SL needs better viewer alternatives

[Penny Patton]

Personally, I find Philip's "SL has a million active users and has in no way failed whatsoever!" to be as believable as Avariado's "SL has failed entirely and is completely abandoned". But Philip at least has the excuse of being a spokesman.

 

 This is certainly a case where the truth falls somewhere inbetween.

While SL may not have anywhere near Philip's million active users, it has managed to maintain a very sizeable, passionate, and often overly forgiving core userbase and it hits a very minstream notion of virtual worlds which keeps new people coming in to check it out.

However, for a variety of reasons, LL has failed consistently at improving new user retention, so most of those sign-ups are gone as quickly as they'd arrived.

 

 The media articles claiming SL's failure rarely, almost never in fact, make any effort to define what they mean by success or failure, instead relying on Avariado's incorrect and hilariously absurd assertations that SL is an empty ghost town, devoid of users. That's not to say they're entirely incorrect, they're just showing off shamefully lazy journalism.

 In the 2005-2007 era, SL was on the rise and so was the hype. LL cut a lot of obstacles to registration which guaranteed to boost sign-ups, of course those numbers were misleading because many of the additional accounts were alts, bots and throw-away griefer accounts.

Philip and company were selling SL as a corporate playground, with marketing opportunities and virtual workspaces as the future.

 The next Facebook, as ubiquitous as the web itself, the 3D web, these were all goals stated by Linden Lab.

 Of course, before 2008 was out it had all collapsed. Corporations were pulling out left and right, virtual workspaces were not panning out but LL was determined to make it work and eventually rolled out Enterprise and their closed grid package for corporate clients. SL lost a huge chunk of its active userbase and the ecnonomy collapsed in a way that it never really recovered from, for residents at least.

 Enterprise eventually collapsed around 2010 and LL did away with iots closed grid product, laying off 60% of their staff. Not just Lindens tied to those products, they lost a lot of important figures and projects like C# scripting and top people in their mesh import project were let go. LL still hasn't completely recovered from that.

 

 That's quite a lot that can be considered "the failure of SL" right there. LL failed to meet a large number of publicly stated goals, it failed to live up to the hype, they had to cancel failed projects and reduce staff to stay in the black.

I'm not sure if it's leveled out yet, but for the first time in SL's life, it began shedding more sims than were coming online, the grid was shrinking!

 

 Of course, those aren't the only measurements of success and failure. Again, SL has retained a passionate core userbase.The number of registrations a month is still on the rise (even if retention is still in the pits) and there'sLL still makes a sizeable profit off the SL economy. by those standards, SL seems like a big success, especially given its staying power.

 

 So it's all in how you look at it, and how you define success and failure. The hyperbole really doesn't help, but neither does ignoring SL's very real failings and choosing to only see its successes. Afterall, a product only ever really improves as much as it's users demand it to.

[Avariado]

You all look so distant from the reality that I truly believe that you are all dead and no one has warned you yet...!

[sodasullivan]

Based on your comments Avariado, the only space that is empty arund here is that space between your ears.

There are dozens of  viewer alternatives out there. Many more then LL would like to have out there. Dolphins, Niran's, Exodus, Catship, etc. Stop being lazy and get out and do some legwork. And really, if your computer can't handle SL on even medium settings, the problem is not with Second Life now is it?

 

 

 

[Avariado]

LL are paying you to come here and say these nerdy things?

I can't find other explanation!

:matte-motes-nerdy:

[Penny Patton]

---

Avariado wrote:

You all look so distant from the reality that I truly believe that you are all dead and no one has warned you yet...!

---

"Reality? Your "reality", sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever."

[Kenbro Utu]

I smell a troll...

[Avariado]

Everyone is smelling "trolls" nowdays, whenever they find someone who doesn't agree with their point of views.

If you don't have any arguments, just call the other guy a "troll".

Ahahahah... kids

[Griffin Ceawlin]

You may not be trolling, but there already are lots of viewer alternatives as some have already pointed out (although I hear that some will soon be broken without a lot of recoding). If you can't run the official viewer on your toaster, try a TPV.

I can play in SL on my 6+ year old desktop (with a decent graphics card, that is; they keep burning out, grrrr), but I also know that I won't be able to forever. Simple fact.

What exactly are the specs of your toaster, anyway?

If it can't handle a viewer, it's time to upgrade or go play Cloud Party.

[Kenbro Utu]

---

Avariado wrote:

Everyone is smelling "trolls" nowdays, whenever they find someone who doesn't agree with their point of views.

If you don't have any arguments, just call the other guy a "troll".

Ahahahah... kids

---

Many people have responded to your first comment with well-thought and lengthy explanations.  You respond with one-liners that basically say nothing, and offer no real information.  You are just spouting off trying to incite a reaction -- the very definition of a troll.  Have a good laugh, but you really should be looking in the mirror when you do so. 

[Cully Andel]

I've been a premium member now for 4 years, my laptop is 3 years old. I now cannot run the new viewers at all. Please explain WHY I should have to get a new PC, and further more who exactly is going to pay for it. Telling people to spend cash they dont have is not the answer. Linden Labs have many many many customers like myself who have been using SL on the same set up. Why are they not considering this when updating their viewers? If they don't, SL will be very much dead, as the list of people aho can't log in will simply grow,

[Cully Andel]

And before anyone tells me 'there's lots of aternatives'  - of those alternatives, some use the V3 set up so they wont run for me, and the others simply aren't being updated because they're not.

[Avariado]

Don't worry about me, because my PC is able to run Second Life.... at least until the next update! I'm not thinking about myself.

The thing is I'd like to see Second Life with more people - and REAL people - because all I see is fake users everywhere. So I made a suggestion: build a lighter viewer alternative.

Or sell the game to Mark Zuckerberg. I don't even have a Facebook account but perhaps he will find a way to bring people to SL... LOL

 

[Penny Patton]

The problem isn't that the viewer won't run on older machines. The people most likely to enjoy a product like SL generally tend to have computers capable of using even the newest viewers.

 SL could be made to run better, but the problem isn't the viewer it's the poorly developed content creation tools which are sert up in such a way that they discourage efficient content creation. Because of this people tend to use far more polygons and far larger texture maps than equivailent content developed for similar 3D environments such as videogames.

 If LL had set up better guides and tools, as well as reasonable restrictions on resource use, then SL could have looked better and run better without sacrificing any creative freedom.

 

 Even this isn't the biggest obstacle to SL achieving greater success. New users are joining SL all the time, 30,000 a day or so by last count, except very few of those people stay in SL There are many obstacles to new user retention, issues with the viewer make up a very small percentage of those problems. Much of it has to do with limits placed on content creation (we can only achieve very crude levels of interactivity, nothing even close to approaching videogames from even 10 years ago), this greatly limits the appeal of content created in SL.

There's also the problem of the visuals. From a new user's perspective, SL is extremely ugly. This has a lot to do with the content creation tools, but also with LL's lack of visual design experience.

And of course there's the new user experience itself. The registration process is needlessly confusing, the starter avatars and environments leave a lot to be desired, and then users are thrust into SL with little to no preparation, provided with no guides or tutorials. It is completely "sink or swim", which for something that amounts to entertainment doesn't hold up in retaining users.

[161488303349]

i broke my laptop. well the hardrive broke so i have to wait til Monday before i can put in the shop to get fixed

only interwebz i got now is a ancient toshiba tecra 8000 that my friend give me. like he find it in a dumpster or somewheres

+

I AM OUTRAGE !!!

bc linden not have any viewer that i can log in to SL on it

wat a STINK outfit !!!

jejejejejeje (:

[Cully Andel]

Really? Most of the people I know in SL can't afford to run the latest pc's and laptops. They have mortgages and family's to pay for. Fact is, SL really should be available to older and newer machines and graphics card. Why? Put simply a lot of us will be forced to leave because we can't afford new machines, and new players on older machines simply won't be able to log in. That affects the economy - ie, Linden Labs lose money. Simple.

---

Penny Patton wrote:

The problem isn't that the viewer won't run on older machines. The people most likely to enjoy a product like SL generally tend to have computers capable of using even the newest viewers.

 SL could be made to run

better

, but the problem isn't the viewer it's the poorly developed content creation tools which are sert up in such a way that they discourage efficient content creation. Because of this people tend to use far more polygons and far larger texture maps than equivailent content developed for similar 3D environments such as videogames.

 

---

The people I know in SL simply dont have the money to run and update new machines. Most have mortgages and family's or fixed incomes, and most have been in SL for 3 years or more. From a business point if view LL will be losing themselves money as older players have to choose between new PC to run SL, or RL bills, and they'll be forced to leave. And unless new members have up to date technology, they won't be able to log in either. SImply put, this limits how much money LL will make in the future. As you say, a  lot of new players find the whole thing too confusing so do'nt come back, so there's no SL economy from them.

I haven't seen anything from Linden Labs or Rodvik in a few months now. Are they even still here?  The new viewers are limiting people, the interface is not keeping people, and empty land all over the place. And nothing seems to be being done about it

[Coby Foden]

---

Cully Andel wrote:

I've been a premium member now for 4 years, my laptop is 3 years old. I now cannot run the new viewers at all. Please explain WHY I should have to get a new PC

---

Technology advances rapidly, especially in computers.  Second Life is not stagnant, it evolves.  New features sometimes require more horsepower from hardware.  It does not happen only in SL, it is a common trend.  We just cannot expect all computers to run 3D applications well.

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Cully Andel wrote:

... and further more who exactly is going to pay for it. Telling people to spend cash they dont have is not the answer.

---

We the users naturally.  Who else is going to buy us new hardware?  For certain things we need to spend cash.

There is no magic way around it.  (This is the answer.)

---

Cully Andel wrote:

Linden Labs have many many many customers like myself who have been using SL on the same set up. Why are they not considering this when updating their viewers? If they don't, SL will be very much dead, as the list of people aho can't log in will simply grow,

---

Number of users using mesh capable viewers have grown steadily since the implementation of mesh.  At the moment about 90 per cent of users login with mesh capable viewers.  Doesn't look like number of people who cannot login with new viewers is growing, does it?

[Perrie Juran]

---

Coby Foden wrote:

---

Cully Andel wrote:

I've been a premium member now for 4 years, my laptop is 3 years old. I now cannot run the new viewers at all. Please explain WHY I should have to get a new PC

---

Technology advances rapidly, especially in computers.  Second Life is not stagnant, it evolves.  New features sometimes require more horsepower from hardware.  It does not happen only in SL, it is a common trend.  We just cannot expect all computers to run 3D applications well.

---

Cully Andel wrote:

... and further more who exactly is going to pay for it. Telling people to spend cash they dont have is not the answer.

---

We the users naturally.  Who else is going to buy us new hardware?  For certain things we need to spend cash.

There is no magic way around it.  (This

is

the answer.)

---

Cully Andel wrote:

Linden Labs have many many many customers like myself who have been using SL on the same set up. Why are they not considering this when updating their viewers? If they don't, SL will be very much dead, as the list of people aho can't log in will simply grow,

---

Number of users using mesh capable viewers have grown steadily since the implementation of mesh.  At the moment about

90 per cent

of users login with mesh capable viewers.  Doesn't look like number of people who cannot login with new viewers is growing, does it?

---

You are correct that technology advances.  And while it is easy to say 90% are logging in using a Mesh capable viewer, at what cost to performance is it for those users?  I believe that it is universally accepted that the implementation of Mesh has been very poorly done.  I don't think I know anyone who believes it was done well and that it was done right.

The other side of  the technology advances is the domino effect.

It's pretty common knowledge that I have a unique and extreme problem with Mesh Capable Viewers.  Many people have tried to help me with my problem both here in this Forum and in my JIRA.  In the final analysis I think I know what the bottom line of my problem is.  I am using Windows XP with  newer hardware for which there are not specific XP drivers written. So Windows is installing generic drivers that do work, but the hardware is not in some cases functioning to its maximum capabilities.

People have asked me why I don't upgrade to Win 7.  I have hundreds of dollars in productivity software that my experience with Vista on my lap top tells me that they are not backward compatible.  I have read reviews carefully and none of the new releases offer any functions that I just have to have. 

I could make a separate partition and have both XP and Win7 on this computer.   I do know that is an alternative. The decision for me is 'do I want to spend a hundred bucks just so I can run SL?'  I am a member of the class of people who have been hard hit by the economy.  So I have to watch my money very wisely.

[161488303349]

looks like WIndows 8 is going to be about $US39. so that maybe an alternative costwise

+

windows 8 t have the metro tile thingy on the front but if when you click the Desktop tile then is same as Windows 7. seems toi be ok so far that part

if you got a trad PC with no touch screen/pad capability and you used to multitasking (like lots of program/windows open at same time) then the metro not much good really. it force a single tasking view on you. can have multi apps open just cant see them all on same screen at same time like in normal Windows. if you just wants quick in and out to email and messaging and news/info then is ok the metro tiles way

all the normal windows programs for email and msn and web browser and office and programs run ok on the Desktop tile so is good. can run all other browsers as well on it

SL seems to run ok on the Desktop tile. is not any better or worse than on WIndows 7 seems like so far for me anyways

edit:

had to get the new Win8 drivers off NVidia and IDT to make it go. IDT came in the WIndows Update. NVidia i get off the NVidia website

[Perrie Juran]

---

16 wrote:

looks like WIndows 8 is going to be about $US39. so that maybe an alternative costwise

+

---

I'll have to take a look at that though I may wait a bit for everyone to get their act together with Drivers and such.

TYVM

[161488303349]

can get the Preview release ISO here for free and make a install DVD/CD or USB drive and see how it works if you like

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/download/

+

if you can make a partition and boot off it then best to install that way. bc if you  upgrade/overwrite your existing OS, like on your C:, then cant undo/restore it

i quite like the Preview bc is free and can try before you buy. if wait until is official release then maybe will be no free preview anymore and will have to buy to try. if is no good for you then be waste of money that way

[Avariado]

Here's another discussion on the same theme: 

There is need for a “Lite” Second Life Viewer

 

[Coventina Dalgleish]

This is a topic dear to my heart )) I have heard this since they day I logged in in 2005 you need the best tech to run SL well it is not true I built this  machine in 2004 before I found sl to play everquest and with very reasonable (cheap) upgrades still does a fine job of translating all the new crayon drawings of the latest viewers, yes sometime I have to give it a good kick in the postierior. )) My biz partner just did a 3770k machine ,btw not for sl, even though she uses it now hehe and had to limit the frame rates to keep the GPU inside of what we call a liveabal conditions ( below 50c) and gets 40 to 100 fps on ultra all candy on.

But you can still play this game with old tech all you need to do is have the best mother baord made for AGP and P4 current cost from china 80 bucks the best video card made for agp the ATI 3850 for 50 to 100 bucks, SL hates ati , ))  the best reasonable p4 made the 3.4 over clocked to 3.7 a few fans to keep the old tech reasonably cool value of the old tec system less that 200 bucks. Sure you can go out and spend 1500 to 2k for the latest tech and you will have no concerns, well only the ones that sl can not keep up with it )) but you can live comfortably in the 20 to 30 fps range with old tech I never visit the glut sims that have 40 or over noobs trying to move I do not think any old player does as it will tax even the most up to date tech. The first time I heard I was old was when the duo core came out sorry not true I still had better fps than they did  the quads made an improvement except sl has no idea wha to do with them only the latest say an nvid 670 on a pci-3 system will give you an improvement. As the new systems arrive on the market the old tech just gets cheaper you do have to improve your system to the maximum if you want decent results but my p4 @ 3.7 and my new ATI 3850, which btw out performs the nvid 9600 are very reasonble upgrades to keep in the game. Also if you do not have the max memory your system will accept you are playing a losing game. I have sl running on an old hp 2.8 it does not play well but I can hang an alt in my store and she squirms all night )) for customers to enjoy.

 

There are alternate viewers also I am NOT associated with the guys at Cool vl but it runs well on any old system obtaining 20 to 40 fps no eye candy nice old v1 interface but it does see mesh so take a look around improve that old pos you call a puter it does not need to cost you a mortgage payment or make the kids eat hot dogs although my experience there says they prefer hot dogs ))  I do use both firepit and the LL viewer to upload mesh but its always a stuggle because they both have to upload so much visual over load being old I do enjoy the old V1 format but have also embrraced ,slowly, the new look. Do your research on motherboards on google you will find many to replace that old dell or HP you are trying to use.

If you are on an old laptop use it to keep the bread warm

 

I must say I do look forward to my new I3770k setup but this machine still performs exceptionally well for this game

 

oh as an afternote any of you remember mud walking back in the early days when the total on line user graph hit 2500 )) lets go for a walk )) hey why are we under ground hehe the improvements are too numerous to mention but the wierdness has also been incorporated The ass set server still seems to get lost too often.

 

In closing if you use old tech use an old tech viewer with some of the up to date features and enjoy the game

 

as with any on line game you have to keep the machine clean if you want good performance I can not believe how many people I ask when was the last time you defragged your root drive or run  a simple disk check let alone cleaning the registry an area SL like to dump useless game slowing data oh and for gods sake move your cache off of your root drive and let it live a full life.

 

Second life is far from dead I challange anyone to show me a more intuitive game for the creation of imagination and  yes the economy has slowed considerably  but then so has real life it is simply a reflection of the times so for those who say the game is dead you are only repeating the words of the past all of which have yet to be proved valid.

[Avariado]

To Coventina Dalgleish and eveyone that has been replying to this thread:

Don't even bother to reply to this post if you don't have any valid suggestion to help people accessing Second Life with old/low powered hardware.

If you think that SL is alive and it doesn't need more users in it or better viewer alternatives, you can keep your opinion to yourself.

Open your own thread!

Thank you

[161488303349]

when you say old/low power then dont know what you mean really

 all you need is a computer that has a gfx card that have a OpenGL driver for it. lots of low power netbooks dont and cant run OpenGL. even brand new ones

if you got a ancient computer say with Windows 2000 and a Intel 845G gfx and 128k RAM then SL will actual start on that and run about 4-12 FPS in basic basic mode settings

same if you got a linux/ubuntu hardy 256ram and a ancient NVidia geforce2 or ATI rage gfx card

back in the day when SL started those kinda systems where pretty much standard. geforce3 and 4 were kinda way way top end. bit like how 500-600 nvidia cards are now

 

[Freya Mokusei]

---

Avariado wrote:

If you think that SL is alive [...] you can keep your opinion to yourself.

Open your own thread!

---

 

Maybe you should reconsider opening a thread here, if these are your conditions. I imagine everyone here will disagree with you on this point.

Because we're in SL.

Which keeps it alive.

So it's alive.

So we're responding to your thread.

In an alive SL.

>> Paradox detected.