Blender mesh creation with SL in mind

[JulsToffy]

Hi everyone!

I hope it's okay to post here, but I wanted to ask a couple of questions and there seem to be a lot of experts around!

I really want to start making my own decor and I'm doing tutorial examples in Blender for simple objects. So far I've made a plate and a bucket lol. But I know there is much more to mesh creation for SL, including LOD, ambient occlusion baked maps, uv maps and etc for low land impact. I can't find any good tutorials to guide me in this and a lot of stuff on youtube is aimed at videogames and video creation. Would anyone please point me in the direction of tutorials/videos that I should check out that can help with creating objects for SL?

p.s. Here is an example of my bucket, I feel like I overcomplicated it

[PekeNL]

I'd like to know as well. I'm going to follow this topic for a while. 

So far it doesn't look -too- complicated, but I can't judge as I can't see the current complexity and the topology.

[Tonk Tomcat]

Don't forget to retopo and use normal maps to save polygons: How to Bake Perfect Normals in Blender - Tutorial

[Chic Aeon]

My tutorials are here. Note that they were made in Blender 2.79 so the interface will NOT be the same. All the ideas are still relevant though.  Good luck and happy learning: 

 

[JulsToffy]

53 minutes ago, Tonk Tomcat said:

Don't forget to retopo and use normal maps to save polygons: How to Bake Perfect Normals in Blender - Tutorial

Thank you! This is definitely something I wanted to learn, so cool!

40 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

My tutorials are here. Note that they were made in Blender 2.79 so the interface will NOT be the same. All the ideas are still relevant though.  Good luck and happy learning: 

 

Whoah, thanks so much!! I'll follow this and learn!  So exciting!

[Kyrah Abattoir]

Baking AO, and baking in general can be very useful, but do keep in mind they bloat your texture usage and should be avoided if you intent on using texture repeats.

[ChinRey]

On 7/5/2020 at 10:43 AM, JulsToffy said:

p.s. Here is an example of my bucket, I feel like I overcomplicated it

From what I can see in the picture, if the triangle count is 528 or 526, you already have geometry control better than most SL mesh makers. Assuming the bucket has an interior too I think 420 tris is the lowest you can go without changing the looks from the angle that picture is taken from. If you've managed that on your first attempt, you're a legend.

Curve resolution is 24 which makes perfect sense. You could possibly go down to 20 or so but not much less than that or the to edge of the bucket will start to look annoyningly angular.

You managed to figure out the trick to get each hoop (that's the two embedded rings around the bucket) down to 96 tris - most wouldn't be able to reduce beyond 120 or 192. They can be done at 60 or so (depending on how thick the wall of the bucket is) but that's where the legend status comes in. One design tip btw , if you want the hoops to stand out so much that they need geometry rather than texturing, you probably need to exaggerate their sizes a little bit.

I'm not sure you really need to bevel the top edge and you may be able to save quite a few tris by making it flat and maybe smooth it with normals instead.

My only real objection to the geometry we can see in the picture, is the embedded edge along the bottom. That's at least 96 extra tris and it'll hardly be noticeable in the end. Better to use texturing for a detail like that.

---

Next step is normals. You want smooth normals for the walls of the ucket and possibly for the hoops too. Split (Ctrl+V) the outer and inner walls and apply smooth normals to them. Also try to apply smooth normals to the hoops to see if that gives a result you're happier with. As for baking normal maps as Tonk suggested, that's a very good technique to know but for something as simple as this there shouldn't be any need for it. It may do more harm than good even since you may loose more performance from more complicated textures/surface maps than you gainf rom simpler geometry.

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by ChinRey

[Quarrel Kukulcan]

25 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

As for baking normal maps as Tonk suggested, that's a very good technique to know but for something as simple as this there shouldn't be any need for it.

Yeah. In Blender you can selectively Shade Smooth or Shade Flat individual edges, and those settings are retained through export and affect SL appearance. (I learned this the hard way after assuming they didn't since they don't when you export for 3D printing.) If you can rely on that alone, you don't need a normal map, which helps your object's Land Impact and rendering performance.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Quarrel Kukulcan

[Chic Aeon]

Also EEP is making normal and specular maps "problematic" so getting too involved in that right now is likely not the best use of time. Since EEP is apparently (another current thread) being "fixed" even though it was reportedly NOT going to be LOL -- then we still don't have a finished code to test with.  

And of course some very slick third party softwares make incredible maps with almost no effort (I used those a lot in Sansar -- not here though as Windlight makes the maps change SO VERY MUCH and we don't have control over how others see our work.  In Sansar you DID have control so the maps were much more useful -- for me anyway. 

[ChinRey]

2 hours ago, Quarrel Kukulcan said:

... since they don't when you export for 3D printing.

Well, what 3D printing actually means is exporting your model to Real Life and for some weird reason Real Life hasn't implemented normal maps at all yet.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

On 7/5/2020 at 11:24 PM, Quarrel Kukulcan said:

Yeah. In Blender you can selectively Shade Smooth or Shade Flat individual edges, and those settings are retained through export and affect SL appearance. (I learned this the hard way after assuming they didn't since they don't when you export for 3D printing.) If you can rely on that alone, you don't need a normal map, which helps your object's Land Impact and rendering performance.

You should actually "shade smooth" the entire object and use "sharp edges + autosmooth" to define your hard edges instead, the problem with shade flat is that all the resulting triangles will have their vertices duplicated to create that "flat" look, even if they are coplanar.

Shade flat is mostly useful when sculpting as it magnifies curvature changes.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Kyrah Abattoir

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

You should actually "shade smooth" the entire object and use "sharp edges + autosmooth" to define your hard edges instead, the problem with shade flat is that all the resulting triangles will have their vertices duplicated to create that "flat" look, even if they are coplanar.

As I mentioned in my first post, I use Ctrl+V Split instead when combining smooth and sharp edges. No particular reason for it, it's just how I'm used to do it and the end result after the model has been through the SL uploader is the same anyway.

Edited July 7, 2020 by ChinRey

[JulsToffy]

Whoah, thanks so much everyone for insight and helpful comments!! I'm working hard to practice on more tutorials and I think I understand some things even better now  So i'll remake the bucket with all the knowledge already gotten  So much to learn!

[Tami Amat]

On 7/5/2020 at 5:52 AM, Chic Aeon said:

My tutorials are here. Note that they were made in Blender 2.79 so the interface will NOT be the same. All the ideas are still relevant though.  Good luck and happy learning: 

 

This is one of the videos I've watched before and it is VERY good! I recommend it for beginners. 

[Tami Amat]

I just created a Discord chat group if anyone would like to join me? I'm looking to gain more experience using Blender and even signed up for their Cloud training. https://discord.gg/5Anfrxg is the server channel I created. I'm definitely a noob when it comes to using Blender, but I thought it might be nice to have experience and novice alike sharing and helping. 

[JulsToffy]

I hope it's okay to bump this topic again! I've spent some time doing tutorials by BlenderGuru and learning the basics to understand Blender better - wow I learnt so much!

Then I made an object on my own, a little honey jar, to practice what I learnt and then tried to upload it to SL, which is where I realised everything is much more nuanced. Could I please get some advice on these questions? :

1. My honey jar consists of a lid, a jar itself and honey inside. How do I properly import this to SL? Do I need to join objects into a single one before uploading it? 
2. These 3 parts of the jar combined jacked up insane vertices amount, I mean 99k. How do I work around this? It's a tiny jar lol. But I don't want to delete all the nice shape I gave it. I'm adding a picture of it to show it (don't mind the noise, my laptop takes its time ). I disabled the modifiers for render just to see what happens and it's kind of nice, but less so. Perhaps, there is some systematic approach to this and as a newbie I don't know yet.
3. The jar is a glass one and I made it using the Principled bsdf node. However, when I uploaded the mesh and applied texture, the jar was completely black. Do I need to add transparency to the mesh itself despite the material node or do I need to do anything else?
4. I want to make a shadow for my jar beneath it, just something soft and natural, but not sure how to. Could I please get advice on that, too? Thank you

 

[n0minous]

Concerning question 2, could you show the model in Blender in edit mode and solid view? Just so we can see how dense the geometry really is. For modeling game assets, you should give the areas with curvature just enough edges to avoid the silhouette looking too faceted. This depends on a number of factors such as how close the object will ever (or normally) appear on screen. For example, if you plan (for yourself or your customers) to be able to see the jar that close in-game, you should only need about 32 faces at most on the outside of the jar and lid. If it will normally be viewed from further away (like a meter or so), then you can get away with a lower amount such as 16. Optimizing models this way is very important for game assets and you shouldn't add more geometry unless it contributes to the model's silhouette. It's less of a problem for modern games, but I understand that a lot of existing SL models suffer from too dense geo, which contributes to low frame rates.

[JulsToffy]

1 minute ago, n0minous said:

Concerning question 2, could you show the model in Blender in edit mode and solid view? Just so we can see how dense the geometry really is. For modeling game assets, you should give the areas with curvature just enough edges to avoid the silhouette looking too faceted. This depends on a number of factors such as how close the object will ever (or normally) appear on screen. For example, if you plan (for yourself or your customers) to be able to see the jar that close in-game, you should only need about 32 faces at most on the outside of the jar and lid. If it will normally be viewed from further away (like a meter or so), then you can get away with a lower amount such as 16. Optimizing models this way is very important for game assets and you shouldn't add more geometry unless it contributes to the model's silhouette. It's less of a problem for modern games, but I understand that a lot of existing SL models suffer from too dense geo, which contributes to low frame rates.

Yeah, this makes sense! I imagine I'll have to learn to reduce it for the in-game purposes, oof. Here is a screenshot!

[n0minous]

Ah, it seems you're using subdivision surfaces. This is a high poly model and you'll need a low poly model in order to bake the high poly's details onto a tangent space normal map for use in SL. The low poly will be the final model that will be imported to SL. It seems that your base mesh (the high poly model without a subdivision modifier added) is dense enough, so I would simply duplicate it for use as the low poly model. Afterwards, simply delete the support loops that you used to model the high poly since they're unneeded for the low poly. Then watch some UV unwrapping + normal map baking tutorials on youtube and you should have a great normal map on your low poly model that contains all the nice, soft details of the high poly.

Edited July 14, 2020 by n0minous

[Chic Aeon]

1 hour ago, JulsToffy said:

Yeah, this makes sense! I imagine I'll have to learn to reduce it for the in-game purposes, oof.

Here is a little philosophy -- which used to be "preached" a lot back in the day when this mesh board was really active :D.  Really not aimed at YOU, OP, but just the general beginner populous. 

Not all tutorials on the web are for GAME ASSETS (low poly models that are needed for platforms like Second Life).  In fact MOST are not.  So it is extremely (oh so extremely) important that beginners understand this and don't get sucked into that "it must be perfect and look like real life no matter what the poly count is" syndrome.  This is the main reason so many folks complain about "lag". 

As far as I can tell from your screenshot, it is NOT showing all those 99K vertices that are there when you apply the sub-surface modifier.  The sub surface modifier is NOT YOUR FRIEND in Second Life.  Sub-surf "1" is certainly OK  but beyond that?  HMMMM.    But let's look at your screenshot and pretend that is your final model.  Even so there are plenty of vertices that need to disappear.  All those divided circles in the bottom of the jar don't need to be there --- only the ones on the outer edge that make the curve where the jar meets the table. No one will SEE the bottom of that jar. (If this was a spilled jar then of course they would see, but still many edgeloops could easily be eliminated.  )

 

Rather than make a super high RENDER QUALITY model that you don't need, try thinking more simply.   So far as not getting your textures into SL, they need to be baked into a texture which you upload.  This wouldn't have been covered in a tutorial aimed at render quality models. They are just for looking pretty for photography :D.   I have no idea how you do that with the nodes and shaders and new 2.8 system. Folks used that in Sansar but Sansar has a very different uploader system. Presumably your shaders will work in SL and hopefully someone will let you know.  

 

So far as the glass goes, again -- doesn't work like that in SL.   You also need to make the outside of the glass as one  Blender material and the inside another Blender material so that you don't have weird alpha issues.   So you will have four materials:  wood, glass exterior, glass interior and sand.   Your model should be joined into one mesh object,   It should be under 1K for triangles for the highest LOD. It should be 1 land impact and it should have all four textures on ONE texture plain.   

 

[smiling]

 

So I suggest that you keep on working at this -- maybe starting the process over again and making a lower poly product to begin with -- and see how successful you can get bringing that into SL.   Honestly the MODELING part of the 3D modeling process is the simplest part :D.  So many other things to deal with.   Remember to have FUN along the way.   

 

You have already accomplished a lot. It takes time. 

 

[JulsToffy]

1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

Here is a little philosophy -- which used to be "preached" a lot back in the day when this mesh board was really active :D.  Really not aimed at YOU, OP, but just the general beginner populous. 

Not all tutorials on the web are for GAME ASSETS (low poly models that are needed for platforms like Second Life).  In fact MOST are not.  So it is extremely (oh so extremely) important that beginners understand this and don't get sucked into that "it must be perfect and look like real life no matter what the poly count is" syndrome.  This is the main reason so many folks complain about "lag". 

As far as I can tell from your screenshot, it is NOT showing all those 99K vertices that are there when you apply the sub-surface modifier.  The sub surface modifier is NOT YOUR FRIEND in Second Life.  Sub-surf "1" is certainly OK  but beyond that?  HMMMM.    But let's look at your screenshot and pretend that is your final model.  Even so there are plenty of vertices that need to disappear.  All those divided circles in the bottom of the jar don't need to be there --- only the ones on the outer edge that make the curve where the jar meets the table. No one will SEE the bottom of that jar. (If this was a spilled jar then of course they would see, but still many edgeloops could easily be eliminated.  )

 

Rather than make a super high RENDER QUALITY model that you don't need, try thinking more simply.   So far as not getting your textures into SL, they need to be baked into a texture which you upload.  This wouldn't have been covered in a tutorial aimed at render quality models. They are just for looking pretty for photography :D.   I have no idea how you do that with the nodes and shaders and new 2.8 system. Folks used that in Sansar but Sansar has a very different uploader system. Presumably your shaders will work in SL and hopefully someone will let you know.  

 

So far as the glass goes, again -- doesn't work like that in SL.   You also need to make the outside of the glass as one  Blender material and the inside another Blender material so that you don't have weird alpha issues.   So you will have four materials:  wood, glass exterior, glass interior and sand.   Your model should be joined into one mesh object,   It should be under 1K for triangles for the highest LOD. It should be 1 land impact and it should have all four textures on ONE texture plain.   

 

[smiling]

 

So I suggest that you keep on working at this -- maybe starting the process over again and making a lower poly product to begin with -- and see how successful you can get bringing that into SL.   Honestly the MODELING part of the 3D modeling process is the simplest part :D.  So many other things to deal with.   Remember to have FUN along the way.   

 

You have already accomplished a lot. It takes time. 

 

Thank you so much for your insight on this and your input, this is a lot of information I was definitely looking to hear! I'm glad I did all those tutorials, and I can see how I'll need to change my thinking indeed I'm probably going to spend some time studying mesh decor items in SL itself from other creators and see how they're doing things, so I can see how I can adapt.

I've already tried making a uv map (and yay successfully, all materials in one UV map!) and an AO map I think photoshopped onto the UV map, so I hope I'm onto something. Going to remake the honey jar and see what I can do to still make it look nice in-game and not as laggy haha. Thanks so much for helping me, I was worried there wouldn't be anyone to ask questions around this forum!

I'll try again and then share my results!  BTW, your tutorials also helped me immensely!

[Chic Aeon]

12 minutes ago, JulsToffy said:

Thank you so much for your insight on this and your input, this is a lot of information I was definitely looking to hear! I'm glad I did all those tutorials, and I can see how I'll need to change my thinking indeed I'm probably going to spend some time studying mesh decor items in SL itself from other creators and see how they're doing things, so I can see how I can adapt.

I've already tried making a uv map (and yay successfully, all materials in one UV map!) and an AO map I think photoshopped onto the UV map, so I hope I'm onto something. Going to remake the honey jar and see what I can do to still make it look nice in-game and not as laggy haha. Thanks so much for helping me, I was worried there wouldn't be anyone to ask questions around this forum!

I'll try again and then share my results!  BTW, your tutorials also helped me immensely!

When you look at the items around SL, be sure and inspect them (maybe just 3rd party viewers for that, not sure) and you will see a HUGE difference in triangle count and in texture use.  In theory (this from devs who understand how the viewers work) the triangle count is more important (better put that in quotes- "important") than the texture usage. STILL, better to use the smallest amount of texture that you can and have it look good. A 1024 texture on a match head (yes, really) is NOT NEEDED *wink*.

 

Here is where you find that feature: 

 

And there were plenty of people that helped ME along the way here, so I am just paying it forward.  

 

Your turn will come :D.   

[ChinRey]

6 hours ago, JulsToffy said:

These 3 parts of the jar combined jacked up insane vertices amount, I mean 99k. How do I work around this?

By trying to figure out what can be left out.

A few examples: you seem to have a curve resolution (that is the number of vertices along a full cricle) of 32. That is clearly way too much. I suggested 24 for the bucket but since this is a much smaller object even that may be too much. You're certainly not going to see any difference between 32 and 24 for this and you can probably go down to 16 or even 12 with no noticeable effect. If you think that seems trivial, reducing from 32 to 24 elminiates 25% of the vertices for that part of the mesh. 32 to 16 elininates half the vertices and 32 to 12 62.5%.

Next: there seem to be a few superfluous edgeloops up the side of the container. Can you get rid of those?

Then there's the rather complicated bottom of the jar. Is anybody ever going to actually see it?

But since I get the impression you rely heavily on modifiers to shape your mesh, maybe I should take it down to a more basic level:

WHEN YOU'RE BUILDING FOR GAMES OR VIRTUAL WORLDS IN BLENDER,  EDIT MODE IS YOUR MAIN WORK MODE, NOT OBJECT MODE!!!

 

If you can remember that, you've taken yet anotehr step towards becoming a Great Builder.

Edited July 14, 2020 by ChinRey

[Quarrel Kukulcan]

2 hours ago, JulsToffy said:

I've already tried making a uv map (and yay successfully, all materials in one UV map!) and an AO map I think photoshopped onto the UV map, so I hope I'm onto something.

I was under the impression that Blender can bake in crevice shadows itself, and that you don't need to go through the extra steps of A) produce an image of just the shadows, B) save that image separately, and C) use an entire separate program to merge the shadow texture onto the base diffuse texture for every object you create -- just the ones you intend to be easily retextured by other creators (or even by yourself).

 

[n0minous]

1 hour ago, Quarrel Kukulcan said:

I was under the impression that Blender can bake in crevice shadows itself, and that you don't need to go through the extra steps of A) produce an image of just the shadows, B) save that image separately, and C) use an entire separate program to merge the shadow texture onto the base diffuse texture for every object you create -- just the ones you intend to be easily retextured by other creators (or even by yourself).

I'm sure you can do that using Blender's shader nodes, but isn't using layer-based image editing software like Photoshop and Substance Painter easier since you just use a multiply blending mode over the diffuse map? Especially if you're already familiar with Photoshop, which I assume Juls is. I know that node-based workflows can be very powerful for things like non-destructive editing, but their learning curve can be steep compared to layers.