Questions of Commercial Ethics

[Persephone Emerald]

There may not be a clear answer to these questions, but I'd like to hear people's opinions.

I have 2 small shops, mostly selling simple items I've made myself.  I also collect alot of freebies & cheapies, some I bought, some from hunts, 7Seas fishing & group gifts. Sometimes these items are full perm, Copy/ Transfer or  Modify/Transfer. Sometimes I sell items to a yardsale, but lately I have items I want to sell in one of my shops. (It's in a RP sim & these items fit into the RP.) None of these items had terms stating not to resell them.

If I want to resell these, what is a fair price? If I give away freebies or sell them for $L 1, I'm not making a profit from someone else's work.  If I sell someone else's product for more than they sold it for, I don't think that's fair to the customer. If I sell someone else's product for less than they sold it for, is that fair to the creator?  If I recieved a product that's full perm, is it ethical to resell copies that are not full perm? If I modify someone else's freebie, should I still give it away for free or could I charge something because I've changed it?

What are your thoughts? 

[Cabbage Acanthus]

I have always thought that selling freebies is improper.  If nothing else, it would probably open a big ol' can of worms and cause you more grief than the lindens that you would gain would be worth.  It would be impossible to predict the original creator of each freebie's reaction.  Some won't care, others would completely lose their <bleeping> minds.  Even if you tracked down and got the permission and blessing of each freebie creator, the average passerby wouldn't know that.

The term "appearance of impropriety" comes to mind.  Even if you were "in the clear" you certainly would not look that way.  a lot of folks, including myself, would tend to assume that anyone that they saw selling known freebies is a bit of a sleezeball.  It would probably cause a lot more trouble than it is worth.

I have always felt that when I mod a freebie, the result should also be a freebie.  That is sort of a grey area there though.  I guess it would depend on how much of a change you made to the original.  If you made a significant enough change that your mod is essentially a new creation, then it would not be that much more effort to make a whole new one from scratch and avoid any future problems.

(edited to add:  I guess "dollarbies" (1 l$) freebie packs are ok or at least common enough as to not cause too many raised eyebrows. )

[Relm Foxdale]

I'm inclined to think that giving away someone else's freebies isn't that bad, although if that were someone's whole store, that'd be a little sad. I myself gave away a few things for Halloween. I figured it was either that or give out the SLM link to each item...it seemed to me at the time that it made zero difference whether they got it from me or the SLM. The creator was still listed. I guess they didn't get a "sale" record for it, though...but I kind of doubt most people who have freebies up check those records often. I never give a carp who takes my store freebies and don't track it.

Selling is another issue, though, even for $1. I know of someone who was selling dream-dance, for instance, a dance probably most people have from freebie boxes or friends. I also saw a pack of clothes on the SLM once that AFAIK was all freebies. Yet they were selling it for maybe $100, I forget. Some argue that those are to make up for the person's effort in putting it together, but holy moley, what effort? IMHO, you're better off not bothering if it's a big effort for you.

[Persephone Emerald]

I agree that I wouldn't want to sell someone else's freebies. On the otherhand, I have a box of notecards with LMs & low-prim furniture I've collected. Since I put some work into writng the notecards & sorting the furniture, & because I want to track how often people pick up this freebie pack, I've decided to try selling it for $L 1.  So far I haven't noticed anyone buy it, but that may be the result of low foot traffic around my shop.

[Amiryu Hosoi]

Reselling freebees is a no go zone. It is simply not done and very unfair the the original creator. Instead of thinking and posting about making money on other people's efforst you should create some items yourself and try to sell them.

Ami

[Persephone Emerald]

@ Amiryu Hosoi

Did you read my post? I do create my own products, but I also resell items I've collected & give away a few freebies.  When your inventory is full of items you don't want anymore, but you don't want to just delete them, reselling them is a fair option. Reselling a No Copy item at a yardsale in SL is no different than doing the same thing in RL. Some of the creators aren't even in SL anymore (such as Morbid Mausoleum), so deleting their items would be a waste when someone else might like them.

[SimonLeo Roelofs]

My opinion:

There is nothing wrong with selling freebies or other eoples products as long as the creator did not explicitly tell you not to.

And even then there is nothing they can do legally. They should have turned off the resell perms if they didn't want the object to be resold.

 

I know it is a big taboo in SL to (re)sell freebies but I don't understand that at all. It happens at fleemarkets in RL all the time. Why not in SL?

 

I also do not think it is unfair to the person buying. That person apearently thinks the object is worth it otherwise they would not have bought it.

[Luna Bliss]

While this isn't ethically wrong, for me it causes your store to seem a bit tacky.

[Persephone Emerald]

If I knew how to delete this thread right now I would. My questions aren't about reselling freebies, but everyone seems to think that's what I'm asking about. I'm not making a profit on other people's work. When I figure in the cost of rent on my shops, I'm not even making a profit on my own stuff. Having a shop gives me a place to sell things I make, so it's an incentive for me to create items. It also gives me a place to share freebies, advice & LMs with others.

I put some freebies in gifters. Anyone who wants them can keep clicking on the gifters to get as much free stuff as they like. Some of these items are No Copy, others are copyable. I also put out a box with LMs & advice. Inside this box I've added another box of low-prim furniture. I do this because many people in SL can't use alot of prims where they're living & free furniture is often too primmy.  For every modifiable item in this box I've changed the title to include how many prims it's made from, so people can see this information right from their Inventory. On a some pieces I've removed prims and/or changed textures. I'm not charging for this work. If I set the box for sale for $L 1, that's only so I can track more easily how often people pick it up.

Sometimes I buy items that I later decide I don't need. I also collect items from hunts, 7Seas fishing & group gifts.  When these items are Transferable, they are usually No Copy, but permissions very. If I spend 2 days fishing for an outfit with 30 No Copy pieces, I don't see anything wrong with reselling that outfit. If I spend 2 weeks hunting for items & end up with a few I can resell, I don't see anything wrong with reselling those either. The same goes for No Copy group gifts. I usually resell such items to a yardsale dealer, who buys them at a low enough price so she can make a small profit herself.  I figure she's doing a service for residents who need a little extra cash & for those who want a good deal on items they may not find elsewhere.

Now I have a 2nd shop in a small Steampunk RP sim.  I need to fill it with items that fit the sim & my character's role as a dealer in antiques & antiquities.  I don't want to just give away merchandise because that doens't make sense practically or in character. It makes sense for my character to resell items I've collected, just as a real antiques dealer would. I may rotate some of the items I've made myself, but I'm also going to change the No Copy items I have for sale. If people want to buy some of these things to decorate their own homes, that's great & it helps me pay rent on the shop.

This is why I was asking the questions above. Not because I'm trying to make money off other people's work.

 

[Amiryu Hosoi]

Just give the items away for free or delete, that is what I do. I can remember myself giving away the complete inventory of a building half a sim size. To give you an idea amongst countless items there were 40 chandeliers, total worth should have been around 50K or so. Btw deleting is a very good option, it keeps SL fresh.

Ami

[Darrius Gothly]

@Persephone: If I understand you correctly, here are my thoughts ...

 

1. Freebies, prizes, hunt gifts and the like - If you didn't make them and you didn't pay for them then IMO the most ethical course would be to tuck a Notecard in with them drawing attention to the original creator. Not only does it help folks find more of the same items from the same creator, but it doesn't accidentally give folks the impression you made them.
   
2. Items that are full perm - Generally not a good idea to pass these along as it tends to come off looking like a rip-off. Even though you didn't and your intentions are good .. it's the perception that can hurt you.
   
3. Pricing above or below original pricing - Again it "feels" tacky. And just in case, you might want to drop an IM or notecard to the original creator and ask their feelings. Some folks started out not realizing how permissions should be used and inadvertantly gave away things they now regret. It's not required, but it is classy.

Overall, I'd make sure the items are in a section clearly marked for and set aside for reselling others' creations. The more you can do to distinguish them from your stuff, the better for all involved ... again IMO.

 

[Blaze Nielsen]

But are they really "freebies"? How do you know the items were not copybotted and set to full perm? I spend hours a week tracking down my items that were copybotted and now being sold for pennies in yard sales. I dmca the sellers. If you get enough dmcas from selling or even giving away copybotted items, you can lose your account permanently. I've seen LOTS of accounts permanently disappear after multiple dmca filings on them. If you're giving stuff away you didnt create, you're risking a lot.

[Persephone Emerald]

@ Blaze, if the seller of resale items is selling at a yardsale they may not know the original perms of those items, much as a real world thrift store or pawn shop owner wouldn't know if some of their items were at some point stollen.

 

I've settled for myself what to do in this case. If I know items were orignally freebies, I give them away for free. If I bought something & remember what I paid for it, I sell it for the same price. If I don't know what I paid, I estimate its worth based on the price of similar items. If I fished or hunted for items, I also estimate their value based on the price of similar items.

I can't afford to give away $L1000s of lindens worth of things when I could get a little money back for them. I'm unemployed & make a conscious effort not to spend too much money in SL. Selling excess inventory means I have more lindens to spend, which I then pay to other residents in the form or purchases & donations. If I only aquired lindens buy purchasing them from Linden Labs, they would make all the profit, while the value of the items I had bought would be lost.

Imagine the sillyness of destroying RL products instead of reselling or recycling them, especially if one had used time to find them & real money to buy them. 

 

[Luna Bliss]

I realize you are trying to sort out the boundaries of how to package your freebies, but I am suggesting something else...and that is to stop obssessing about freebies altogether....the freebie mentality is cheapening SL, driving away many people to other grids, and making it very hard for content creators to earn compensation for their efforts.

While some comparisons can be drawn between SL and RL in many instances I don't think this is a case that works (your recycling analogy)...the economy in SL is just too different from RL in many respects so a valid comparison can't be drawn here for the most part.

Not that long ago if a person such as yourself worked hard they could earn a decent amount of money. Not so anymore, and a major factor contributing to this is the freebie frenzy...people are starting to expect everything to be free.

I don't believe we are really doing anyone any favor by giving out things for free - human beings by nature place value in what they earn through their efforts - we are made to grow, to learn, to achieve - and to then earn compensation for our talents. So when people are given free things they generally don't appreciate them. If they value getting everything for free they either have a criminal mentality and/or are remaining at the level of a suckling infant without capabilities - and we are fostering that mentality when we contribute to it through freebies.

I don't want SL to be known as a cheap, trivial freebie sucking game as opposed to the multi-faceted immersive world it once was. And I want content creators here to be able to earn some compensation for their efforts.

Please take into account that people who can afford the type of computer and high speed internet needed to access SL generally have SOME money. It is not uncommon for me to encounter people earning 100,000 dollars a month with their RL jobs yet some of these same people have expected me to work for them for pennies an hour on their projects.

I'm not saying the rights to give things away should be taken away - it's just good to remember that people generally don't appreciate something they didn't put their energy into (earning money through their efforts and subsequently buying what they need in life).  They may say they're appreciative if you give them something free, but deep down few are. I've noticed this with the sims I've created for others - the first ones to go were the ones that people paid me the least to create.

There are people who genuinely cannot afford much, and all the above does not refer to them. I donate entire sims to charity here and offer support in other ways as well, and we should all help people truly in need. But time and time again I have seen that it's more often us creators/merchants who are poor and not our customers.

[Chelsea Malibu]

 

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Persephone Emerald wrote:

 If I received a product that's full perm, is it ethical to resell copies that are not full perm? If I modify someone else's freebie, should I still give it away for free or could I charge something because I've changed it?

What are your thoughts? 

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A rather odd question as I would think this would be obvious but it clearly isn't.  We create freebies to promote our products or to provide something we want people to have because we feel it has no value.  Selling it to someone else is the oldest and sleaziest trick in SL.  There used to tons of this going on that has, over time diminished but if I found someone selling my freebie items, there would be very little I can do about this therefore, I do not offer full perm freebies anymore because of this very thing.

In short, it's completely up to you how you participate within this community but my advise is to never sell someone's work without their permission in writing.

Also keep in mind that if those freebie full perm items are actually stolen content, you can say goodbye to your account.