Is anyone using a projector ?

[bebejee]

Instead of a large screen monitor would you or are you using a projecter to view on a wall or a sheet/screen? how are the colours and sharpness in that case?

[Freya Mokusei]

I occaisionally used a short throw projector from Benq because it's hardcore to have a 133" display for Second Life. Unfortunately the bulb died a bit ago, and replacements cost more than the projection box. Given the average lifespan for a bulb is 3,000 - 5,000 hours of use (less than I spend in SL in a year), it didn't last long enough to be economically practical.

I was projecting onto a specially painted surface (not a screen), in a room with no windows. The colour was okay, surprisingly varied. The slight blur from diffusion meant I could run without AA (FPS++!), but wasn't enough to affect clarity. Afraid I have no pictures of this right now, but I'll hunt for some later and add them to the thread if you're interested.

Unfortunately another limiting factor was that - although it supports resolutions up to 1080p, most projectors do this by downsampling to 1024px horizontal. The small-size text the SL viewer used by default was difficult, and I had to hack around with a bunch of settings (and an external LSL editor) before I could stop squinting to read high-contrast text. Buying a projector that supports 1080p native (without downsampling) would be ridiculous.

Overall I'd say maybe 4/10 - very fun, but not brilliant for technical work or scripting, and the cost is prohibitive long-term. Now I use a very large flatpanel display and the lifespan of the hardware and general practicality of my setup is significantly better.

[bebejee]

Thanks that was very helpful, was seriousy considering going that route,it really sounds bad, sleaasmen would never tell you the truth.

[Freya Mokusei]

No problem!

If it wasn't so expensive to replace the consumable parts (the bulb) it would likely have done better. There really is no way to feasibly get a screen that large, and it was more crisp than I'd have expected a projection to be.

But yeah, only pretending to support 1080p was a real negative. Full 1080p projectors will cost you much much more than a flat panel display of the same size.

If you're interested, I now use a 60" plasma flat-screen by Samsung for Second Life. Aside from some screen-burn from the high-contrast SL UI (surprisingly, plasma's are still affected by this!), it's done pretty good for nearly three years. It's not quite as big, but it's been far cheaper and far better quality.

 

[Sassy Romano]

Question is too vague. Projectors vary in technology, quality and price.

 

 

[bebejee]

I was thinking of a basic projector, I know better exist, but if they have the same issue for the bulb its pointless.

[Magnus Brody]

Tried different projectors from work to see if any would be good, and even our super duper expensive one was a bit blurry.

In the end I replaced the middle of my three monitors with this 29" ultra widescreen and it's the best monitor I've used for sl. It's very immersive.

[Freya Mokusei]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

Question is too vague. Projectors vary in technology, quality and price.

 

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Very true. Environment makes a big difference too - the average home lounge with large panel windows will make projection quality dip significantly.

I did try to qualify that the projector I used was designed for private (home/casual) use. 133" would do fine at a small home showing, but it ain't IMAX. Really these are the only range where it can appear more cost-effective to buy a projector rather than a large flat panel.

Say maybe $600-700 for the projector, vs. maybe $1000-1500 for an equivilent panel display. Of course this is just out-lay price (I've already talked about consumables). I was fairly sure I'd be in the same pricerange as Bebejee, equivilent nerd-levels.

If you spent a bajillion dollars I'm sure you could make SL look very pretty (provided you avoided Mainland!), but it's certainly a curve in terms of affordability and practicality.

...A curve that panel displays tend to win.

[LookToTheSky]

I use the Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 2030. It's a great projector with 1080p and 3D capabilities. It looks good in a moderately lit room, and AMAZING in the dark. Blacks could be darker, but at this price it's worth way more than you pay. The best part is... bulbs are only $99.

[Freya Mokusei]

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LookToTheSky wrote:

I use the 

Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 2030

. ...

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Pretty nifty. I guess affordability on 1080p-native has improved since I got mine a couple of years ago - though it's still a small step higher in price. This is still a projector to bear in mind.

How long's your throw? Long throw vs. short is a bit tricky in some environments, and would've hindered screen size where I had mine set up.

[Madelaine McMasters]

I agree with everything you've said Freya. I have a true 1080p DLP projector. I use it to show movies in my barn during the summer to recapture the magic of seeing them out there when I was a child. At that time, we rented actual commercial films to play on an vintage (1916) 35mm Motiograph projector.

I tried the projector in my office and found it wanting. First, it has a fan. My iMac has one as well, but I rarely hear it. The projector sounds like a jet while it's running. That's fine if I'm flying my biplane in SL (where I can enjoy the incongruity), but not otherwise.

Second it's 1080p and my iMac is 1440p. My next Mac will either be 5K (iMac) or 4K (Mac Pro + 4K TV). You can get a good 55" HDTV for less than the cost of a 1080p projector. It'll make less noise, have a brighter picture, and require no fiddling with focus and keystone adjustments.

Projector contrast ratio is terrible unless the room lights are off, and then you may need an illuminated keyboard, or a small lamp to illuminate the keys during dark scenes. In small rooms, image contrast is poor even in the dark. That's because light spill from the projected image fills the room, and is reflected back onto the projection surface. My projector is 3200 lumens, the equivalent of four 60W lightbulbs. My office is normally illuminated by four... 60W (equivalent) lightbulbs.

The replacement bulb for my projector is about $250, and the rated life is 2000-3000 hours. The amortized bulb cost is more per hour than the energy to run it.

4K TVs are coming down in price. Those are more alluring to me than any projector.

[Freya Mokusei]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

First, it has a fan. My iMac has one as well, but I rarely hear it. The projector sounds like a jet while it's running. That's fine if I'm flying my biplane in SL (where I can enjoy the incongruity), but not otherwise.

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I'd forgotten about this, yeah. Even small fans will kick maybe 15-20dB, it'll be noticable unless you've some sound in the background. Projectors can routinely score upto 30-40dB - making them sound louder than a full tower PC with multiple fans, mostly because they're kicking so much heat around. My projector was on the quiet-side, but considering I moved my PC into another room to escape the fan sound... it kinda defeated the purpose.

Somewhere as big as a barn and you may not notice, but that heat can get difficult to deal with too. I am envious of the barn. My small spare bedroom would get awfully warm with a small crowd watching retro horror flicks.

Another very valid point in your post is the contrast ratio. Mine was 5000 lumens - acceptable in 'low' light, but I would most often use it in the dark because (1) I like the dark and (2) I can touchtype.

Really there are so many variables. Technology moves fast and considering that the max. resolution is essentially the pricing-bottleneck, it's very true to say that if you want to move with the times, buying a projector right now will likely turn you into a very expensive hostage in the imminent 2K/4K future.

Anyway, glad you liked my posts! Passing on the knowledge justifies the money i spent on my projector - the bulb suffered an early failure (most aren't designed for regular use) after less than 3000 hours.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

I am envious of the barn. My small spare bedroom would get awfully warm with a small crowd watching retro horror flicks.

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The barn truly is something to envy, it was built in 1870 or so. But you've captured the most important magic of my summer movie showings, which is sharing with friends. There is something special about projection, not because of any technological advantage over TV (there is none), but because of the scale of the sociality it infers. And it's out of the ordinary.

;-).

[LookToTheSky]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

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LookToTheSky wrote:

I use the 

Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 2030

. ...

---

Pretty nifty. I guess affordability on 1080p-native has improved since I got mine a couple of years ago - though it's still a small step higher in price. This is still a projector to bear in mind.

How long's your throw? Long throw vs. short is a bit tricky in some environments, and would've hindered screen size where I had mine set up.

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1.22 - 1.47 is the listed throw ratio, I get about 150" diagonal on wide zoom at around 14 ft distance.

[Freya Mokusei]

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LookToTheSky wrote:

1.22 - 1.47 is the listed throw ratio, I get about 150" diagonal on wide zoom at around 14 ft distance.

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Very nice! Sounds like you planned that perfectly. Congrats on the super-set up.

I could probably have gotten this if I'd done as planned and put a hole in my chimney. At present the breast gives me something like 10-12ft (I'm metriculated - 4m).

@Maddy - I'm still addicted to sharing my screen Mystery Science Theater style, hence the large panel. It's the only thing I couldn't do without when moving away from the projector.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

I'm still addicted to sharing my screen Mystery Science Theater style, hence the large panel. It's the only thing I couldn't do without when moving away from the projector.

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Once a summer I put together a movie evening, complete with lead in music, some shorts I select from YouTube, old Drive-In infographics, and then the main attraction, which I split in two for an intermission break...

I'm thinking of asking some of my community theater friends to help do something like this...

[EddyK Diesel]

I have a 46" LED Tv and 32" LCD tv the LED blows the LCD away.

I also have a projector and works great, although it will depend on the quality of the projector and what conections you are useing. But any hd projector really should work fine as long as your display resolution is correct.

[bebejee]

Nice, thanks for all replies, sticking to monitor/laptop for now, might go for a LED TV though later.

[Coby Foden]

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bebejee wrote:

Nice, thanks for all replies, sticking to monitor/laptop for now, might go for a LED TV though later.

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All the so called "LED TVs" sold and advertised today actually are LED back lighted LCD TVs.

Even though the manufactures and ads talk about LED TVs, there are no true LED TVs available for home use. I wonder what will true LED TVs (with no LCDs) be called if such come available some day?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED-backlit_LCD_display

 

Sony's true LED prototype TV:

http://www.cnet.com/news/sony-crams-6-million-leds-into-prototype-crystal-display/

 

[MissTeriMahn]

TrueLED TVs

Teri

((Obviously))

[Madelaine McMasters]

There are LED TVs in homes already, Coby. They're OLED.

OLEDs are LEDs, the difference is in their construction. Regular LEDs are made primarily from inorganic materials like silicon, gallium and aluminum. They're rigid, can't be made very large, can't be made with multiple colors on the same chip and don't integrate with materials and processes used to make the other structures needed for a display panel, like X/Y wiring and switching transistors.

Organic LEDs are made of polymers that can be integrated with other materials in structures that can span large areas, just liquid crystals (the LC of LCD). We can make thin film transistors (TFT) out of the same kind of polymers that made the OLEDs, and we can make conductors that way as well. And all of those things can be printed across large surfaces using processes akin to those used to make LCDs.

In a backlit LCD (whether backlit by regular LED or fluorescent tubes) the pixels are shutters that either block or pass light. The best LCD shutters do not block 100% of the light. So you can't really turn a pixel completely black. The degree to which you can block light sets the limit on dynamic range. This is why plasma and OLED TVs have pictures that "pop". The backlight may go to eleven, but the shutters don't go to zero.

The nifty advantage of O/LEDs over LCD is that when they're off, they emit no light. The disadvantage of OLEDs in comparison to LED backlit LCD is in lifetime, cost and luminous efficience (important for battery operated products like smartphones). OLED is improving on all fronts. My next TV/Monitor may be OLED.

ETA: Here's Best Buy's current selection of OLED TVs...

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/tvs/oled-tvs/pcmcat301000050010.c?id=pcmcat301000050010

ETA2: Samsung Galaxy phones use OLED displays, as do Apple Watches.

[Coby Foden]

Darn! I should have said ILED instead of LED!  :smileyvery-happy: :smileywink:

(I'm well aware of the difference between LED and OLED. My point was that there are no LED [iLED :smileywink:] TVs for home use available. At least I haven't seen any.)

I read somewhere that OLEDs still suffer from picture burn in, similar effect as in plasma and cathode ray tube displays.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Coby Foden wrote:

Darn! I should have said ILED instead of LED!  :smileyvery-happy: :smileywink:

(I'm well aware of the difference between LED and OLED. My point was that there are no LED [iLED :smileywink:] TVs for home use available. At least I haven't seen any.)

I read somewhere that OLEDs still suffer from picture burn in, similar effect as in plasma and cathode ray tube displays.

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ILEDs are not immune from image burn. Backlight LEDs and LED light bulbs have brightness lifetimes which arise from a mix of degradation in the phosphor overcoat and the underlying Blue/Violet LED. Inorganic Red, Green and Blue LEDS, like those you see used as power or status indicators on consumer products have finite lifetimes. CD/DVD/Blu-Ray player laser LEDs eventually degrade to the point where the player fails.

We don't generally notice the degradation of ILEDs/lasers over time because there's either sufficient guardband in their operation (as in CD players) to ensure proper operation for a reasonable service life, or because we don't notice that a lone LED is dimming over time. But, the moment you put a million LEDs together in a panel, if they don't all age at the same pace (and they won't because they're all being used for different amounts of time), you'll eventually notice it. The trick is to slow the degradation so that you discard the product for other reasons before image burn becomes an issue.

I think nearly every image display technology was notorious for image burn until it was improved to the point where something else was a bigger problem. CRT, LCD, Plasma, OLED, they all had image burn issues at some time. ILEDs have been around long enough they may have addressed that issue well enough before displays using the technology become popular.

But if OLED improves enough, there may be no market for ILED.