Avatar sizes

[Phil Deakins]

I'll do that experiment and let you know. This is serious scientific work, y'know, but I won't mind if you do the experiment yourself and publish your paper before me.

[Coby Foden]

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16 wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Yes it makes it easier to create 1:1 in an external programme, but it makes it harder to actually use in SL

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jejejejejje (:

be quite hard in RL as well i think. if you had 2 telescopes stuck the wrong way round on your eyes (:

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Now I understand why Phil wants to make everything - except land - so big in SL.  :smileytongue:  :smileywink:

     ... not the right way, really?

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

Everything? You haven't tried my smaller sofas and armchairs yet. And I've been sitting here watching to see if you show up again

[Phil Deakins]

I just did a check on something that's been mentioned a few times - the Edit Appearance measurements compared to prim measurements - and I found that what people have said is true.

I made a 1.8m high prim, which is the very near equivalent of 6'.

Then I adjusted my avatar's height to match the prim's height but found that the avatar's height, as stated in the Editing Shape box (official V3 viewer), is 1.67m. Converting that to feet and inches, it's *5' 5.75", which is nowhere near 6'.

*With the male avatar, I couldn't get its height as low as the prim's 1.8m. Its height is as low as it will go but it's still slightly above the prim so, in reality, it's probably slightly under 5'5".

So, even if we want to make things in SL to be the same size as things in RL, which size do we use? If we make the avatar height (in meters), as stated in the shape/appearance editor, the same as the actual RL meter height, it will be a long way off. But if we use 3rd party programmes to make SL furniture the same sizes as RL, the avatar height would need to be significantly taller than the editor's stated height. The sensible thing would be to use a prim's measurement and estimate the avatar's height.

It all makes the idea of creating for RL sized avatars somewhat inconsistent. One creator might use the avatar's height according to the shape editor to guage furniture sizes, because that's what most people in SL would use, and another creator might use the avatar height according to a prim to guage the furniture, because reasonably exact RL furniture sizes could be produced.

Because LL has screwed up those measurements, there wouldn't be any consistency if everyone tried to make sizes in SL match RL sizes. The best way, imo, is what has actually happened - SL sizes of avatars and other things evolved according to the conditions in the SL world.

[Coby Foden]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I just did a check on something that's been mentioned a few times - the Edit Appearance measurements compared to prim measurements - and I found that what people have said is true.

So, even if we want to make things in SL to be the same size as things in RL, which size do we use? If we make the avatar height (in meters), as stated in the shape/appearance editor, the same as the actual RL meter height, it will be a long way off.

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Linden Lab viewer shows what is called "Agent Height".  This agent height is shorter than actual avatar mesh is, as you verified by measuring the avatar with prim.There are some viewers, HUDs, and scripted prims which have a correction factor, they use the "Agent Height" and add the correction factor, thus getting very close to the real avatar mesh height.  (Beware though, there are lots of measuring devices which use the "Agent Height" without correction factor).

However,  the only exact accurate way to measure the avatar mesh height is doing it by prim.

Linden Lab is aware of this matter, there is even a JIRA:

 

Incorrect height information in appearance editor

 

Status: Aknowledged

Resolution: Unresolved

So, in order to make avatar the same size as in RL, we will measure avatar height with prim - so far until Linden Lab gets the appearance editor changed so that instead of "Agent Height" it will show the real mesh height.

[Phil Deakins]

That JIRA was created more than 2½ years ago, so it's not something that's likely to be fixed, even though the first response, on the same day, was from linden who said he'd like it to be fixed, and requested discussion for that purpose.

[161488303349]

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Coby Foden wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I just did a check on something that's been mentioned a few times - the Edit Appearance measurements compared to prim measurements - and I found that what people have said is true.

So, even if we want to make things in SL to be the same size as things in RL, which size do we use? If we make the avatar height (in meters), as stated in the shape/appearance editor, the same as the actual RL meter height, it will be a long way off.

---

Linden Lab viewer shows what is called "Agent Height".  This agent height is shorter than actual avatar mesh is, as you verified by measuring the avatar with prim.There are some viewers, HUDs, and scripted prims which have a correction factor, they use the "Agent Height" and add the correction factor, thus getting very close to the real avatar mesh height. 

(Beware though, there are lots of measuring devices which use the "Agent Height" without correction factor).

However,  the only exact accurate way to measure the avatar mesh height is doing it by prim.

Linden Lab is aware of this matter, there is even a JIRA:

 

Incorrect height information in appearance editor

 

Status: Aknowledged

Resolution: Unresolved

So, in order to make avatar the same size as in RL, we will measure avatar height with prim - so far until Linden Lab gets the appearance editor changed so that instead of "Agent Height" it will show the real mesh height.

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on the Jira they all start rabbit on about change the AgentHeight function itself. then worry all about what might get broken and then end up do nothing

is quite frustrating when linden overcomplicate things. same the residents who join into those kinds of discussions. they all end up paralyse themselves when they do this

is a cosmetic fix only needed. which can do in the viewer code

all they have to do is take Agent Height as report by the existing function and multiple by 1.17 and show that value on the label in the shape editor. then the shape editor value will be the same as the prim value

the fact that Agent Height function reports a different height to the avatar mesh height is not the point. the point is that the reported shape editor value should be the same as the reported prim height value. dunno why they dont seem to understand that

 

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

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16 wrote:

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Coby Foden wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

I just did a check on something that's been mentioned a few times - the Edit Appearance measurements compared to prim measurements - and I found that what people have said is true.

So, even if we want to make things in SL to be the same size as things in RL, which size do we use? If we make the avatar height (in meters), as stated in the shape/appearance editor, the same as the actual RL meter height, it will be a long way off.

---

Linden Lab viewer shows what is called "Agent Height".  This agent height is shorter than actual avatar mesh is, as you verified by measuring the avatar with prim.There are some viewers, HUDs, and scripted prims which have a correction factor, they use the "Agent Height" and add the correction factor, thus getting very close to the real avatar mesh height. 

(Beware though, there are lots of measuring devices which use the "Agent Height" without correction factor).

However,  the only exact accurate way to measure the avatar mesh height is doing it by prim.

Linden Lab is aware of this matter, there is even a JIRA:

 

Incorrect height information in appearance editor

 

Status: Aknowledged

Resolution: Unresolved

So, in order to make avatar the same size as in RL, we will measure avatar height with prim - so far until Linden Lab gets the appearance editor changed so that instead of "Agent Height" it will show the real mesh height.

---

on the Jira they all start rabbit on about change the AgentHeight function itself. then worry all about what might get broken and then end up do nothing

is quite frustrating when linden overcomplicate things. same the residents who join into those kinds of discussions. they all end up paralyse themselves when they do this

is a cosmetic fix only needed. which can do in the viewer code

all they have to do is take Agent Height as report by the existing function and multiple by 1.17 and show that value on the label in the shape editor. then the shape editor value will be the same as the prim value

the fact that Agent Height function reports a different height to the avatar mesh height is not the point. the point is that the reported shape editor value should be the same as the reported prim height value.

dunno why they dont seem to understand that

 

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They probably do but they probably prefered to do nothing and, because the users did what you said, they used it as the reason for doing nothing.

[Czari Zenovka]

I could have sworn this was the thread where Coby posted a photo of her standing next to one of your kitchens, but now I can't find it.  Anyway...

As a bit of background:  When I began SL in 2007 I wanted my avatar to resemble me RL as far as my height, hair color, eye color, etc.  In RL I am 5'10" (1.778 meters) and wanted my avatar to be tall in SL as well.  I spent some time tweaking my shape and using the measuring tool at The Free Dove, making my avatar the same height I am in RL.  ACK!  I suddenly found myself the Lilliputian in the Land of Amazons.  This wouldn't do!  Thus my introduction to "Why SL measurements don't reflect RL."  I increased my avatar's height.  I was never the tallest female avatar around - those were usually the ones with stick legs, no waist, and watermelon breasts, but at least I felt more like "me."

Over the years this avatar shape worked well for me.  I did create a second shape that was a bit shorter for those handful of times I found myself dancing with a shorter male avatar, but even the "shorter" shape wasn't real short, plus I wear heels 99% of the time.  I was never the tallest avatar in a large group; in fact sometimes I looked a bit on the short side by comparison.  At dance clubs I was often IM'd by men to say it was refreshing to see a female avatar that was proportioned and not stick thin.

Somewhere along the line female avatars seemed to get shorter and no one told me....lol.  I had taken a 6-month break from SL last year and, after returning, stayed primarily on my parcel while building and being a general hermit.  Anytime I did venture out - generally to go dancing - I was still in the "average" range of female avatars.  But then a strange thing happened - individual avatars who came to visit were usually a LOT shorter than mine.  Ok, even in 2007 there were the handful of avatars who preferred to be closer to their RL height, thus being what looked "short" in SL measurements, but the current status seemed to be a trend.  This thread appeared around that time.

Last night I went to a small, family-type club where I know some of the people from years ago.  I switched to my shorter avatar when asked to dance by a male avatar who was on the short side, then began noticing several of the female avatars were shorter as well.  Interestingly, one female avatar who was similar to my height joined SL in 2007 as well.  I asked in general chat if there was some current trend for avatars to be shorter.  One woman responded, "Well yes and no...they are now the right size" which, of course could lead to a whole other discussion on what is "right."  Thus began a discussion about what initially caused the oversized avatars due to camera angle/view with the necessity of oversized builds, etc.  Pretty much the same discussion as on this thread.  Someone even mentioned that 1920's Berlin is scaled closer to real life measurements.

After leaving the club, I headed to your store to see how I "measured up" next to your kitchens after having seen Coby's photo.  I'm apparently the size for whom your kitchens were built:

As this thread has demonstrated, people have differing views of "correct" avatar height.  My next "research" into this issue will be to go to my regular jazz club haunt (where a year ago I was generally shorter than most female avatars) to see if that has changed en masse.

I had a great time visiting your store, Phil; it was like a stroll down memory lane.  Yours was one of the very first stores where my former partner and I shopped when looking for furniture for our new home in late 2007. 

Sidenote:  It just dawned on me that when I get a new PC, all photos I have posted from my HD will go poof.  I uploaded this photo to Photo Bucket but couldn't figure out how to get the photo to display rather than a link.  Any help with this is greatly appreciated.

 

[Czari Zenovka]

Bump to push down the spam (and because I hope Phil reads this).

[Perrie Juran]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

 

Sidenote:  It just dawned on me that when I get a new PC, all photos I have posted from my HD will go poof.  I uploaded this photo to Photo Bucket but couldn't figure out how to get the photo to display rather than a link.  Any help with this is greatly appreciated.

 

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I'm puzzled by this statement?  They shouldn't / wont go poof from here.

And backing up and copying photos to your new computer would be pretty simple.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

 

Sidenote:  It just dawned on me that when I get a new PC, all photos I have posted from my HD will go poof.  I uploaded this photo to Photo Bucket but couldn't figure out how to get the photo to display rather than a link.  Any help with this is greatly appreciated.

 

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I'm puzzled by this statement?  They shouldn't / wont go poof from here.

And backing up and copying photos to your new computer would be pretty simple.

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I've had this happen before:  I upload photos to a website directly from my hard drive, then when that hard drive is replaced or crashes, so do all the photos since they were linked to a specific location on that drive.

I will, of course, be backing up all my files for my new PC but, I *think* I would then have to go back and re-upload all the photos since they are now on a new hard drive.  If not that would be great.

Especially on blogs I see photos that are linked to a photo-hosting site.  I use PhotoBucket which provides several ways to link a photo to various websites, but when I tried on this post It just displayed the link, not the photo.  It might be a PhotoBucket thing and other photo-hosting sites are different.  Basically looking for a way to post photos that are located on a server.

ETA: Just thought of something - when I upload a photo from my HD to here, is the photo then part of the forum servers?  The situation I had years ago when a bunch of my photos went "poof" from a website was because I was storing them on my ISPs FTP server which was then discontinued. 

 

[Coby Foden]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

I could have sworn this was the thread where Coby posted a photo of her standing next to one of your kitchens, but now I can't find it.

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Funny I cannot find that post either.

Some ghost has eaten it. Anyway, the picture was this one:

 

I'm 1.78 meters tall (measured by prim) in that picture.

[Perrie Juran]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

 

Sidenote:  It just dawned on me that when I get a new PC, all photos I have posted from my HD will go poof.  I uploaded this photo to Photo Bucket but couldn't figure out how to get the photo to display rather than a link.  Any help with this is greatly appreciated.

 

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I'm puzzled by this statement?  They shouldn't / wont go poof from here.

And backing up and copying photos to your new computer would be pretty simple.

---

I've had this happen before:  I upload photos to a website directly from my hard drive, then when that hard drive is replaced or crashes, so do all the photos since they were linked to a specific location on that drive.

I will, of course, be backing up all my files for my new PC but, I *think* I would then have to go back and re-upload all the photos since they are now on a new hard drive.  If not that would be great.

Especially on blogs I see photos that are linked to a photo-hosting site.  I use PhotoBucket which provides several ways to link a photo to various websites, but when I tried on this post It just displayed the link, not the photo.  It might be a PhotoBucket thing and other photo-hosting sites are different.  Basically looking for a way to post photos that are located on a server.

ETA: Just thought of something - when I upload a photo from my HD to here, is the photo then part of the forum servers?  The situation I had years ago when a bunch of my photos went "poof" from a website was because I was storing them on my ISPs FTP server which was then discontinued. 

 

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yes, they are saved on the forum servers.

the pictures diasappearing  from a web site had nothing to do with your computer.

[161488303349]

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Coby Foden wrote:

 

 

 

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o.m.g. !!!!

is another one of them midgets. they all over the place these days. whatever are we ever going to do. the sqwiddy little rodents are taking over. and breeding. like mice !!! o.m.g. !!!! we is so doomed

 

(:

 

+

i quite like the skirt btw. is mesh yes? looks like it

 

[Czari Zenovka]

That *is* weird about the photos poofing.  Thank you for reposting them. 

So your avatar height is my RL height *which might be off a bit if SL meters are not the same as RL meters) and when I first started SL and made my avatar the same as my RL height, I was way shorter than the female avatars I saw.

I haven't measured my current AV in a long time but I would say I'm probably in the over 6'  close to 7' RL height range.  I was in a group of people today - male and female avatars - and noticed that the taller female avatars began SL in 2006/2007 while smaller avatars had later join dates.  Of course there were some smaller avs that had join dates of 2008/2009 so I'm thinking their preference was either to be smaller to begin with or they scaled down over time.

I haven't made it to Frank's yet to see what the average height of female avatars are there.  The reason I chose Frank's is that, at least as of 6 months ago, I was on the mid-range to short height compared to female avatars there.

I may work on scaling mine down a bit.  I like being tall, but I don't want to look like the lone freak in a room...lol.

Edit: Thought about height again and changed my theory on how tall my avatar is.

[Czari Zenovka]

Whew!  Then I don't need to fool with uploading photos to photo sites then posting them here...unless (and I never thought about this) is there any security risk in doing so, like someone being able to find their way onto my HD via a posted pic?

Of course I never worried about it before...lol.

[Dillon Levenque]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

Whew!  Then I don't need to fool with uploading photos to photo sites then posting them here...unless (and I never thought about this) is there any security risk in doing so, like someone being able to find their way onto my HD via a posted pic?

Of course I never worried about it before...lol.

---

 

Czari, they hacked the Pentagon's computers. So the simple answer to  your question is yes, they can find their way onto your HD. I don't know of an easy way to do that from your images (although depending on how you send images to the web there can be things learned that are not intended to be public). You'll need a  more security savvy person to respond (what network experience I have is mostly regarding the network behind the firewall, so I am not even close to clued in about what happens on the sharp end) regarding ways to trace images back. People CAN get RL info from your images (if an RL account posted them). If you want to worry about something worry about that.

Just based on my personal experience, there are two ways to protect yourself online.

1) Never post anything anywhere anytime that you wouldn't be happy sharing with your grandmother.

2) If Option 1 is no longer available: Do not run for public office.

[Coby Foden]

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16 wrote:

 

o.m.g. !!!!

is another one of them midgets. they all over the place these days. whatever are we ever going to do. the sqwiddy little rodents are taking over. and breeding. like mice !!! o.m.g. !!!! we is so doomed

(:

+

i quite like the skirt btw. is mesh yes? looks like it

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Shh... we are silently and sneakily trying to overtake the whole grid.

The amazons will be totally taken by sudden surprise.  Don't tell anybody.

:smileyvery-happy: :smileytongue:

Yes, the skirt is mesh.  Cleverly made so that one cannot see (not even upskirters) the horrible void created by alpha mask.

[161488303349]

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Coby Foden wrote:

Yes, the skirt is mesh.  Cleverly made so that one cannot see (not even upskirters) the horrible void created by alpha mask.

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i was wonder about that bc of the fit. even just looking at the pic. is not many i seen made that well made fit. they getting better tho lots of the mesh designers.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

Whew!  Then I don't need to fool with uploading photos to photo sites then posting them here...unless (and I never thought about this) is there any security risk in doing so, like someone being able to find their way onto my HD via a posted pic?

Of course I never worried about it before...lol.

---

 

Czari, they hacked the Pentagon's computers. So the simple answer to  your question is yes, they can find their way onto your HD. I don't know of an easy way to do that from your images (although depending on how you send images to the web there can be things learned that are not intended to be public). You'll need a  more security savvy person to respond (what network experience I have is mostly regarding the network behind the firewall, so I am not even close to clued in about what happens on the sharp end) regarding ways to trace images back. People CAN get RL info from your images (if an RL account posted them). If you want to worry about something worry about that.

Just based on my personal experience, there are two ways to protect yourself online.

1) Never post anything anywhere anytime that you wouldn't be happy sharing with your grandmother.

2) If Option 1 is no longer available: Do not run for public office.

---

Which brings me back to - is there some photo storing program that allows one to post photos directly within this forum instead of a link to it?  With all the choices PhotoBucket provides I would think one of those would accomplish this.  I admit I didn't check them all out.  When there are less people on the forums I will do a test check.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

Czari, if you want to save your pics from your old computer and be able to get them back on your new comp without using usb storage or CD, and without sharing them on a public server, there is a simple solution : 

send them to you by emails. you can even not send them but just save your emails with the pics as rough copy in your mailbox. 

That way, you open your mailbox from your new comp and can download back all your pics. 

Its simple, quick and you wont share your pics with anyone, except on your mailbox provider server what is normally done for being private. :smileyhappy:

[Reikokimyo]

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16 wrote:

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Coby Foden wrote:

 

 

 

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o.m.g. !!!!

is another one of them midgets. they all over the place these days. whatever are we ever going to do. the sqwiddy little rodents are taking over. and breeding. like mice !!! o.m.g. !!!! we is so doomed

 

(:

 

+

i quite like the skirt btw. is mesh yes? looks like it

 

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I take offence to being likened to a rodent (as tasty as they are).  Yes, we short people are taking over (but keep it quiet for now).

 

/me struts off, tail high in the air.

[Phil Deakins]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

I could have sworn this was the thread where Coby posted a photo of her standing next to one of your kitchens, but now I can't find it.  Anyway...

As a bit of background:  When I began SL in 2007 I wanted my avatar to resemble me RL as far as my height, hair color, eye color, etc.  In RL I am 5'10" (1.778 meters) and wanted my avatar to be tall in SL as well.  I spent some time tweaking my shape and using the measuring tool at The Free Dove, making my avatar the same height I am in RL.  ACK!  I suddenly found myself the Lilliputian in the Land of Amazons.  This wouldn't do!  Thus my introduction to "Why SL measurements don't reflect RL."  I increased my avatar's height.  I was never the tallest female avatar around - those were usually the ones with stick legs, no waist, and watermelon breasts, but at least I felt more like "me."

Over the years this avatar shape worked well for me.  I did create a second shape that was a bit shorter for those handful of times I found myself dancing with a shorter male avatar, but even the "shorter" shape wasn't real short, plus I wear heels 99% of the time.  I was never the tallest avatar in a large group; in fact sometimes I looked a bit on the short side by comparison.  At dance clubs I was often IM'd by men to say it was refreshing to see a female avatar that was proportioned and not stick thin.

Somewhere along the line female avatars seemed to get shorter and no one told me....lol.  I had taken a 6-month break from SL last year and, after returning, stayed primarily on my parcel while building and being a general hermit.  Anytime I did venture out - generally to go dancing - I was still in the "average" range of female avatars.  But then a strange thing happened - individual avatars who came to visit were usually a LOT shorter than mine.  Ok, even in 2007 there were the handful of avatars who preferred to be closer to their RL height, thus being what looked "short" in SL measurements, but the current status seemed to be a trend.  This thread appeared around that time.

Last night I went to a small, family-type club where I know some of the people from years ago.  I switched to my shorter avatar when asked to dance by a male avatar who was on the short side, then began noticing several of the female avatars were shorter as well.  Interestingly, one female avatar who was similar to my height joined SL in 2007 as well.  I asked in general chat if there was some current trend for avatars to be shorter.  One woman responded, "Well yes and no...they are now the right size" which, of course could lead to a whole other discussion on what is "right."  Thus began a discussion about what initially caused the oversized avatars due to camera angle/view with the necessity of oversized builds, etc.  Pretty much the same discussion as on this thread.  Someone even mentioned that 1920's Berlin is scaled closer to real life measurements.

After leaving the club, I headed to your store to see how I "measured up" next to your kitchens after having seen Coby's photo.  I'm apparently the size for whom your kitchens were built:

As this thread has demonstrated, people have differing views of "correct" avatar height.  My next "research" into this issue will be to go to my regular jazz club haunt (where a year ago I was generally shorter than most female avatars) to see if that has changed en masse.

I had a great time visiting your store, Phil; it was like a stroll down memory lane.  Yours was one of the very first stores where my former partner and I shopped when looking for furniture for our new home in late 2007. 

Sidenote:  It just dawned on me that when I get a new PC, all photos I have posted from my HD will go poof.  I uploaded this photo to Photo Bucket but couldn't figure out how to get the photo to display rather than a link.  Any help with this is greatly appreciated.

 

---

Hi Czari.

First, your photos here won't poof when you change you computer. When you post a picture from you hard drive, it gets uploaded as you can see if you right click the picture, click Properties, and look at its URL.

Next. I'm amazed that you, or anyone, remembers name of people who post things. I remember Coby's picture but I wouldn't have remembered who it was who posted it. It's the same with any picture and usually with any point (text) being made.

Third. You look stunning at the side of my kitchen. Could you please bake a cake for me while you're there?

[Perrie Juran]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

Whew!  Then I don't need to fool with uploading photos to photo sites then posting them here...unless (and I never thought about this) is there any security risk in doing so, like someone being able to find their way onto my HD via a posted pic?

Of course I never worried about it before...lol.

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I don't see any way that any one could back track to you from a picture you upload here. 

If I view the image info it shows Second Life / LIthium as the image source.

I don't know if any Meta Data is saved when it is stored here.  (I don't have photoshop to inspect them with).

Even if Meta Data is saved unless you used your cell phone to upload it their would be no information to reveal where you are.  (See

about geotagging with cellular devices.)

If you want to make sure there is no Meta Data in your pictures, you can use a free1 app such as Irfanview  to strip this info.