Ceka Cianci

i'm back in....

Sy Beck wrote: Fetid Inner Core - Google Prok and FIC for a lengthier explanation. oh in that case i'll pass lol i'm not in the mood for walls and walls of text today hehehehe

ok LL when you go away for a thanksgiving 4 day weekend..you are sposed to leave the grid on!! who turned out the lights!! one second i am trying on hair demo's then the next thing i know..Lights out!!

Bostiges!!!! now i just got kicked..MMMMWHAAAA?? Ceka Cianci with a SuperPremiumExcaliburAcc# Can you believe this?!!! Ok lindens..did you guys give out a better account that i don't know about..you are not spossed to kick me..you sposed to kick them!!! ...........................................Did i just say that out loud? Oo

firstland may be one word also..so it would be skybeam firstland.. i wasn't sure when i first typed it up what it was but i just checked over there.. so it's skybeam firstland

what the heck is FIC?

it's up ..if you want a simulator to log into try skybeam first land..i know that one is up and mine is as well..but that one should let you in if you can't find any or think of any sim names

if you updated viewers recently..that may be why..i don't think it is on at the deault..i think it is something you have to activate.. if it's not the viewer setting then maybe check your junk mail..maybe your email somehow felt it was spam and pushed it into your spam folder..

myself i wouldn't be ARing people for scripts..half the people don't even know what script limits are let alone how to curb them.. as for ejecting them for it..not until i atleast said something to them first.. because just ejecting doesn't cure anything..why not inform people and educate them about scripts ..chances are they may not know they are really high.. a lot of people want to comply with sim and land owners..why not inform them so they can pass on the information.. so many people are so quick to throw the switch lol

ya but this week humpday is not on wednsday..because this is the end of the work week ..for most it would be tuesday..for me it was monday because sunday is my first day of the week.. i'm already on my long weekend as of an hour and a half ago =) happy 4 day weekends start day!!! lol and Thanks for another year whoever you are hehehehe =)

just to get it out of the way..you do have the volume for sound effects turned up?

Exavor Diesel wrote: Yep, I looked into that though. For most people, it isn't an option as you need to earn over £73,000 (Approx US$114,000) in order to be eligible to register for VAT. I certainly don't earn that much from selling land on my sims. If I did, I would quit my RL job LOL Plus if I did register for VAT, it would mean I'd need to collect it from my EU tenants. I don't think I'd have many tenants if I started doing that... i guess we are just gonna have to wait and see what turns up when they answer your ticket.. i'm just wondering why they would go through all the extra bull to collect it if they didn't have to..or didn't feel they had to anyways.. i may come off as trying to look like i am on their side..i'm not ..i'm just looking at a lot of the details i am seeing and throwing them out there.. i am certainly no expert on Vat tax since i never had to pay it..and ya it seems unfair that you guys have to pay more.. but i just don't want to jump in and miss any details either when discussing it if they may be important ones that help in understanding them. it would be nice to figure it out i guess..hehehehe because i don't think LL is gonna go into any great detail about it in your ticket more than they did on the Ext KB..but at least maybe we can find out if they have some sort of building over they they are hiding out in LOL LL come out..we have you surrounded..this is the EU residents..we finally found you guys..we want our vat back!! \o/ lol

Exavor Diesel wrote: Of course, LindeX transactions would still be subject to VAT but this would still be a major advantage to current and prospective Europeans in the virtual land sales business considering they would not be using LindeX to buy Lindens. actually i believe lindex is transactions between users.. When I purchase L$ on the LindeX, is there a VAT applied? No, because you are purchasing L$ from another Resident, not from Linden Lab.

Exavor Diesel wrote: I think that is slightly different. By the current EU law, LL could charge us any amount of VAT as long as it corresponds with the VAT rate in at least ONE designated EU country. In theory, they could charge all European residents the UK VAT rate, which is 20%. This would then benefit people living in Sweden (who would otherwise pay their own VAT rate at 25%) but on the other hand, it wouldn't benefit residents in other countries like Cyprus because their standard VAT rate is 15%. LL already abide by the new 2015 legislation by applying the VAT rate which corresponds with the one in the country of residence. (i.e. if you live in the UK, you pay the UK VAT rate. If you live in France, you pay the French VAT rate etc etc.) It's all a load of BS however you look at it. I have spent hours reading so much crap on the europa.eu website. Much of it is open to interpretation meaning that I have to cross reference much of what I read in order to avoid getting misled by the very site which is supposed to keep us all informed... I am starting to see why LL wanted to save themselves the hassle by just abiding by with whatever crap the EU come up with. That said, the fact remains. LL is not governed by the EU and I've yet to see anyone shoot that argument down. . I don't think we are trying to shoot it down..i think we are trying to figure it out as well hehehehe as far as we know there may still be some sort of offices over there.. i'm wondering..if LL did not pay the tax..then will they come after you guys for it since it is a consumer tax?

Phil Deakins wrote: Exavor Diesel wrote: Does anyone have any evidence that says that says that non EU member states only have to pay VAT if they choose to? I don't have this and if I did, we would have a much stronger case. It's me who keeps saying that it's voluntary, but I can't point you to any documentation. It's what I read in the documentation a few years ago. But if you think about it, it *has* to be voluntary, simply because we cannot make laws that other countries have to abide by. here is what i was looking at.. Why is Linden Lab discriminating against Europeans? We are not discriminating against Europeans. We are merely trying to abide by the laws that are applicable to all non-EU based providers of Electronically Supplied Services. Is the Second Life billing office based in an EU country? Is that why you are charging VAT? No. Linden Lab has registered as a non-resident EU business, meaning that we do not have sales offices in Europe. Non-resident EU business that provide "Electronically Supplied Services" such as hosted applications, downloadable software and downloadable music, must charge each of its customers VAT according to the VAT rate of the country where the customer resides. wouldn't being registered in the EU as a non resident business in the EU still be considered a presence in the EU?

Exavor Diesel wrote: Does anyone have any evidence that says that says that non EU member states only have to pay VAT if they choose to? I don't have this and if I did, we would have a much stronger case. @Ceka Cianci "LL doesn't have to abide by the law and EU doesn't have to let them do business there if they decided not to pay the Vat.." I doubt there would be any consequences there because fortunately the EU has never played a big part in censorship. (compared to other nations that is) I do not think our society would tolerate it in the slightest and given the current state of the EU, I doubt they would make any changes to this at the moment because it would only risk diverting attention from where it's most needed right now. if it's an EU law then how could it be censorship? from my understanding it is to make the playing field more level for EU businesses in the same market.. as i said LL is not keeping it ..so there has to be a good reason for sending it back over...i'm sure they are not taking it from you because they enjoy pissing off the EU market hehehehe

Phil Deakins wrote: Ceka Cianci wrote: oh no phil more than likely knows i was goofing around.. @Exavor Ceka seems to have taken to razzing me and goofling around with me - which is rather nice. I hope she'll tell if and when the earth moves for me :smileysurprised: *licks her finger and places it on her hip* Tsssssssssss hehehehe

Phil Deakins wrote: When they had a business presence here, they *had* to do it. They didn't have a choice except to remove themselves from here. If they still have a business presence here, they still have to do it. thats the thing..we don't know if they do or not..they state having offices there in the official extended KB that was updated just this past august 2011.. that was only 3 months ago..they say they are non resident offices..maybe they will let this person know through thier ticket.. i would like to know myself for future threads..because it does seem to be a factor for some.. they could just be paying it because it makes it easier to do business in the EU rather than fight the EU hehehe

Exavor Diesel wrote: Yep, we know that but it doesn't explain why LL has to oblige to this. What's *legally* stopping them fron ignoring it? Nobody has explained the logic behind this here. With this logic, it would suggest that the EU could make up *any* legislation under the sun and then expect every country around the globe to abide by it. Why don't they do that? Simply because we all know that the EU government can only govern the EU and not the entire world. The EU has absolutely no control over countries which are not within the EU, including the United States. (Or under some kind of agreement like Norway - let's not get into that one though.) I think some people are having trouble getting their heads around the concept that "Just because the EU says it's the law, it doesn't mean to say it's a valid law." Of course, nobody is above the law so to speak, but they may live in a place where the law does not apply! i had said that LL chose to abide by the EU law.. i said it because they also said it.. the money is not staying in LL's pocket so it's not like they are getting profit from it..i'm sure they probably feel it's a good thing to do..maybe it's like one hand washing the other more than it has to do with law..a lot of businesses try to make things a bit easier on themselves rather than harder..i'm sure the EU could make it harder on them.. maybe even cut off the EU market..that would kind of suck for you guys and for us as well in more ways than one.. ETA: LL doesn't have to abide by the law and EU doesn't have to let them do business there if they decided not to pay the Vat.. my head has been wrapped around it since LL decided to pass it on to the user rather than paying it themselves anymore.. a lot of people were really upset back then and left or slowed down on spending.. i didn't like it coming to them either..a lot of my friends are from the EU back then..it was no fun for them at all..

Exavor Diesel wrote: To be honest, that's not really fair on them. They are front line workers and with respect, they're probably paid far less than those who make these decisions. They're simply not likely to have answers to hand, other than what's said in the wiki. (which as we know, is questionable material) It's not their fault and I'm sure many of them will understand our concerns. The best channel is probably via the ticket system because things can be escalated and hopefully not brushed under the carpet. However, I have been known to be somewhat of an optimist. oh no phil more than likely knows i was goofing around.. about all you can do is what you are doing..make a ticket..unless rodvik decided to stop in and answer it for us..which could be possible..he jumps in these threads every once in awhile hehehehe as far as the extended knowledge base..it's up to date and official..thats where you get the fine details that the blog knowledge base doesn't have.. you will find information there that you cannot find from the blog KB..and much more detailed..

Exavor Diesel wrote: I think we should put the US sales tax thing aside. My comment on that was clearly incorrect and was based on a previous comment someone had made in this topic. It's not directly related to the topic at hand. I'm awaiting for LL's response to my ticket regarding the VAT issue. I've asked for it to be escalated. I'm not expecting it to have much impact but if enough people kick up a fuss (and continue to do so - in a constructive manner), I'm sure LL will consider exploring their options once again. The article someone linked above (http://deltango.wordpress.com/2008/08/24/cogs-in-the-vat-machine) is very interesting. It looks at it from a slightly different angle as it gives a good insight into the possible implications to sales on SL, with some exceptionally good analogies. One could say it's all old news now but that's not to say we should let it blow over. i was trying to figure out who ran that site..i was liek..omg i know this site who the hell's site is this.. then looked at the link..it's Deltango's LOL then my hair returned back to brunette and i feel much better now hehehe

Phil Deakins wrote: Ceka Cianci wrote: they do have offices in the UK..just not sales offices.. it's probably relays for servers or something.. That would make it different then. Earlier this afternoon, I called "billing" (it's now in the US and no longer in the UK), and asked if LL has any offices in the EU. I was told that they don't have any. If LL has a presence in the EU, then it would make it different. I looked into this topic a few years ago, and having I read all the online documentation I could find, it appeared to me that the EU did set up something for overseas companies to collect VAT from EU residents, but it was voluntary, simply because no country (or the EU) can make laws that people in other countries must abide by. It can't be done, so it has to be voluntary. What a country can do is try to prevent their own people from receiving a service, such as SL, from a company in another country if that company won't collect VAT. Someone mentioned that possibility, using banks and gambling as an example. But companies in other countries do not have to abide by foreign laws (unless they take up a presence in the country, of course). you should call them back and put them on the spot and say..why does it say you do in the vat tax section of the extended KB hehehehehehe just to see if they stutter lol they may have offices there but not something public..being non-resident they may be looking at them as U.S. offices.. i would check with them and see what they mean by saying in one place that they do have them and on the phone they say they do not..

my state we don';t have state income tax..but we have one hell of a sales tax..like 9.25% i think hehehehe

Exavor Diesel wrote: I knew there was something I was missing in my previous post. I have since edited it in order to cover the expected response from Sy Beck but I was a little late. "But doesn't Linden Lab have offices in Europe? Yes but all Second Life Residents are customers of the US corporate entity." That is from the wiki. I would take it as a pinch of salt. (not even that in some cases) The wiki is often out of date and IIRC, it's no longer maintained. I don't know why LL scrapped the wiki in favour of the knowledge base because the concept of a wiki seems better to me. That's perhaps best for another thread though. you have to look for thier official seal to make sure it is not resident edited wiki..the last time it was updated and this is from the bottom of the page This page was last modified on 11 August 2011, at 14:17. if you go back to that page you will see the seal which is a cube that says linden lab under it..it is the official kb ..it is just the extended KB..and it is kept up to date..

Exavor Diesel wrote: @Ceka Cianci My argument is quite simple. "LL is not based in the EU, nor does it operate in the EU. Therefore, it should not have to abide by EU rules & legislation." If it is proven that LL does indeed have offices in the EU, I will give up because it will blow my argument out of the water, However, I still believe that LL no longer has offices in the EU. Their contact page states: "945 Battery Street San Francisco, CA 94111 +1 (415) 243-9000 Note that this number is not Second Life Support. Fax: 415.243.9045 We also have offices in Seattle, Davis, Boston, and Reston. http://lindenlab.com/contact This implies (but does not necessarily prove) that they do not have offices outside of the USA. If that is the case, they don't have to abide by EU legislation & rules. It makes no difference whether or not they purchase various services from the EU. (I'm sure they do) - as long as they don't operate in the EU as a business. they just don't have Sales offices in the EU..sorry for this font..these forums suck for fonts placement.. But doesn't Linden Lab have offices in Europe? Yes but all Second Life Residents are customers of the US corporate entity. the offices they do have there are registered as non-resident.