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PROPOSAL= RIGGING POSE AND EDIT MODE WOES DO NOT REFLECT EDIT IN OTHER MODE.


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The first screenshot below shows you how to first remove all the vertex groups from all the vertices of the lower teeth :   And the next screenshot shows you how Assign the lower teeth

Basically. There is no easy way to use both. If you weight an eyeball to both the system bone and the alt bone, it will play a blend of a half-strength system animation and a half-strength custom anim

I just played with it some in 2.92. You don't need to hide anything. (You can if you want to. It can make the important parts easier to see and click on.) Select just the bones you want to re-do

Posted Images

1 hour ago, VirtualKitten said:

@Aquila Kytori  Does this look better:

4b1b680da11cfac7d2829b1fe0ed64a0-min.png.260c35057d7e545ea0c0a57c2c95ad0f.png

 

Very hard to make out the names of the bones ....... when taking screenshots of the eye and positions of the eye it would help if we kept it always to the same eye, the one we were referring to earlier, thats to say  the Left eye.

 

Quarrel has mention a couple of times the importance of having the base of the eye bone at the center of the eye ball sphere. it is not clear at all in the above image where that center point is.

I post this image again below :

eyelids.thumb.jpg.8c886ecc824ea4c53fc2cd90d336b28a.jpg.403a0078da9b8e99a6edff4e24c2edd1.jpg.b15d1c335c7090224e9b6433cc04eefa.jpg

 

780180705_EyBrowbonetips-min.thumb.png.891316e08798e63eaef3ad4d5c37b7ee.png

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2 hours ago, VirtualKitten said:

I just need these in place now i

4af56c6be777a15fef34e0b2f477d112.png.a1f9f119665d85e51997e2477b5f5342.png

 

Position of those bones on SL avatar :

420399555_Avatarcheekbones-min.thumb.png.2531417a241456755d2ef4f508852569.png

JawShaper bone is right in the middle of the head :

494123483_mFaceJawShaperBone-min.thumb.png.f789a11dbbb6c6a6d8e6dfee39d7d855.png

 

My guess for the cheek bones :

1701419866_Dragoncheekbones-min.png.d6fd2b072434c325365e13845c2caff5.png

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Posted (edited)

@Aquila Kytori

HI  Thanks for the pictures I am still unsure as where to put mFaceJawShaper or what it actually does its looking a lot better thanks to your amazing help xD I don't understand why there is only one 

f837bfc8af020273c6c7a08d2f0d41d6.png

Edited by VirtualKitten
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I tried weight painting but it said to :
 

  1. Select the Armature.
  2. Shift select the skinned mesh.
  3. Switch mode to Weight Paint.
  4. Shift-Click bones to select them. * Shift double click to select bones hidden under the mesh.

Now the problem is when i do this its hard to see the parts of the mesh to paint any ideas its all black:

 

1d833ccde1c1af7ae0cd364061651789.png

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3 hours ago, VirtualKitten said:

I tried weight painting but it said to :

I was going to say that you are trying to run before you have learnt to walk. But I think its even worse than that, you are trying to  write a book before you have learnt to read !

You seem to have even less knowledge of the subject than I do !  🙂

My advice would be drop the dragon project for the moment and start learning some of the basics.

Watch and recreate some of the tutorials that you can find on Youtube.

Example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBYb1YmaOMY

When you have a better understanding then move onto a simple SL Ruth avatar and learn how to rig that with the basic Ruth bones. When you have that working well inworld then you can open your Dragon project again.

 

I read something in the SL Bento wiki page  http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project_Bento_Skeleton_Guide

Partial Skeletons

Upload of rigged content no longer needs all the bones specified in the DAE file for convenience purposes. For rigged content, simply omitting unused/missing bones from the skinning data is now is allowed.

Find out if that means what It looks like it means. That you don't need to rig your dragon to all those face bones ?

If that is the case then forget all those complicated Bento face bones for your first dragon. The basic SL avatar only has 5 bones for the head:

mNeck      mHead    mSkull   mEyeLeft   mEyeRight

Think how much simpler it would be if for your first dragon you only had to bother with the 5 equivalent Bento bones !

When you have a first dragon operating well you will have enough knowledge to attempt working with the more of the Bento face bones.

On 4/10/2021 at 10:12 PM, Quarrel Kukulcan said:

Here's a big point I don't think anyone has mentioned yet: you're going to have to make your own animations for this face. There is about a 0.000% chance that other people's face animations will work right on yours. So you should arrange your bones and paint your weights in whatever way makes that later step easiest for you to do good work with.

 

 

19 hours ago, VirtualKitten said:

I just tested automatic weights on eyes that the eyeball did not move

Quarrel has answered this as well :

On 4/10/2021 at 10:12 PM, Quarrel Kukulcan said:

(Eyeballs are easier to rig & weight manually than any other part of the face. That's good because automatic weighting won't get it right. Make the eyeball a perfect sphere. Put the eye bone base exactly at the center. The tip is generally pointed through the iris because that's intuitive. Weight every vertex in that eyeball at 1.0 to its bone and to nothing else. Done.)

 

20 hours ago, VirtualKitten said:

I am still unsure as where to put mFaceJawShaper or what it actually does

My guess would be: the mFaceJawShaper does what it says. It is used by one of the avatar sliders to change the shape of the jaw. ?

 

 

Edited by Aquila Kytori
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30 minutes ago, VirtualKitten said:

Is this correct

6b90b2615c8c17beade3cc2810717ffc.png.cedc8a186cb2be31dca0dfcd5ad6afd2.png

With so many overlapping bones it is impossible to say.

Select the bones you want to show and then use the keyboard shortcut Shft + H to hide all the other bones. To bring the hidden bones back into view use the keyboard shortcut keys AlT + H .

We have already covered the position of the avatar Lip and Nose bones on page 3. 🙂

 

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Posted (edited)

Aquila Kytori

i looked at your link http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project_Bento_Skeleton_Guide and there seems to be missing front mHipLeft, mHipRight, mKneeLeft, mKneeRight, mAnkleLeft,mAnkleRight, mFootLeft, ,mFootRight, mToeLeft, mToeRight This link then seems out of date with the Bento Bones given here https://blog.machinimatrix.org/avatar-workbench/  IDK why they are not in a separate section which are used in human avatar these or Hind limbs?

With regard image if you click it it wil zooom up larger so you can read bones your examples did not look right as there was dotted lines connecting them to other bones presumably where there root should be located


D

Edited by VirtualKitten
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1 hour ago, VirtualKitten said:

i looked at your link http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project_Bento_Skeleton_Guide and there seems to be missing front mHipLeft, mHipRight, mKneeLeft, mKneeRight, mAnkleLeft,mAnkleRight, mFootLeft, ,mFootRight, mToeLeft, mToeRight

Those bones are from the original skeleton. The "New Bones" portion of that link only lists the new bones that Project Bento added. (It doesn't include any of the bones added by the Fitted Mesh feature either, though it does mention them later when it explains which bones are affected by body sliders.)

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1 hour ago, VirtualKitten said:

Here we go as requested

e8b36db1324d91c062f97a0cb8f51494.png.b4d2e951545dbee2d988423e5d34aaa2.png

 

My best guess, base of mFaceLipUpper bones:

UpperLipBones-min.png.79094adb51d2efccdc76fd0f6f228c48.png

 

Best guess for mFaceLowerLip bones:

LowerLipBones-min.png.d344c164171ff85347fe1ec238fd57bc.png

 

And for the position of the mFaceLipCornerLeft and mFaceLipCornerRight I would position much farther back at the actual corners of the mouth :

339874009_LipCornerLeft-min.png.edfccf244fcdafbe0ca0cfa68a31ac1b.png

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1 hour ago, Quarrel Kukulcan said:

Unfortunately mSkull is included in the Ruth avatar I have.

Learning rigging/weight painting etc  has been on my to-do list for a long time but never got around to it. This thread has definitely convinced me that I never want anything to do with SL avatar bones ever again !  😀

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In the general case, it's a bad idea to have bones for central features, like lips, to come in from the side. It's even worse to have the top lip bones come in sharply from the character's right and the bottom lip bones to come from the left. Center the heads of the UpperCenter and LowerCenter lip bones, and make the others symmetrical. Remember the hint about eyebrow & corner bones: generally, you should angle bones like these directly into the mesh relative to the geometry around the spot they poke out of.

In the specific case of a dragon, you don't have enough bones to create good animations with. It will be a serious challenge -- and rigging a face is already challenging enough! The snout is just too long, so it has a far longer lip line than humans do. And unfortunately, you can't add more bones in SL. You have to use the existing skeleton. You'll have to think hard about exactly how much of the lips you want to move when it talks and/or be reshapeable with face sliders.

lipbones.png

Edited by Quarrel Kukulcan
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12 minutes ago, Aquila Kytori said:

Unfortunately mSkull is included in the Ruth avatar I have.

Oh, it's there. But I believe none of the system avatar is weighted to it. I suspect it was either planned for use and abandoned or it was added originally to give avatars the ability to wear two different head items (like a hat and also glasses), back when each bone allowed only one attachment.

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Quarrel Kukulcan said:

Oh, it's there. But I believe none of the system avatar is weighted to it. I suspect it was either planned for use and abandoned or it was added originally to give avatars the ability to wear two different head items (like a hat and also glasses), back when each bone allowed only one attachment.

https://i.gyazo.com/e826692b4f0187d7e1d2b300285e5759.mp4

Please see video above  

I selected the bone and as you can see from the video  that the rotating the bone in weight and painting the arts not moving does not move them. What am i doing wrong as am new to this 

With automatic weights the whole model is black  when weights applied i have seen other models on youtube with automatic weights with correct painted . I thought you could click a bone and paint around it . but its hard to find the mesh part with it all black . Does the automatic weights not work in 2.92 on face?

Edited by VirtualKitten
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2 hours ago, VirtualKitten said:

like this

5ffe4174365a248c3f4c346975e6010c.thumb.png.89eb152c380b8c21691afc45276719b1.png

It looks like you have the tip of mFaceCornerLeft much to far back. It should be at the corner of the mouth. The position the  base much farther back inside the head :

mFaceLipCornerLeft-min.thumb.png.2ec2726877c8f7c60be14e1dd47edc33.png

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