solstyse

I'd llike to know how people are using older viewers now? I really think that Mesh forced people to update already. server side baking isn't going to do any more than Mesh did. But then again, I didn't expect the difference in resource use between mesh-enabled viewers and non-mesh-enabled. that was a big disappointment to me. Theoretically, serverside baking should actually reduce the strain that the newer viewers put on older computers. We'll just have to wait and see if that's how it actually works though. I was expecting sl to speed up after Mesh, and instead it slowed down. And cam someone PLEASE tell me why every single time one of these threads pops up, someone feels the need to get all tech-snobby and act like there's something wrong with people who run older computers? Can someone possibly reconcile that "I'm better than you because my pc is newer" attitude with the current market trends of smaller, lighter machines? I mean seriously, with the shift to lightweight "apps" making major OS developers and chip manufacturers change their focus from power to efficiency, what is the point of posting all this "you need to upgrade" idiocy. Yeah, technology changes. We get it. We all know that. you want to copy and paste some facts about gravity because you think it makes you just as smart as Sir Isaac Newton too? Take a good look at the technological landscape in recent years and the near future, and you'll clearly see that the shift is toward smaller, more mobile computers with chips that consume less energy, and programming that consumes less resources. Maybe it's the companies that are still making their software more bloated that need to get on board. Maybe, posting that everyone who has an issue with the fact that sl is becoming more of a resource hog just makes you sound like a pompous azz. That is, of course, unless you plan to fix the problem by purchasing new equipment for everyone who doesn't like the amount of system resources eaten up by SL. Then you won't be a pompous azz. You'll be an altruist.

All the facts you mention are sincerely appreciated. Welcome to the forum, since it's your first post! How long were you lurking? Now be honest lol All good natured jokes aside, I really am glad you posted the info, but I disagree with your opinion that sim cost isn't a problem. Even the cheapest 9 sim scenario you wrote, while well thought out, is higher than what some United States citizens make in a year. The cheapest monthly fees are equivalent to a car payment, and you're not going to ride your sl land to work. However, this thread is all focused on how much land is lost. What about the losses of non-landowners? Admittedly, that's probably a bit harder to track, but still. What do you think would happen if LL did make so more people could afford land, but was unable to boost the number of non-landowner memberships? I think we'd end up with that same empty feeling that everyone says is holding OS back.

Coby Foden wrote: Hmm... the deformer was never cancelled nor "canned". The progress has been going on steadily since the project started - although slowly, slower than many have expected. What comes to old rigged mesh clothes, they certainly will not become obsolete when the deformer finally will be released. They will continue to work exactly the same way as they have done so far. Only thing is that they don't know nothing about the deformer. But if a specific clothing item fitted earlier, it indeed will fit the same way in the future. I was actually coming from a "perception is reality" mindset. The problem is that so many people have been subjected to so many of these rumors, and i'm sure that's holding some of the creativity back. If someone is creating for profit, then they lose at least part of thier motivation by being unsure if a new product they make is going to have any kind of significant lifespan. If deformable mesh is introduced in a way that the deformer is incompatible with existing mesh, then the fear is that standard size clothing will be more difficult to sell. And I think we'd see more enthusiasm from the "hobby" builders if these rumors about the deformer wouldn't have them considering what we have now just a mediuim to practice with. I agree wholeheartedly that the problem is that people don't know enough about the deformer. I just think all the misinformation that was in this forum over the past few months is the reason why nobody knows what to think, and it's the reason why we're not seeing more creative minds putting products out.

Personally, what I would like to see in the next few years is better optimization of what sl already has. I don't really need new features to enjoy. But I would LOVE to see the features that SL already has work more smoothly. I think that fixing that would be the best way to move forward, even if it's not readily apparent. For example, people are complaining about group chat. I've experienced some problems with it myself. And I really have to wonder how that's allowed to continue. There are rumors about a new ciewer that'll fix all that. I applaud that decision. LL should participate at least enough to dispell some rumors. I mean, they don't necessarily have to get personal. But they should make some more noise here on the forums. Mesh, for example... Are we getting a deformer or not? We've all talked and speculated enough to thoroughly confuse ourselves. It would be nice if someone who works at LL would give us some clarification. Speaking of mesh, it took too long after it was introduced for it to be any good. And the viewers are too demanding on the user's graphics cards now. I like mesh, but it can be done a lot better. All of those other games that use mesh lag a lot less than sl does. There are a couple of reasons why I say that LL should pause on any new features. One is for the reasons listed above. One is that there is a shift to computers that are LESS powerful now. And there is a shift in gaming to consoles. I see a future where any program has to work across a variety of devices, using a variety of operating systems and chipsets. The world's largest software makers are all going for a "single interface" approach, and lightening up their heaviest programs to match this business model. Sooner or later, LL will be forced to follow suit, or be left with fewer people who are even capable of using their programs. But optimization may be more difficult than we would like to think. For one thing, content lasts forever. The databases just keep growing. Nothing expires, except for the viewers themselves. We all love our inventories, but at some point backward compatibility has to break in order to go forward. Perhaps if LL starts introducing some standards to build optimization, with clear deadlines. Most people are more aware now than in the past anyway. Example: LL could create a schedule, whereby in 3 months, they will delete all objects with textures above 1024 square pixels. Then in three more, all with textures above 512. Bring it down in scheduled steps to what SL is optimized for. Meanwhile, immediately make revisioins that prevent unoptimized content from being uploaded. Same with scripts. "In x amount of months, scripts with _____ obsolete code will be disabled." That sounds worse than it is. If anyone complains about it, that's like complaining that your Windows 95 software won't work on your Windows 7 computer. Sure, you'll miss the old stuff, but not as badly as you think you will. Even if LL does choose to stop making new features to optimize the old, then thorough testing is needed at every stage, along with an efficient bug reporting method that everybody is familiar with from the moment they create their account. And every revision should be revisited until it's as close to perfect as it can get. Whether we see the changes or they're all just to the foundation, the focus should be on performance above all. I think by doing that, a few things would be accomplished. Lag on the mainland would go down. That is, after all one of the main reasons why people want private land. Server space and load would both decline. That would help control LL's costs. Whether or not they pass the savings to us is a different question. The possibility of cross-platform ability would stir up some interest. Combined with the increased efficiency, this would greatly help both attracting new accounts and retaining old ones. Fewer rezz problems. People who get tired of looking at gray blobs get tired of being on sl. Also, I think one of he biggest issues with tier is that going up to the next level always means doubling. I think a more flexible system would treat LL very well. Maybe for mapping purposes land would have to follow the logic that it already does. But I see no reason why prim allowance can't be bought and sold more flexibly than it is. For one size land, having only homestead or full region is kind of limiting. Particularly when the price difference is as steep as it is. If prims were unlocked from land size, then someone who wants to have, say, an ocean sim could have one for far cheaper. While someone who wants to have, say, a skyrise could do so and stuff their building without needing to figure out how to make the empty space around it look more full without spending the prims they'd rather use on furniture.

I think part of the problem is the confusion surrounding the rollout of mesh. System clothes were and remain straightforward. Mesh, on the other hand. first you could use your old viewer, and there would be a patch, but then you couldn't. And the very first mesh viewers crashed all the time, slowing down some people's adoption of mesh. Even now, the mesh viewers require more resources from the resident's computer. then most people were taken by surprise when the mesh clothing didn't automatically fit. Some to this day won't wear mesh because of it. And there are vaiations to the "standards" as well as people who just don't want to be "standard" at all. Then the deformer was going to come out, and revolutionize mesh. Then, the deformer wasn't going to work with any "old" mesh. Only new mesh. So it would make any current mesh obsolete. Then the deformer was cancelled. then it wasn't cancelled. It was just delayed. Then it was canned again. Then, maybe not... merchants demand answers and the ability to plan. In terms of Mesh, LL isn't delivering that. So they're just kind of playing around, kicking the dirt. There are some nice mesh designes out there. But I think a lot of the creativity is being held back until we know for sure what mesh will lead to.

hahaha. think of themental picture you get from reading this directly after reading a thread about sl brands crossing into rl. Yep. Now I'm thinking of someone in rl geting a tattoo to make their cleavage more obvious. Just imagine that process. lol

Linda Brynner wrote: The next logical think for LL to work on has little to do with tech. They are behind on that already big time on navigation and mobility. However, tech will develop as it is... The next logical thing to do is to get more users online; they have been falling since 2008/9. The question has to be raised why Second Life doesn't catch on and remains so isolated, even being a geek thing perhaps. SL isn't moving on that matter. One of the many complaints i hear from ppl who left is that SL seems a dominant place for social inadequates, geeks and sexual frustrates all over the place. It's no fun to get socially bold and frustrated IM's all the time. Of course it depends where somebody goes in SL, however the chance of being brutalized is always very very very high. SL really needs to get a mature marketing in place and change their bad/wrong image. Now why have they never done this? I can somewhat agree. I think everything a corporation should do revolves areound growing their customer base. Broadening their platform potential is one way I saw of them doing just that. That, and cleaning up their code just a little. Laying off the new features to clean up what thye already have so that SL isn't the most demanding thing you do with your hardware. As for the social image, yeah, I can see exactly where you're coming from. I hear just as many, if not more complaints about dropping performance making it less fun, but I do get to hear my share of "social" complaints too. I just don't know if there's any real way for LL to fix them. Maybe adding reasons to therating system would help? I mean, like in movies, "Rated R for language, violence... etc." Maybe if they do "Rated A for strong sexual situations" on sex sims and "Rated A for violence and/or gore" on the combat sims it would make it easier for people to know where to go? I really don't know.

But a study has proven that 80 percent of studies are just made up on the spot. We're just having too much fun now. Yes, OP, I think this thread would be a great thing to include in your paper

16, I think you need to put the lid back on Pandora's box right now. By not agreeing with me, here's what you're inviting.... Women will be posting ad nauseum that the guy's they have been trying to be romantic with from halfway around the world aren't who they pretend to be. Men will post complaingin that the women they've been masturbating to on adult sims arent' really women. Babies will be forced to eat their own feces in front of computer screens because nobody will be there to change and feed them. (maybe I went too far with this one.) hahaha, sure I jest. But people really do expect way too much from the internet.

Just post a link in chat. Sure, people will have to click on it, but that'll take them to their browser, which as you already pointed out is less laggy.

Peggy Paperdoll wrote: Acting childish about someone else acting childish is just plain childish. And a point that might save you some grief from the people who can grief you without you having any recourse. Read the "Community Guidelines" ( http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Discussion_guidelines ). Specifically the sections regarding derogatory comments about others........you can not "name and shame" here in the forums. I suggest you edit your post and remove the name of this person you are having this childish spat with. A reply like this ^^^ is answered by a threat of reporting by the OP? Seriously? That's actually some very good advice. It's not "bossing around" or "attacking" as what had been accused. I'm a bit baffled by this. Why post if not for advice? This post was much more helpful than the vague "Family Guy" reference I responded with. I feel really lucky that I didn't take you seriously.

Knowl Paine wrote: People have sex in SL? :smileysurprised: Well, people park their avatars on laggy poseballs while typing repetative lines to eachother and masturbating furoiusly. I guess that counts as sex to some (virgins). hahaha. It cracks me up. some people come off as so desperate in sl to see pixellated porn, when they clearly have the internet. Havewn't they discovered the real videos and pictures on google yet?

The internet cannot change our diapers before we're potty trianed. Nor can it feed us until we learn to cook. It cannot wipe away our tears when we cry. It cannot partake in our moments of success, even if it can congratulate us afterward. We cannot learn of consequence when win + right arrow + enter allows us to just shut it off. We cannot feel loved by a machine that does not cuddle. We cannot be comforted by a machine that does not embrace. Text is empty of both inflection and empathy. The only real human interface is another human. SL is fun, but there's a very good reason why it's called SECOND life.

I'm sorry. I had to.

Fight fire with fire. Call her a big stupid doo-doo head.

wiked Anton wrote: its strange, when i was in emerald and pheonix, i widened my bandwidth in preferrances and never had any more rezzing problems, when my live music venue was going and had 30 people on the sim, i didnt even get lag problems. although my internet speed was and is pretty good. i upgraded to an i5 with 6 gyg of memory and a 1 gyg video card. if your using a laptop, i find that is where most of the problems ly, i use a desk top. but to your point, no, there is nothing new in SL, and it seems everytime LL adds some new gizmo, the quality of the experience deteriorates. i have been logging on just to see my girl, with whom i am having difficulty connecting with lately. so perhaps SL has run its course. remember all those companies that do amazingly for years, then they just die out as the next newest and biggest thing come along. besides, i too am getting bored with the same ole same ole................when something works so well, why do people then ruin it by trying to make it better, adding new things? i maintain that a car that has too many gadgets, just has more things that will break down.This i also believe with SL, and cutting staff didnt help at all coz then no one got service.. I have to agree that mesh and pathfinding were done in the worst ways possible. Now, they both have potential. But hte problem I have is that mesh promised to cut down on lag, and did the exact opposite. Maybe server-side it did improve things. But client side it created problems where none existed. Phoenix was blazing fast for me. No mesh enabled viewer is. None. So... okay, now people can create ultra-realistic looking stuff that is harder to buy since it doesn't fit the avatar, and I now need an ultra-bloated viewer that runs ultra-slow on ultra-low settings just to see people properly. I can literally walk around easier on my 1ghz phone that automatically "dumbs down" textures than i can on my 2.3 ghz computer. And the world just looks ugly anymore, since I have to run at the lowest settings, when before mesh I could keep them at medium high. It's strange that LL keeps doing this, since desktops make up a smaller percentage of pc sales year after year. You're equally right about car manufacturers. Except that it's not so much about the "gadgets" breaking. It's more about them diverting money that could be used to build quality car parts. And it seems that as time goes on, the car's OBD "network" gets less and less reliable.

wiked Anton wrote: where i come from, children arent allowd to earn an income until they are 15...........so there you go, make an adult avi if you want to get money. What? They can't set up lemonade stands? Or sell girl scout cookies? Or shovel old people's sidewalks when it snows? Or rake leaves in the fall? Or sell arts and crafts? Or hustle other kids to spend their lunch money on collectibles?

If you're going to all keep arguing about sl vs os, then at least have the courtesy to wait until I get more popcorn. I remember once I got into a friendly debate with someone who wanted me to go to the Wasteland sim here in sl, but I was busy on a new startup sim. My side of it was, "I can be a small part of something that's already big, or I can take my chances and be at the beginning of something that might grow." I think on a much larger scale, that's what the OS people are thinking. And all this talk about everything being doomed is just plain hilarious. When did Chicken Little gain so many impersonators? lol. Neither sl or os can kill the other. They're too different. The lifespan of each will be determined on it's own merit. SL's shrinking. Yep, so what? So is everyone. When sl charges $300 per month that third party OS grid server farms can profit by renting out for $50, and give many more prims to boot, there is no question that the profit margins are there to keep SL afloat. And with OS being developed by people who just have apassion for it, no overhead for employees or offices, that grid can afford to shrink too. It really doesn't hurt either of them. To say that the mp is going to doom sl is like being one of those creepy homeless guys in a tinfoil hat wearing a sign that says, "Repent for the end is nigh." There are rp sims, which have switched from renting to shops to a more residential business model. There are clubs that can survive based on traffic and donations. The sl economy is smaller, but it's still there. Yes, there are even shops that survive. The flipside to the whole sl economy and possibility of profit mindset is that sims are so cheap in OS grid that there's not really a need to make them profitable. If someone just wants a large playground, they can have it. The reason why open source and closed source people often have such a hard time reconciling their differences is because they are totally opposite in the way they approach almost everything. The arguements are the r4esult of people refusing to acknowledge the success of others. And there is nothing more true than the fact that the consumer benefits from that tug-of-war. Think about it. Microsoft and Apple are both very successful and popular. But so are Gnu/linux, Apache, Mozilla, and Android. In a big way, sl is the most ironic place in the world to even have such an arguement. Since LL uses a hybrid model. Servers = closed, Viewers = open.

that is a fact that I've been trying to reconcile in my own real life for a long, long time. I care what I drive, what computer I use, how the hardware and software work, what affects this and that... etc... People who don't care are ones I just can't relate to. maybe it's more difficult for those who create the products. maybe I'm too "in the middle" for my own good, betweent he consumer and the creator. Maybe I'm just a nerd who does way too much research. i dunno. But when it coes to computers, I want to know what my os is doing in the "background." I wnat to know what is trying to get past my firewall, what is trying to control aspects of my computer automatically. when I get a car, i want to know whether certain parts are servicable. I want to know where bushings are used instead of bearings to keep costs low. I want to know how parts fit. And I want to know what OS the car is running for it's OBD system. (Yeah, I guess I AM a nerd.)

that in a way goes right back to what I was saying. That open source takes a little more effort or hunting on the part o fhte user, but in the end offers a much more customizable experience. I can use windows on only one kind of computer... My pc. but I use linux on both the pc and my phone. It's also used in microcomputers like Raspberry and Rikomagic MK802. It seems to me that while the gnu/linux crowd of the 90's is disappointed by the lack of a revolution, they're almost eager to denounce the evolution they've caused. It's almost like because it took as long as it did, they view their own success as a failure.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote: I don't know where you are from, but the malls in and near where i live in RL are always packed. There are still packs of unwatched tee roaming around in them, as well as elderly walkers, new families (dad mom and baby in stroller) established families(mom dad and a cpl of kids) and the wandering adult looking for that perfect gift. Personally i have always loved shopping in the mall, in SL and in RL. 99% of my purchases are from inworld, after using the MP to find what i am looking for. Where you are from may be the exception, but the "death of the mall scene" scenario has been happening for a few years now in most places. It comes down to most malls being overpriced for what they offer to the retailers there. Also, all of your examples mention the consumer. What about the retailer? I mean, are there as many places for all tose people you mentioned to visit as before? I'll admit to you right now hat where I live, land values are highly skewed in rl. I can tell you that in all honesty, a "brick and mortar" store where I live is nothing more than a way to give in to political corruption. but the trends of my area are not unique to my area. maybe you live in a place where business is conducted better, where taxation isn't a funnel to the most influential names. Maybve values have survived where you're at. but the trend both nationally and in the state that I live in is that malls are failing. Maybe it's a symptom of busineses being unwilling to save themselves. A sort of expectation of corporate welfare which federal government, and especially the PA state government have given in to. Or maybe it's something else. But my experiences are that malls no longer offer the best value to the retailer, and in turn prohibit said retailer from offering the best to the consumer. Again, this is nothing against you or your viewpoint. But if your municipality has kept the traditioin of mall shopping alive while all over the nation it's failing, then perhaps you can take it as a compliment. You live in a place that got it right while most other places got it srong.

In a way, I kind of think that Lunus Torvold has it wrong. See, he was never a "marketing" guy. He made the kernel that runs all the gnu tools which make up the Linux os. He is a coder at heart, and he seems to throw off an air of unconfidence every time he's interviewed. this is not in any way talking smack. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the man. But what he has made possible is more capable than he seems to acknowledge in the video you have posted. I can do everything in Linux that I can in Windows. I will admit that I heavily rely on other people for the proper drivers etc. but that is no different than in Windows, except that the drivers and such come from third parties instead of directly from the manufacturer. The interview in a way speaks to the humbleness of Linus, and all those connected with the GNU project. The fact is that right now, tablets and smartphones, which run Android, which is a Linux derivitave, are taking a shocking amount of marketshare. What you posted, 16, looks to me like Linus Torvold is unaware of his own success. It's understandable, in light of what I said in an earlier post about the fact that open source takes longer to come to fruitition than closed source.

You could try creating some content. Clothes, furniture, etc. There are a couple of advantages to that idea. One is that what you're doing right now requires that you be at your pc, shile listing items on the MP just gets you money automatically. The other is that MP listings are based on your rl age, not the age you choose your sl avatar to be. If you are in rl over 18, you can create anything for the mp, and not worry about going into any "gray" areas.

These debates about tier are always entertainging. Especially when OS gets involved. "Sl should lower tier because so much land is being abandoned." "There's so much land in OS, but nobody there." Those two seem to be the main complaints. But truthfully, how poplulated is the land in sl? The truth is that as a corporatiion, LL has had to do some sort of analysis to come up with the prices they charge. And the prices won't change until they re-analyze and the results show that land prices are causing them issues. we can all speculate here, and it's great fun. but we don't have access to all the info that they do.We can all wish that land was cheap like in opensim, but that can't happen. I think that what all the users are wishing for is a happy medium. Something where there is land that is affordable to the average person, but not so much of it that it's constantly nearly empty. And what makes this hard to obtain is that there are two extremely opposite approaches. On the LL side of the arguement, tier prices ae actually prohibitive to some of the more creative people out there. $300/month is quite an expense. Bearing that kind of financial burden alone is like giving up the ability to make payments on a brand new car just for a virtual playground. But approached from a business standpoint, it does allow just about anyone to be a virtual landlord and subdivide up the land into parcels to try to make some money back, keep a little land for yourself and create on a small scale. On the opensim side of the arguement, the lack of an economy makes for less motive to create "professional" builds, even while granting more ability. In other words, the only people who will build for opensim are those who are self motivated. Teh people who build for no reason other than that is what they like to do. I think there's plenty of room in the world for both, and even a third. Back in the 90's, everyone thought that open source software of any kind was insanity. Today, open source operating systems based on Gnu/Linux is giving Windows some serious competition. (For clarity, Android is built on the linux kernel.) But it took over a decade for linux to be an operating system for everyone. Until then it was for hackers and developers. Well, opensim is kind of like the Linux of virtual worlds, while LL is the Microsoft. I doubt that opensim will ever see the numbers that LL does, or turn the profit that it does. And I'm sure that for the average virtual world enthusiast it'll take a long time for opensim to be the right choice. Right now, it seems like more of a specialized environment for a specialized user, that has hopes of one day going mainstream. For the original post... I'm equally confused about what makes tier prices so high. The only GUESS I have is that the tier stays high as a way to prevent the feeling of emptyness that has been mentioned in regard to opensim. I think maybe the number of free accounts and premium without land are part of the equation, in addition to the traditional balance of supply and demand.

All the people who log on to second life everyday are rezzing... somewhere. Not necessarily at a shop. But they're on some land somewhere. But yet nowhere is crowded. Kind of thought provoking, isn't it? How many sims even pretend to come near the 100 avatar limit? But yet how many tens of thousands of people are here daily? The point is that there is no shortage of things to do in sl. There is no shortage of places to go. People love to panic when their favorite sim dissappears, and think that's what's happening all over sl. Likewise, they look at the numbers, and panic due to closed sims they never visited. The only people who really need to worry about any of that are the employees and stockholders. If your plan is to just go inworld and enjoy, then you'll be much more successful if you don't let those factors stress you into feeling that the second apocalypse is coming. For the MP... Well, I tend to think of SL kind of like a city. A mall is part of it, and 15 years after the mall stopped being the hip place to hang out in rl, now it's no longer the hip place to hang out in sl. The biggest difference is that the sl "city" isn't stuck with a rotting eyesore of a building due to the shift in consumerism like the rl city is. I think the people who were defending the mp may have been accused of having more selfish reasons than they actually had when they mentioned their own reasons for their preference. The experience with inworld shopping vs marketplace shopping is the same for everyone. Just like in rl, shopping sl on a websie doesn't let you see the product directly, but it does have the distinct advantage of allowing a person to view only those items they are looking for. And it provides the speed that today's consumer demands. A person can visit many more mp shops in a given amount of time than they can inworld, compare quality and prices, and generally be more discerning about which shops they wish to see inworld. The lag issues at inworld shops are very real, as are the layout issues. The bottom line is that not only to the people who used themselves as examples, but to everybody, the marketplace is mroe geared toward the "average consumer" But just like the rl cities that were proven wrong in their belief that they would die without their mall, sl will survive without it.