254b.png

 

So I would suggest painting more of the tip of the tongues vertices red and you should be good.

I am out for the afternoon so won't be able to offer any more suggestions today :)

 

Edited by Aquila Kytori
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21 hours ago, VirtualKitten said:

However I still need o work out how big the dragons cheeks should be as they seem to large. 


Also you didn't seem to note that the mFaceCheekLower and mCheekUpper both left and right was weighted wrong from auto weigh placing exactly the same vector groups of faces in the upper and lower. This is why I asked @Aquila Kytori for some idea with the auto for these cheeky bits placing as it seemed all foobar Dx

Those influence areas are too big if the weights are significantly above 0 all the way to the edge. If not, they're fine.

Again, the important part is WHAT the weights are, not just "do they HAVE a weight?". You should be in weight paint mode when you select a group to check what that group affects. This will show you not just which verts are tied to that bone, but how tightly they are tied and whether the influence properly fades off to dark blue toward the outside. Looking at this in Edit Mode doesn't give you enough info.

(FYI, you can clean your weights to erase all the zeros. This will avoid groups looking like they contain more vertices than they actually influence. In Weight Paint mode, pick "Weights" -> "Clean", then before you do anything else, expand the "Clean Vertex Group" options panel in the bottom left and change Subset to "All Groups".)

If the auto-weighting has truly made the hot zones too big around the cheek bones, the most straightforward fix is to paint corrections by hand. (I believe Blender can auto-mirror this so you only have to fix the upper and lower on one side and the other will match.) If you are editing the cheek bone sizes and re-creating the automatic weights for just those bones, I wish you luck but I can't really help you. I personally avoid that method because I find it confusing and it sometimes erases other fixes I've made.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Quarrel Kukulcan said:

They can't. SL doesn't support shape keys in uploaded mesh.

Yes i note this but do they aid in creating animations in blender? What I mean does a Shape Key afford to a position  or are they synonymous ? i.e. i can call in a shape key and set its position in Animation Workspace or will this break second life as it will try to send these keys to it ? The reason why I ask is my first steps into animation walking did not create a second life bvh animation that worked principally I believe  this may be because i used a base pose to base my animation off and not all positions of bones was exported from  blender 2.92 . I am therefore looking at this more carefully than rushing into it as before. As clearly blender 2.92 has more functionality than what Second life currently supports. 

Hand Weight Painting ,yes i think its easier on less complicated models with non hidden or co linear faces with no room to paint @Quarrel Kukulcan The problem I have experianced with it is in Blender 2.92 you can hide parts to do vertices selection .The paint weight system does not have same functionality that I can find? . This said I think my tongue issue might be bone role as its twisting?

The screens I am in are in edit mode as you can see on the right pressing  6bfb1e0f995dd1c117526d974cec05c1.png called 'Object Data Properties' opens up this fantastic screen you can select assign show and assign vertex bone groups . Its been a really helpful tool that does not use weight painting . The only thing I have to remember to do is to pop into weight painting and check the weights to activate them in model. This usably means cycling through the bone vertex groups  that I have changed: b5d4b4d82414a0b591bb044110a2c0a0.png

This said as you can hide parts of your model in this mode it is far easier than weight painting intricate parts . I hope this helps to explain what we have been talking about and how we have been achieving it D X

Also the tongue tip does not seem to be functioning in my model at all as you see it does not seem joined to the position of the bone which it is idk why :

c5747620aff5bfb2914cf5266807bace.png
 

 

Edited by VirtualKitten
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Posted (edited)

I see @Aquila Kytori i think this might be the problem the weights are in wrong direction to the tail not the head of bone?

 

1b6b1bca6a2af35d8fd86e7a1b3a9415.png

I don't think i can make weights any stronger and its still not following bone  mFaceTounguetip!

d343a9298f5fdac9fde54b4b14a36c64.png

Edited by VirtualKitten
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, VirtualKitten said:

The problem I have experianced with it is in Blender 2.92 you can hide parts to do vertices selection .The paint weight system does not have same functionality that I can find?

 

The procedure to hide parts of the model in Weight paint mode is :

First to hide parts in Edit mode then switch to Weight Paint mode. Enable the masking option, either Vertex or Face and then select the vertices or faces you want to paint on. When you enable masking then what was hidden in edit mode will also be hidden in Weight paint mode.

 

In the example below I hide everything except the Avatars tongue :

1-min.thumb.png.615e60edfafdce4d0829eadd8946fa8b.png

 

Hide the selected geometry:

2-min.thumb.png.dbc768565cb73667246efeb4d4edd885.png

 

Switch to Weight paint mode and for the moment nothing is hidden :

3-min.thumb.png.c9d07abb785f152324524cdd1e2c73bd.png

 

In this example I chose to use Vertex masking. When Masking is enabled the geometry that was hidden in edit mode becomes hidden in Weight Paint mode. :

4-min.thumb.png.ed22c50a808fbfb079caa0053eaa5578.png

 

And finally you have to select the vertices you want to paint. The selection of vertices to paint on is similar to selecting vertices in Edit mode. The shortcut key A will select all the visible vertices. You can select vertices one at a time using Shft + LMB. C key to circle select or B key to box select. :

5-min.thumb.png.d546d0ecb4082c1110da174e7440b762.png

Don't forget to select the correct vertex group before starting to paint  :)

I am using Blender 2.91 and checked that it also works in 2.93.

 

 

Edited by Aquila Kytori
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14 hours ago, VirtualKitten said:

Yes i note this but do [shape keys] aid in creating animations in blender? What I mean does a Shape Key afford to a position  or are they synonymous ? i.e. i can call in a shape key and set its position in Animation Workspace or will this break second life as it will try to send these keys to it ? The reason why I ask is my first steps into animation walking did not create a second life bvh animation that worked principally I believe  this may be because i used a base pose to base my animation off and not all positions of bones was exported from  blender 2.92 .

You can use shape keys and bones together to make animated movies in Blender but shape keys don't export to SL. You can't use them here. (Plus you should not be using them as a patch to fix mesh errors in different ways at the start of each animation -- you should fix the errors for real so all your animations look right by themselves.)

Quote

Also the tongue tip does not seem to be functioning in my model at all as you see it does not seem joined to the position of the bone

Is the bone positioned properly inside the tongue? Make sure you check in rest position, with no pose edits, shape keys, or any other deforms on.

Are the tongue's vertices weighted to just combinations of mFaceTongueTip and mFaceTongueBase (and possibly some mFaceJaw along the very bottom edge)? No other groups?

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Quarrel Kukulcan said:

 

Is the bone positioned properly inside the tongue? Make sure you check in rest position, with no pose edits, shape keys, or any other deforms on.

Are the tongue's vertices weighted to just combinations of mFaceTongueTip and mFaceTongueBase (and possibly some mFaceJaw along the very bottom edge)? No other groups?

Hi yes the bones were in the tongue at rest position I thought i showed image of this no no other bone vertex groups either  idk :

0c8a85228886a6338305bf4843d9dc12.png

Edited by VirtualKitten
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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Aquila Kytori said:

First to hide parts in Edit mode then switch to Weight Paint mode. Enable the masking option, either Vertex or Face and then select the vertices or faces you want to paint on. When you enable masking then what was hidden in edit mode will also be hidden in Weight paint mode

Yes I kind of found this by accident after I posted it selected the other item only . However refused to paint much at all . It could be the paint system is not intuitive but tried combinations of vertext and face but could not get it to paint a desired affect. Was my mTongueBase weighting backwards?. I presume paint weight and strength cant be more than 1.0  which is highest but draw would not draw this in red but blushed it . idk why. It certainly didn't seem to work like paint application photoshop or Gimp GNU Image Manipulation.

Edited by VirtualKitten
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I would have said your extreme weighting of the tongue should have worked OK but as I have said before I have very little experience with this  :)

 

If you check the images I posted earlier of how the Avatar tongue is weighted you will see that the base is approximately 50% mFaceTongueBase and 50% mFaceTongueTip.  Weighted green in both cases.

The very tip of the tongue is weighted 100% to mFaceTongueTip with a gradual fall off to the base :

 

t5-min.thumb.png.8a12d9c86c1302a711388d36f996fd7f.png.bd6a43ffc9cd4cb7945485a5afa66ab4.png

 

t6-min.thumb.png.a98d679223f95e49e3801a8957f2254b.png.c139ea498c8e185c85459b674be7e15d.png

 

If you are still having problems post a new video of the problem and share the Tongue part of your model like you did earlier with the eye.    https://pasteall.org/blend/

Perhaps someone can sort it out .

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@Aquila Kytori I am still not getting same results as you sorry and for some reason still wont follow bones idk why:

mTonguebase:

99e444546fdd1685bb0329a7d22d2803.png

 

mTongueTip

6d2c9326dbb2e758ddc64a7f9093c8b5.png

 

 

The tongue in pose mode which unmoved does not look like it does rested:

b1d35f9c763789cc0066f4eafaeefc9e.png

 

At rest bones selected shown inside tongue

3602c022bd10d51eaa5d70683248cffa.png

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Posted (edited)

DISCUSS I did this pasted  below (in case anyone forgot how do do this i copied  earlier post  on eyeball or didn't see or didn't see procedure under link):

https://pasteall.org/blend/8aaecbb762684e2c9636e757f32a7473

The process is to select, then copy and paste into a new .blend file :

  1. In Edit mode select as much of the geometry around one of the eyes as you can.
  2. Use the key board shortcut Shft + D to make a copy of the selected geometry.
  3. With the geometry still selected hit the P key to open the Separate menu and choose the option Selection. This will separate it into a new object.
  4. In Object mode select only this new object then use Ctrl + C to copy it to "clipboard".

Next is to paste it into a new .blend file,

  1. File > New  General > ( Don't save ) and a new .blend will open.
  2. Delete the default cube.
  3. Paste in the Eye geometry with Ctrl + V  .  The bones will be included with the mesh object.
  4. Save this new .blend and upload to https://pasteall.org/blend/
Edited by VirtualKitten
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Posted (edited)

I got mTongueBase working i had to repaint end red with weight 1 this now works however tongue end doesn't I don't think it has enough vector of face in tongue how do i add a loop cut to it please as its a complex shape not sure how to achieve this ?

1e21bdde0e2ba8757ab352ccb9690435.png

 

 

think it needs loop cut here but not sure how to do it on complex shape.

b039a880692282052df87f775f807629.png

I know I can slide this first loop up but really wanted another loop nothing i tried accomplished this  any ideas please?

 

 

 

 

Edited by VirtualKitten
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51 minutes ago, VirtualKitten said:

think it needs loop cut here but not sure how to do it on complex shape.

 

To add a loop cut all the way around the tongue:

1: First select all the vertices of the tongue.

2: and convert the triangles to quads using the keyboard short cut   Alt J

3: Hover the mouse over one of the edges of the area you want to add the loop and use the keyboard short cut  Ctrl R      :

1009760370_Loopcut-min.thumb.png.5850105358d9c972f86f697665ffd1b3.png

 

If you now look on the underside of the tongue you will find that the loop is not complete. To fix this.......

4: Select the two vertices at each end of the incomplete loop.

5: Use the  J  key to connect the two vertices and the loops will be complete.

1573742667_Loopcut2-min.thumb.png.5a1629dc38905e3a07a8cfa93a1d6de1.png

 

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Posted (edited)

Thanks  so much kisses The weight system did paint for a little bit today but its stopped again .

THERE IS SOMETHING STRANGE WITH IT IT DOESNT SEEM TO WORK WHEN YOU HAVE OBJECT PROPERTIES OPEN 

 

This said  it still does not make end follow bone

7e5c273ffa51524c0ca61977f69071ec.png

 

better view

8f8a183426205ff53a0438426b548617.png

Edited by VirtualKitten
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Posted (edited)

@VirtualKitten

I just checked the weights of the tongue in the tongueblend.blend  file and they are not good ! ! !

For example In the screenshots below I have seleted a vertice that should be 100% weighted to the mFaceTongueTip but it is also weighted heavily to two other vertex groups :

90432601_Tongueweight1-min(1).thumb.png.7bc2ce047c9ad8a6984ec1f0b9920e84.png

 

When Normalized so that all the vertex groups for that vertice adds up to 1.00 we get :

561611236_Tongueweight2-min.thumb.png.40cfec1d7bf048f01e8e31a86afc4d74.png

 

It should be like this :

Screenshot_3-min.thumb.png.db555922734744a89a5a9a1047607794.png

 

Almost all of the vertices of the tongue are weighted one way or another incorrectly. I guess the vertex group named "Group" is one you added just to make selecting only the tongue easier.

What you should have done before painting  is:  Select all of the tongues vertices and use the Remove from All Groups option. So that you start with a clean tongue, no vertex groups assigned to it at all.

Next with the tongue selected assign it 100% to the mFaceTongueBase vertex group.

And lastly switched to weight paint mode , with the mFaceTongueTip vertex group selected paint the tip of the tongue with settings something like in the screenshot below.   Note:  In the Options enable the Normalize option.

1740189606_weightPainttip-min.thumb.png.059d7809fa5de885d27a46931269839e.png

 

Doing it like this you can be sure that the tongue vertices are only weighted to one or other of the  mFaceTongue.... vertex groups (or both)  and that the weights of each vertex will add up to 1.00

 

An example tongue weighted like this can be found here :

https://pasteall.org/blend/be41da1bc7ee4fbbaa69f321c54fde2b

 

 

Edited by Aquila Kytori
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Posted (edited)

See my previous post about the vertices of the tongue tip belonging to vertex groups they should not belong to.  For example vertices of the tip of the tongue assigned heavily to mFaceLipUpperRight !!!!

and no I don't think you need more loops.

Download the "tongueblend modified.blend"  file I linked to and check out how it moves with the tongue bones and jaw bones...... then check out the weights of individual vertices .............all weighted to either mFaceTongueBase or mFaceTonguetip or a little of both BUT not weighted to any other vertex groups  !

Edited by Aquila Kytori
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