Response to JIRA STORM-1716 Mesh Deformer

[Nalates Urriah]

STORM-1716 - Mesh Deformer for tailoring mesh clothing. -- Response to Darien’s comments in the Deformer thread.

@Darien – You are not being accurate. 

I did not say everyone but me is uninformed or even that most here in 1716 are uninformed.  That is your inference and characterization. I said more and more people are chiming in that have not kept up with the project. I think that has stalled the Deformer project. 

Characterizing my comments as ‘uninformed drivel’ is a personal ad hominem attack. As Socrates said, “When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.” …and I’m called snarky. If you were challenging my point there are more chiming in that are not up on the project you would have addressed that point rather than try to prove I don’t know what I am talking about. Anyone can count the informed vs uninformed in the first half the thread and compare it to the last half. 

Let’s look at your claim of plenty of test garments. Initially several test items were submitted early to mid 2012. But, as the Deformer developed and new versions were tested fewer and fewer test items were updated. While you think there were enough, the Lab doesn’t and that is all that matters. All the signs are that most people lost interest.

The Initial test set provided to Oz and placed in Hippo Hollow consisted of:

1. [AD] -b- Skirt mesh DEFORM
2. [AD] -a- Half shirt mesh DEFORM
3. cn.deformer loose shirt female
4. Eli Spot – Deformer Test Skinsuit
5. Lluis Indigo (something)
6. LeeZu - Retro Meshtop rigged Deformer Test
7. Test Glove

Currently in Hippo Hollow the test set consists of:

1. Ambrosia Top – Green – Deformer
2. Cn12052012 slshape for deformer testing
3. Lenore- Pink – Defomer
4. Mesh Deformer Test Garments 01-08-12 (Ducknipple)
   1. Boatneck Sweater (Deformer)
   2. Boatneck Sweater (No Deformer)
   3. Flared Cuff Pants (Deformer)
   4. Flared Cuff Pants (No Deformer)
   5. Shorts (Deformer)
   6. Shorts (No Deformer)
5. Olyvia Dress – Print 1 – Deformer
6. Oversized Shirt Dress – Battle Cry – Deformer
7. Skirt + belts mesh  
8. TestGlove - May  3 2012
9. testGloveUpdate - Sep 26 2012
10. Vita Top – Purple - Deformer

Currently attached to the JIRA item are:

• 1 Arms tester  (dae) – 2 arms w/belts – 1,900 vertices & 3,200 faces
• 1 Corset (dae) – 8,000 vertices &
• 1 Turtle Neck (dae) -  8k+ verts and ?* faces - 3 mb file
• 1 Pair of jeans (dae) – 8,800+ verts and ?* faces
• 1 Tunic (dae) – won’t load in 2.65 or 2.66a
• Other attached files are copies of the basic avatar (.blend).
• dayane Coba offers a test item apparently no longer available in Langholm/26/45/231

*The Faces count is not showing in Blender. I suppose something is wrong with the Collada file’s export or import.

All of the Hippo Hollow test items currently do NOT work with the current project viewer. So, none of those are usable for testing. Only the items delivered as DAE files can be re-uploaded by the Lab or SL users/testers.

Of the 26± items 5 are usable and consider: The whole default SL avatar is just over 5,000 vertices and 8,500 faces/polygons. Domino’s avatar Blender file with hair, eyes, and skirt is 4.9mb.

I am not slamming the contributors of those dae files. But, they are high poly items. Plus AFAIK one cannot place all the LoD’s in one DAE file. So, only the high LoD is available. Do you REALLY think these are representative of what people are building and planning to sell? Or are examples of good practices for clothing design?

I think some will make these types of clothes. So, it is good to include them. But, many will build much more render efficient items. We do not have those available for testing.

For those reading that are not going to open the files and check them, the currently available dae files are nothing like what was previously submitted for testing, poly count-wise. They have thousandsmore vertices than most of what I see being sold now. So, while they are good test cases they do NOT provide a good range of test cases.

If you were a Linden making a decision that would affect SL for the rest of its future would you be satisfied with this limited sample? (that is rhetorical) The Lab/Oz isn’t. I wouldn’t be either.

So, no these are not PLENTY of test garments.

 

Community Responsibility

I do think the community by lack of participation has contributed to the current stalling of the Deformer project. Both the community and the Lab could have done things differently. But, the community has not ‘been there at every turn.’ Point by point:

• The community did hire Karl to write the code for the deformer. The community started a project the Lab did not want to take on. The Lab made no request of the community to start the project. They informed the community it would be some time before they would even consider such a project. So, the community took it on and they did stand tall. But, since then the community has pretty much abandoned the project, as the lack of test garment updates shows. They certainly did not put effort into it during the period Oz was asking for help and when we might have gotten something done. Besides, the project  has always only been of interest to a small minority of the SL people. Why would the Lab pursue that project with all the pressure from the greater community to fix and develop other things? Like bake fail. They take far more heat for that and it likley affects player retention far more then the lack of a Deformer. Priorites.
• TPV Dev’s did write some code and fix some bugs. But, the code still needs to be tested with a wide range of garments. The TPV Dev's did not take on the whole project to;  write code, build test garments, and do the testing. Nor write the reports and analysis that the LL management wants to make a decision. I sincerely applaud the TPV Dev’s help and give them their props. But, making it work for now and in the future is still a responsibility dumped on the Lab. And we have not provided adequate help or the right kind to the Lab in a timely manner to move the project forward... since its not moving.
• The community did write some wiki pages.
• The community did create some test garments. I’ve never denied that. I’ve listed what made it to the Lab and into the JIRA. My point, made repeatedly, is: those items were not updated when the Lab needed them updated. And to this date still have not been updated.
• The community, in the form of a few individuals, did provide feedback. But, they also piled on a ton of expectations for the Deformer that it would never be able to meet. The complaints about the mesh topology, weighting, and desire for a totally new avatar combined with an apparent lack of interest and unwillingness to help when needed, I think stalled the project. It got pushed into a ‘comprehensive’ review process. Sort of like a comprehensive US immigration law where nothing gets done.

I doubt you can make an actual case for my being deluded in these regards. You can disagree. But, the delusional comment is just more ad hominem drama used because you can’t refute my points.

To put ALL the blame on the Lab is much closer to delusional and certainly out of touch with the reality of what is going on. But, I’m open you refuting any of this…

I’ve taken the time to challenge your points because I think the idea of blaming it all on the Lab is counterproductive and factually inaccurate. I believe your position hinders development of the Deformer. Oz, to all appearances, has and is doing what he can. But, HE is not the Great and Powerful at LL... he even had to pay to see the movie. He has to work within the framework set by Rod and managment as part of a team.

While I beleive we have given the Lab most of the Deformer project, we have not removed the respnsibilities the Lindens have to the coorporation. Oz is not going to ignore those. Plus I am sure he knows no matter what the Lab does, the Lab will get yelled at. So, they will do their idea of doing it right. Those that can't help with that or understand it, create problems or at best noise and accomplish nothing.

[WhiteRabbit0]

I personally sent 3 test garmets to Oz via inworld notecard mail, as was requested on the official test garmet request page.  I don't think anyone has counted those and it is quite possible they were simply lost, along with countless others submitted via the same means.  To say that there is a dirth of test garments available currently to the public is a true statement, to say that that is all that were submitted is not.

[Darien Caldwell]

Sorry but your claims are fallicious. All of the attached items can be used with the latest version of the deformer. All of the items previously submitted can too, they only need to be re-uploaded with a newer version.

The fact is, you keep saying "LL Says it's not enough" but I have yet to actually see anyone but YOU say that. LL hasn't asked for garments since last year, when they received them. That requirement is over, and LL hasn't asked for more since. If LL wants more garments, I want to hear LL ask for them.

 

 

And what does the fact an item is low or high poly have to do with anything? That's what you do when you test you know, you try against all use cases, not just one specific case. I would expect low and high items to be submitted. It's immaterial to the biggest question, and only makes you seem even more ignorant.

 

I can only assume you're being a Linden Lab Shill, trying to place all the blame on the community for the fact that *LL* won't implement the deformer. You correctly pointed out the "respnsibilities the Lindens have to the coorporation". So tell me, how is the fact that LL is looking out for LL, the fault of the community? It's not. The fact LL is looking out for LL is LL's fault alone.

 

They do not want to implement the Deformer, so they continue to make up reasons not to. We could submit 1000 garments, and I guarantee, it would still not be *enough* or some new reason would be given. That sadly is the fact.

[Darien Caldwell]

Also just about everything in your list is pure garbage. I'll take them one by one:

Nalates Urriah wrote: 

 

• The community did hire Karl to write the code for the deformer. The community started a project the Lab did not want to take on. The Lab made no request of the community to start the project. They informed the community it would be some time before they would even consider such a project. So, the community took it on and they did stand tall. But, since then the community has pretty much abandoned the project, as the lack of test garment updates shows. They certainly did not put effort into it during the period Oz was asking for help and when we might have gotten something done. Besides, the project  has always only been of interest to a small minority of the SL people. Why would the Lab pursue that project with all the pressure from the greater community to fix and develop other things? Like bake fail. They take far more heat for that and it likely affects player retention far more then the lack of a Deformer. Priorites.

Wrong. As someone who sells Mesh items, I can tell you, the deformer is of high priority to EVERYONE in SL. Everyone is unhappy mesh doesn't fit them. Everyone doesn't want to pay extra for custom fitting. Everyone doesn't want to change their body shape to match every creator's items they encounter. *This* is the reality.   Things like bake fail, are very minor on the scale of SL issues these days. VERY. LL is going forward with the new baking system solely out of their own interests (thin clients, reduced bandwidth, reduced costs). It's not because of some big 'lets help the residents' motivation. if that were so, they would have done it years ago.  As you say, LL looking out for LL interests.

As well, it takes 0% of their capacity to put in the deformer. IT wasn't written by them! it was written by the community. It's complete, 100% done, and all they have to do is push compile. SO please, don't try to say "LL doesn't  have the bandwidth", that's just ignorant.

 

• TPV Dev’s did write some code and fix some bugs. But, the code still needs to be tested with a wide range of garments. The TPV Dev's did not take on the whole project to;  write code, build test garments, and do the testing. Nor write the reports and analysis that the LL management wants to make a decision. I sincerely applaud the TPV Dev’s help and give them their props. But, making it work for now and in the future is still a responsibility dumped on the Lab. And we have not provided adequate help or the right kind to the Lab in a timely manner to move the project forward... since its not moving.

Writing reports is an LL's employee's job, not the communities job. We can't do *everything* for them. I think we've done more than enough. If you're seriously going to try to say It's the community's fault LL doesn't have time to write  a report to their boss, well, Please... don't bother.

• The community did write some wiki pages.
• The community did create some test garments. I’ve never denied that. I’ve listed what made it to the Lab and into the JIRA. My point, made repeatedly, is: those items were not updated when the Lab needed them updated. And to this date still have not been updated.

Hmm, and yeah, funny that. I have yet to see LL make a single request for updated garments. Anywhere. Not on the blog, Not in the JIRA. Not even at Oz's meetings, which I've attended numerous times. SO where exactly is this info that LL wants updated garments coming from? I submitted garments, Nobody has IMed me asking for an updated copy. So to me, that says they don't need one.

• The community, in the form of a few individuals, did provide feedback. But, they also piled on a ton of expectations for the Deformer that it would never be able to meet. The complaints about the mesh topology, weighting, and desire for a totally new avatar combined with an apparent lack of interest and unwillingness to help when needed, I think stalled the project. It got pushed into a ‘comprehensive’ review process. Sort of like a comprehensive US immigration law where nothing gets done.

There's always people with inflated expectations. If that stopped anything from happening, SL would never have got out of beta. LL is fully capable of doing what they always do in such citations, Ignore people, and push ahead. THAT certainly isn't stopping this.

Again you say the "Unwillingness to help" lie. Show me ONE instance where LL asked for something, and it was denied. And again, I say LL asking, not you putting words in their mouth. that Definitely doesn't count.

 

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[Medhue Simoni]

Nalates, test clothing doesn't matter. The Lindens didn't make any of the meshes, so handing a mesh to a Linden to test is not a good way to test the deformer, as the Linden didn't make it. Only the creator of a mesh can evaluate the deformer properly. The creator is the only person that knows all the relevant information to test the deformer properly. All a Linden can do is make an observation.

So, the whole test clothing cries are all just BS. I find it amazing that the Lab doesn't have 1 person who can make a mesh in their whole company. What is more likely, is that LL doesn't want the deformer in the viewer and is just making up excuses to stall or halt it.

[WhiteRabbit0]

Actually it isn't beyond the realm of belief right now that LL does NOT in fact have any staff remaining that are capable of dealing with the deformer and testing said deformer.  A substantial amount of LL's staff has been diverted off of SL and is now busy working on their myriad of other games / projects.

Corperations compartmentalize stuff, and it is fully possible that LL has simply deemed that SL is no longer relevant enough to dedicate their most experienced personel to.  The mesh deformer and many other projects may well have simply been put on hold until their one or two people who can actually implement them into the standard viewer finish up on their Patterns duties or some such.

Of course "your game no longer is profitable enough for us to care" isn't an answer that is publically acceptable, thus the silence until there's enough of an uproar that someone in management finally moves a finger.  I really do wish though that we weren't stuck second guessing and begging for scraps of information about what might be.

Nalates does a fantastic job of communicating all information that LL danes is fit for us.  But I have never had a 3rd party blog site be the ONLY source of information about a web service before.  There has always been an active website with  public forums in which the official developers and community managers posted all information and handled all questions.  I regularly post on the forums for other companies, such as Riot, and in the past Blizzard, both of which I've had the pleasure of having my advice heeded, changes made, and responses posted by official employees regarding my concerns and recommendations.

[Ciaran Laval]

Agreed on the commuications, if you check the tools and technlogy blog you can see how updates and information have slowed to a crawl over the last couple of years, they used to give us more information:

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Tools-and-Technology/bg-p/blog_technology

[Nika Talaj]

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WhiteRabbit0 wrote:

Actually it isn't beyond the realm of belief right now that LL does NOT in fact have any staff remaining that are capable of dealing with the deformer and testing said deformer.  A substantial amount of LL's staff has been diverted off of SL and is now busy working on their myriad of other games / projects....

Of course "your game no longer is profitable enough for us to care"....

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A couple of things in this thread are very sad.  One is that no-one seems to have enough contact with LL to know whether the above statements are true, or wildly off the mark.  It is hard for me to believe that Patterns, Creatorverse, dio and Versu all together comprise any significant amount of revenue, but who really has any clue?  Even though LL has been letting sims dribble away, I would guess SL's still the lion's share of their revenue.

 

Certainly the SL project is lightly staffed.  But when I look at LL's job openings, it is clear that they are hiring for SL, if they can.  For sure, if I were in the market, I'd rather work on SL than the rest of their dumbed-down products!  But reading the job descriptions, it doesn't seem like they're looking for top-notch people.  A program manager for SL with just 5 years experience and a bachelors?  Seriously? 

 

On the the second sad thing.  To see Darien and Nalates swinging at each other, to the point of insults being thrown, is just heartbreaking.  You're both such terrific contributors.

[Melissa Yeuxdoux]

If I may ask, what exactly is "the community"? If it's SL users in general, I suspect, though I don't know, that the majority of them are consumers, not builders. Not that there's anything wrong with that... but to contribute to the cause, you don't just have to be a builder, but one who is adept at creating meshes. (I hope their tribe will increase, but as this drags on, hope is fading.) Nonetheless, those aware of the mesh deformer are, I also suspect, highly interested in it, having found that without it, mesh clothes makers might as well put up a sign reading "Procrustes's Mesh Clothing," because it's utterly impractical to fill out the combinatorial explosion needed to fit everyone. 

[Laura Demme]

I personally don't know anyone who is happy with the standard sizing system. Mainly because it's not really standard anyway. My avvie is a petite, but realistic height of 5'9". And I've had to wear sizes from XS to XL depending on the maker. And quite often none of the sizes fit. I've tried on XL skirts that cut right into my waist. The deformer would be absolutely huge for the fashion industry in SL.

[Ashasekayi Ra]

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Darien Caldwell wrote:

The fact is, you keep saying "LL Says it's not enough" but I have yet to actually see anyone but YOU say that. LL hasn't asked for garments since last year, when they received them. That requirement is over, and LL hasn't asked for more since. If LL wants more garments, I want to hear LL ask for them.

 

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QFT

I wish I could hit agree on this statement 100 times. The "it's the communities fault for not doing enough.... not wanting it enough" misinformation is getting beyond tedious at this point. The unpaid community of designers, coders and consumer testers have done their part. If LL needs something else from the community to get this project off the ground, an employee from the company needs to explain what is needed through an official channel. At this point, this whole issue is clouded by rumor and hearsay.

As Darien said, if the actual hold up is test garments (which I don't believe it is), an LL official needs to state that now. Either way, any official word through an official channel on the status of this project would be helpful.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Nika Talaj wrote:

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On the the second sad thing.  To see Darien and Nalates swinging at each other, to the point of insults being thrown, is just heartbreaking.  You're both such terrific contributors.

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It doesn't surprise me. Nat has a history of defending the Lab and blaming the customers. On rare occasions, it is warranted, but not to the extent that she does it, IMHO.