building Building my mesh house

[Beggar Mayo]

Hello:

Apparently this topic is very often. I am learnig to build. I am trying to build my house, my mesh house. I started in SL editor doing some base model. I imported it to my PC to work with it in Sketchup and/or Blender. For me, the first one is more easy to use, but I am learning slowly the second that confuse me a lot.

I made this basement for the house (with Sketchup), with door and one floor, export my collada but... when I try to upload to SL, any time, any way, I can't walk through doors and some parts of the floor, stoped by "invisible" walls (triangles) that already can be seen during the analysis, no matter if I use my collision file or just high option. I tried to simplify with Blender the triangulation but, as I said I am so confuse with Blender tools and shorcuts.

When I do a simple room, more short than this, I can go inside and walk, but not this time. I always convert the character to prim when edit the mesh in SL. Simply, the question is that I don't know or don't understand how to control that invisible triangules. Maybe I am doing wrong in the process of building it self before upload or during the process of upload. I looked a lot of videotutorials, read a lot of comments and I feel as lost as if in the begining. Please, help me. Explaining me building mesh for dumps and have a good control of physics, step by step!

BTW, I discovered saddly that the options to upload are quite differents in beta grid than in normal grid, with less options abled, for example in the section of simplifying methods. If there is someone that also can explain me in spanish, much better.

[Chic Aeon]

https://www.slartist.com/house-physics-for-second-life-blender_fafd82260.html

Sketchup is not a good program for Second Life. Blender works well. 

[Beggar Mayo]

Thx. Chic. Maybe I am more dump that I imagine. Your videos are the best and I like the way you explain, sure. But... This particular one I saw it I don't know how many times. I understand that is a synthesis only and you explain very clear. Nevertheless I don't understand (using Blender or Skecthup) what I am doing wrong.

Sketchup is not so bad, really. And is more easy and quick to use. Maybe the big "complain" could be related with geometry inside the mesh and tools that are better in Blender. Blender is perfect, with the big exception of the labyrinth of menus and shortcuts that only confuse. I realized that I need invest more than 2 hours daily of practice to understand that beautiful program. I don´t have enough time to do that, not enough memory to memorize all the estupid shortcuts that make my fingers and ideas become a cuff. When I do an objetc, the next day I forget all the steps followed. Add to the complexity the factor of the language. When I watch the videos in english I lose some parts of the explanations since my natural language is spanish, without saying that some of the videos lose time with empty descriptions or showing the shortcuts and mistakes or think that the person watching has enough, not only knowledge but practice with Blender. Is hard watch the tutorials and work with Blender at the same time and no one encourage to do some "homework". When I watch videos made by latins, some use english so bad pronunced that I lose part of the explanations. When I watch videos that use, like me, the interface in spanish, there are none that explain well nothing. I lost more time trying to understand the program (Blender) and how it works than creating! I understand the limitations of each one and belive me that I am doing a big effort in learning Blender, but is the day that I still feel lost and estupid and I can't live in my house made by my own hands.

With your video I understand that I need to do two files, collada and phys (forget about UV mapping, another headake!) And the phys most be very simple. OK... I made this experiment:

1) Builded a room in SL and saved to my PC as collada.

2) Imported the collada into Sketchup. I noticed that the group of objetcs made in SL have naturally more lines because the build prims don't fit perfect, so is necessary to edit and clean the sketch (I guess is similar in Blender). Once cleaned, I exported as collada and uploaded. And voilá! There is the mesh, low prim, the blue one in the pic. It took me half hour! I uploaded it without use the phys file, using the high phys option in the uploader window. Converted to prim and worked fine.

3) I did the same using Blender. But simply lost my self trying to remember, just remember, the tools, so couldn't edit the objetc to produce the mesh and upload it. I desperated and quit after one hour.

4) I draw a big room in Sketchup without a roof. Exported as collada and uploaded. No physics file. Physics didn't worked. Invisible triangles close door and corners.

5) The same big room... I made a roof and uploaded using the high physics and genereting normal vectores 100% (in each origin selected use upload), otherwise phys don't work. And works!

6) I draw a big room in sketchup with roof and balcon. Uploaded the same way. But in this case I upload with and without phys. Works more or less. I could walked through the door and inside, but when I tried to go through the door of the balcon, couldn't. Some invisible triangule stoped me.

Is the day that I find no videos, no explanations that show me easy, step by step, not only how to build a mesh house little more complex than a simple cube and take control of physics, and how use the uploader window. BTW. this last one gives less options in SL beta than in normal grid, so, again, is difficult understand which ones are the best options at the moment of upload.

 

 

[arton Rotaru]

18 hours ago, Beggar Mayo said:

BTW. this last one gives less options in SL beta than in normal grid, so, again, is difficult understand which ones are the best options at the moment of upload.

That's most likely due to something you do different. The mesh import is certainly the same on the Main, and Beta grid. Use the official Second Life viewer instead of Third Party Viewers to upload mesh.

You should try to break that mesh down into multiple simple objects. Separating the floor from the walls would be the first step I would take. Then creating the proper physics shapes for each object, and upload it either one by one, and assemble it in-world, or It can be imported all together as well. But that requires some proper naming of the meshes, and especially the number of visible meshes, and the number of physics shapes has to match.

Also make sure that the dimensions of the physics shapes bounding boxes do match the bounding box dimensions of the visible meshes.

As for the upload options. Try loading your custom physics shape, and leave the other buttons untouched. Doing that will leave the physics mesh as a triangle based physics shape. This does work quite well for buildings like houses usually. However, tri-based physics can be problematic under certain circumstances.

If you hit the Analyze button, you break the physics mesh down into a set of convex hulls. If you do that, make sure when you hit the Simplify button as well, that the Method in the simplify section is set to Retain %, to prevent it from closing holes. You can explode the convex hulls in the preview window with the Preview spread slider to get a better view of all the hulls the decomposition has created.

Speaking of viewers. I'm also not a native english speaker, but I have set my viewers language to english all the time. Same for all the content creation programs I use, because of that most of the tutorials are in english. The language of the internet is English, so keeping the UI in English as well makes life easier for both sides.

Edited April 18, 2018 by arton Rotaru

[Beggar Mayo]

Thx, Arton. I will try everything you say, step by step, dividing my mesh in floors and rooms and assemble in-world. I am slow so when I finish I will return here to show you how am I going with the process. This will give time to others to expose more ideas or advices about. Just one more thing, as you can see I use some rounded shapes also and physics don't work as I expect with the "cube method", or, again, I am doing something wrong.

[Beggar Mayo]

On 18/4/2018 at 4:48 PM, arton Rotaru said:

That's most likely due to something you do different. The mesh import is certainly the same on the Main, and Beta grid. Use the official Second Life viewer instead of Third Party Viewers to upload mesh.

You should try to break that mesh down into multiple simple objects. Separating the floor from the walls would be the first step I would take. Then creating the proper physics shapes for each object, and upload it either one by one, and assemble it in-world, or It can be imported all together as well. But that requires some proper naming of the meshes, and especially the number of visible meshes, and the number of physics shapes has to match.

Also make sure that the dimensions of the physics shapes bounding boxes do match the bounding box dimensions of the visible meshes.

As for the upload options. Try loading your custom physics shape, and leave the other buttons untouched. Doing that will leave the physics mesh as a triangle based physics shape. This does work quite well for buildings like houses usually. However, tri-based physics can be problematic under certain circumstances.

If you hit the Analyze button, you break the physics mesh down into a set of convex hulls. If you do that, make sure when you hit the Simplify button as well, that the Method in the simplify section is set to Retain %, to prevent it from closing holes. You can explode the convex hulls in the preview window with the Preview spread slider to get a better view of all the hulls the decomposition has created.

Speaking of viewers. I'm also not a native english speaker, but I have set my viewers language to english all the time. Same for all the content creation programs I use, because of that most of the tutorials are in english. The language of the internet is English, so keeping the UI in English as well makes life easier for both sides.

Arton and Chic:

I followed your steps patiently as you can see in the pics attached and the video linked.

Description:

1) I made my model with Skecthup (sorry, Chic, I promise I will do the next experiment for this topic with Blender, I have more understanding now, working hard with it *smiles). With all porpouse I made it in two parts, one without balcon, second adding the balcon (the more problematic). I found and understood what you say Chic, in your video, about "divide elements", especially closing the door umbral on top and opening space between walls, otherwise physics don't works properly.

2) With balcon I did the same in the door, but, physics works more or less, no matter which method or analyze and or simplify I use, always there is a triangle in the middle of the door to the balcon. I don't know how to avoid it. I think I am still missing something during building or doing something wrong.

3) I tested different ways to upload and the principal change is in cost, not precisly in Land impact. And, yes, Arton, Second Life official viewer gives all the options to upload in Beta, I need to check and compare in normal grid. Perhaps is the same situation. BTW, which you suggest could be the best height of walls for a building to give liberty to camera, considering that there are giant avatars in proportion?

4) As I understand, Sketchup gives chance to produce the collada with the UV map when using textures. My next experiments to share with you will be: a) exporting and cleaning this model with Blender. b) Building this model directly in Blender. c) Compare results.

This is the result of this experiment & P.D.: The last three pics show how I finally solved the trouble of the invisible triangle at the door in the balcon. I forgot draw the bottom line to close the square and erase the faces unusful in the umbral. After fix that, physic works compleatly! And, more, I exported the collada from sketchup with uvmap autogenerated (after applied materials in the model). When I tried to upload with textures uploader message error about no textures availables. When I tried to upload without check textures box, upload good and could apply my textures in each face of the model.

 

Edited April 20, 2018 by Beggar Mayo
Forgot add pics and last explanation

[arton Rotaru]

On 20.4.2018 at 11:24 AM, Beggar Mayo said:

BTW, which you suggest could be the best height of walls for a building to give liberty to camera, considering that there are giant avatars in proportion?

Just checked on my mesh house, and it's 4 meters from floor to ceiling. My 10 years old prim house has 5 meters though.

[Beggar Mayo]

Hello, me again, almost with the same trouble. Help!

I am doing another experiment with this building, two entrances, a greenhouse. I am loosing my patience, what I am doing wrong that any change I do in the draw, always have triangules in the doors as you can see in the pictures. And when I upload, although I change to prim, can´t go inside the building? Maybe, do I missing some lines in the sketch or I have more lines than more or in wrong places?

I must say that the first time I uploaded the mesh I could go inside through the lateral door but not the back one and I forgot close the wall signed with an arrow (stairs are not included in the mesh). After I closed the wall, I couldn't use any of the doors.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Beggar Mayo

[ChinRey]

5 hours ago, Beggar Mayo said:

I am loosing my patience

That's ok. We've all been through that trying to learn how to make good mesh for Second Life.

 

5 hours ago, Beggar Mayo said:

I must say that the first time I uploaded the mesh I could go inside through the lateral door but not the back one and I forgot close the wall signed with an arrow (stairs are not included in the mesh). After I closed the wall, I couldn't use any of the doors.

Without knowing all the details and provided you made a good physics model and is uploading the whole thing as a single mesh, this should be a fairly simple one to fix: Stay away from the "Analizar" button! Alternatively, change the analyze mode from surface to solid (I don't know what it's named in Spanish, sorry) but really, a buildlike this is betetr off with unanalyzed physics anyway.

Edited April 24, 2018 by ChinRey

[Beggar Mayo]

6 hours ago, ChinRey said:

That's ok. We've all been through that trying to learn how to make good mesh for Second Life.

 

Without knowing all the details and provided you made a good physics model and is uploading the whole thing as a single mesh, this should be a fairly simple one to fix: Stay away from the "Analizar" button! Alternatively, change the analyze mode from surface to solid (I don't know what it's named in Spanish, sorry) but really, a buildlike this is betetr off with unanalyzed physics anyway.

Thx for you comment, ChinRey. I try to say away from the Analize button, but simply can't, because the viewer (anyone) can't upload if I don't use analize in first place, error message appears always (see pic 4). When I use "solid", the mesh is uploaded closed, and no matter if in edit window I change the character to prim (and is more heavy and expense), if I use "surface" the door I said can be walked, but not the other one, and not all the times and always appear that invisible triangles. Is anoying or I am so estupid!

Edited April 24, 2018 by Beggar Mayo
Add a pic missing

[ChinRey]

17 minutes ago, Beggar Mayo said:

Thx for you comment, ChinRey. I try to say away from the Analize button, but simply can't, because the viewer (anyone) can't upload if I don't use analize in first place, error message appears always (see pic 4).

Ok, you need to simplify your physics model a bit then. "Degenerate triangles" essentially means that there is a big difference int he sizes of the triangles in the physics model and you don't really need or want small triangles in it anyway.

Unfortunately, this is wehre SketchUp really falls through. All thsoe wasted triangle are a nuisance in the visual models since they icnrease the land impact and lag but in the physics model, they are downright fatal.

But you have to find a way to get rid of them. They are marked in black in the uploader preview, so they are easy to identify but I'm not sure if SketchUp is powerful enough to allow you to edit triangle by triangle.

[Beggar Mayo]

35 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Ok, you need to simplify your physics model a bit then. "Degenerate triangles" essentially means that there is a big difference int he sizes of the triangles in the physics model and you don't really need or want small triangles in it anyway.

Unfortunately, this is wehre SketchUp really falls through. All thsoe wasted triangle are a nuisance in the visual models since they icnrease the land impact and lag but in the physics model, they are downright fatal.

But you have to find a way to get rid of them. They are marked in black in the uploader preview, so they are easy to identify but I'm not sure if SketchUp is powerful enough to allow you to edit triangle by triangle.

I must say that me neither, don't know if "sketchup is powerful enough to allow you to edit triangle by triangle", but also I don't know how to do that in Blender. When I import the mesh to Blender I have to: 1)  join; 2) remove duplitated things; and 3) in edit mode again join (alt+J) to make triangles as squares, but not all triangules are changed or none of them. So, tinally I had to start again the building in Blender. I would love if I could draw like in Sketchup but with the rest of the tools that have Blender. The complication of Blender is not about how it works, but the way the tools and resourses are presented to the user. I hope Blender creators could understand that.

I will try and will share with you all a new experiment, building my house, not like a joint of big meshes, but piece by piece, wall by wall and see what happen. I hope that way this "degenerated triangles" can be controled. And another question I have, analize show colors, nice! But I don't know what it means each color. I ask this because you said "they are marked in black in the uploader preview", but when I take a look appears with other colors, as you can see in my pics.

[Chic Aeon]

I suggest you make something VERY VERY VERY simple in Blender. ONE door four walls and a ceiling (skip the floor) and get THAT to work and THEN MOVE ON.

And remember that we told you (and hundreds of other folks) that Sketchup just doesn't work in SL :D.

But now you know for sure and that is a good thing :D.

 

 

[Beggar Mayo]

On 24/4/2018 at 7:04 PM, Chic Aeon said:

I suggest you make something VERY VERY VERY simple in Blender. ONE door four walls and a ceiling (skip the floor) and get THAT to work and THEN MOVE ON.

And remember that we told you (and hundreds of other folks) that Sketchup just doesn't work in SL :D.

But now you know for sure and that is a good thing :D.

 

 

Thank you Chic, and every one. I will do what you suggested and following principaly many of your advises in your videos, but not only. And I will do something better without any intention to show my self as stubborn (although I am, jaja): I will do the same VERY VERY VERY simple model, door with wall, one wall, the same in Sketchup and in Blender, for practice both and show not which one is better or simple or complex, but to show the differences and coincidences and manners to do this, importing, exporting, even models made directly in SL grid download to convert in mesh, all this with the idea to help all of us what I am doing wrong and through my errors help me and all to understand the how to do and get some backgrund about. I am slow so, wait for my videos and then you can, again, pull my ears. I apologize from now, because I will do in my language, spanish. I hope you could understand them.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Beggar Mayo
Write sencences at the end.

[Beggar Mayo]

Well, me again, and here what I promised, I know is not the best, but the idea is to understand. Conclusions:

1) Despite technical and quality differences, both Skecthup and Blender are useful for creating mesh models to use in SL. Contrary to what some think, the simplicity of Sketchup makes it a good option, not the best, but not despicable.
2) Although some advise "do not use the analyze button" when uploading mesh models to SL in the window to do that, it is necessary to click on it, otherwise the mesh either does not work its physics or it fails to go up because of the internal geometry. By using the analysis button, the SL loader is allowed to use simplification.
3) The difference in cost and impact on the land is almost zero between what was created in Sketcup and Blender.
4) While Skecthup simultaneously generates the UV Map call, in Blender it must be set apart. This produces differences in the termination of the model.
5) Sketchup is simpler, although when passing the model by Blender to "clean it" we notice that it generates objects or unlinked and even double geometries.
6) Sketchup generates the mesh triangulation automatically, while Blender works with frames and triangles on the fly.

 

 

 

[Beggar Mayo]

Well, me again, and with another question related with all this issue.

Following your kind comments and advices I did a very simple mesh. But, apart of the conclusions I had after the experiments, I could notice another thing and I don't have any explanation. Why, sometimes, the "prim" option is lack in the edit window of the viewer (at least SL viewer and trying in beta, I don't try other way as you suggested)?

I decided to do my house piece by piece. Now, you ca see in the pic my "progress" and my... reggresion? The red mesh is the main door-wall and works perfect the physics following the steps I commented in my videos, following part of your advices. The green mesh is the next door with windows and a door, well this one its physics don´t work, simply can't walk trough the door and I can't change the character to "prim", because the option is lack there.

I read this link https://sites.google.com/site/tamaproducts/slmeshphysics, good tips, but are not useful in my case. Again, something I am doing wrong and I don't understand what, why, how, when, where.

 

Edited April 28, 2018 by Beggar Mayo
Grammar

[arton Rotaru]

10 hours ago, Beggar Mayo said:

Again, something I am doing wrong and I don't understand what, why, how, when, where.

If the option to set the physics to type Prim is missing, you did not specify a physics mesh at all during upload. You have to either load a custom physics mesh file, or choose one of the LOD options under the Physics tab of the importer.

The green door is made of more than one mesh. As can be seen at the yellow, and blue outlines. I suspect that is something that sketchup is doing during export. Splitting the mesh into multiple meshes. Another reason to stay away from Sketchup actually.

What might have happened is, even if you have a single custom physics mesh loaded during import, but the visual meshes are 2 meshes, you have only one mesh with specified physics, and one with none. Hence the missing Prim option for that mesh.

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, arton Rotaru said:

The green door is made of more than one mesh. As can be seen at the yellow, and blue outlines. I suspect that is something that sketchup is doing during export. Splitting the mesh into multiple meshes.

That is correct. SketchUp only operates with single face/material meshes. So if you several textures, it will split export each as a separate mesh.

[Chic Aeon]

Just a note about the analyze button. You USE analyse button when you PHYSICS MODEL is made from cubes. You DON'T analyze when your physics model is made from PLANES.  If you are not using a physics model but letting the uploader "make" the physics model (sometimes this actually works  fairly well and other times VERY disastrous) then you need to analyze (at least that has been my experience, I don't do that often). You do NOT need to analyze if you are making a an object that doesn't need much physics (a table for example or a bookcase). 

One other thing that isn't really your problem (at least I don't think so) is that it takes a little time for the PRIM option to appear as a choice in the build menu. I often have to try twice because I was faster than the server :D.  Just so you know that. 

Linksets rather than single mesh objects come with their own issues so best not to use them UNLESS there is a reason (like animating a many pieced object).