Are SIM admins allowed to share IM logs without permission if its in their sim rules?

[Museling]

Does the rules of a sim trump the TOS when it comes to sharing IMs. I've been told by people in the past nothing breaks TOS, its like saying well if its in the rules child avatars can be in an adult sim because its in the SIM rules for being in that sim. Why would logs be any different without permission.

[Irene Muni]

Question: Are SIM admins allowed to share IM logs without permission if its in their sim rules?

Short answer: No

[Cinnamon Lohner]

First of all, child avatars are allow to be in an adult sim, so your example is flawed.

There is a difference between implied permission and explict permission.  My guess is that in a RP situation where admins share chat logs to monitor activities, the sim owners should probably create a system where people have to explictly agree.  Implied permission is likely to cause them problems as a person can complain that they were not made aware of the rule and therefore never had the opportunity to grant permission.

--Cinn

[LoveAngeL Lyre]

Hello Museling. Look into the Community Standards. http://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php

 

Disclosure

Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Life experience. Sharing personal information about your fellow Residents without their consent -- including gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual preference, alternate account names, and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their Resident profile -- is not allowed. Remotely monitoring conversations in Second Life, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without the participants' consent are all prohibited.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

No.  The ToS the rule book (or laws if you want to put it that way)......no sim owner, resident or group can make up their own rules in violation of the ToS.  What your sim owners are saying is akin to a Home Owners' Association telling all the members of the association that the Association has the right to your banking records to make sure you are not purchasing paint for your home that violates their earth tone only rules.

 

Read this part of the ToS.......in fact, it would be best if you read the entire ToS since you said you did when you entered SL for the first time.  Questions like this come up sometimes as much a 3 or 4 times a week.........it stems for people just not reading what they agreed to do in SL.

[Innula Zenovka]

Depends how they do it.   They aren't allowed to notecard them and send them direct to people in-world (or post them in these forums), but the LL Official FAQ on Residents' Privacy Rights warns

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NOTE

: This does not include posting of chat to social media sites or other websites. Posting such logs on web pages, emailing them, or printing them out and posting them on utility poles in the "real world" -- are all actions beyond the scope of the Second Life Terms of Service. ; while that might be illegal, but those laws must be enforced by the proper law enforcement agencies

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So if they email them to other admins, or share them on Facebook, come to that, that's outside LL's jurisdiction.

[Irene Muni]

You can see more answers in your other thread: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/TOS-question/td-p/1354035

[Solar Legion]

In sharp contrast to many others here ....

They can, provided their rules are presented in a manner which is utterly impossible to miss. There are RP sims out there that, upon landing in their hub, you will find a texture listing their rules, be sent a notecard with their rules, be sent several dialogs listing their rules AND have the rules sent to you via a private chat script.

This is done to minimize the efforts of some who believe that such methods breach ToS - there are those who firmly believe that no one, under any circumstance should be allowed to share a log. They will enter these places, act like a fool and then send in an Abuse Report the moment someone other than the staff who was present contacts them or otherwise ejects them.

The tactic is quite underhanded and frankly serves only to make life more difficult for those who need access to these logs.

Now - one could potentially code up an entry way which requires you to state that you agree to the rules in open chat or on a chat channel .... However, this set up is unweildly and only further hampers the GMs.

Having the rules come from as many sources as possible to preclude a person complaining that they were somehow unaware ... is one of the best options out there. This difference between imlicit and explicit consent also needs to cease being used/discussed. In many other areas of life, reading a rule in a particular area (or not reading it/willfully ignoring it) and continuing operation/entering said area ... If the rule has been read, it is often viewed as exlicit consent. You are aware of the rule and have entered that area willingly. Ignorance of a rule (be it willful or not) is when implicit consent is used. You were not aware of that particular rule, yet you entered anyway, explicitly agreeing to all rules you have read or are aware of while imlicitly agreeing to rules you may not have read or were aware of.

To finish this answer off, I will state an opinion: Those who have issues with their logs being shared should refrain from typing at all or at the very least watch what they type. Linden Lab may have a clause in their ToS concerning the distribution of these logs .... But who is to say that someone will not take them to court over a breach of federal (and local) law where the recording and sharing of conversations is concerned?

Yes, they can be shared outside of the service - this is not always the best method. Trust me, I have personal experience on that matter. Back in the older years (on many ISPs) people actually accepted that their conversations - be they public or private - might end up being shared with others and thus they were more mindful of what they sent out. Linden Lab took a different approach and now - when someone is caught being a fool or causing problems - people will write up an Abuse Report in retaliation. This needs to stop. The Lindens gave drama mongers, griefers and trouble makers a potent tool in getting revenge with that ToS clause. 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

Solar Legion said:

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"...

This is done to minimize the efforts of some who believe that such methods breach ToS - there are those who firmly believe that no one, under any circumstance should be allowed to share a log. They will enter these places, act like a fool and then send in an Abuse Report the moment someone other than the staff who was present contacts them or otherwise ejects them.

..."

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Okay Mr. Lawyer.  Let's present this in a real life situation........which is the part of ToS that is relavant here (the right to privacy).  Say you enter a department store that has signs plastered everywhere stating that "You will be monitored in every aspect of your shopping.  It's our effort to cut down on shop lifting and to save our partons money.  We further reserve the right to publish what we have monitored to our employees and/or our patrons to further discourage theft"  That's great.  Save me money.  Catch the thieves that drive up the cost of merhandise.............except the part about publishing.  It does not matter if it's to employees or to the custormers..........that right just does not exist in the United States.  You can monitor and record but only "publish"  what's been monitored to authorities after you determine that some event or crime warrants the disclosure.  You have to make a complaint to the authorities to give them the "evidence"..........and sometimes that evidence will be rejected due to the disclosure of private information.  For instance, say your video cameras caught a woman shop lifting underwear by monitoring the changing rooms............do you think you can publish that video to anyone other than the law enforcement authorities (and then only after the complaint is made)?  You can't.

 

There are reasonable expectations of privacy.  Linden Lab laid out what that expectation is in the ToS (very cleary, by the way).  You can't decide that you can circumvent (or trump) that law just because you told someone that "we monitor everything".  And worse "we allow everyone to monitor everything and report it to us".  You're just flat wrong.  And I'd AR you in a minute if you did it to me.........regardless of your signs plastered at every nick and cranny of your sim.  You just don't have that right.........sim owner doesn't make that any different.

 

And.  Do you know how easy it is to edit (or even completely fabricate) an IM chat log?  That's just as important as anything else when it comes to disclosing chat logs.

 

 

[Solar Legion]

Peggy, your example is the orange to my apple.

Instead, try as example relating to electronic content, such as the logs from a chat room, an audio tape made of a telephone conversation ... and you'll be in the same ball park.

And why, yes, such a law does exist here in the United States. It is covered under the laws regulating the recording of conversations! That is all a chat log is - a conversation!

Why yes, I know how easy it is to edit a chat log - thanks for the straw man though! If Linden Lab had been smart and set in rpvisions for the distribution of chat logs among those who administrate areas (be it an entire sim or just a parcel on said sim) then those in the administrative position could get multiple copies of the same log, compare them for inconsitencies and then request a copy of the log from the accused.

Further, had Linden Lab been smart about this, they could have allowed for the use of monitoring devices to record the chat into an account which only the primary administrator has access to. Ditto for script memory and such other types.

I do find it cute that so many find the idea that they might actually have to be mindful of not acting like a prat to be so utterly distasteful.

It would be wonderful if such people were the ones punished by Linden Lab for attempting to get their revenge for being ejected or banned from a sim/parcel by reporting what is - in essence - an integral part of administration.

Screenshots, chat logs, even script information (if not properly set up) can be fabricated Peggy. This does not mean that they cannot be used as evidence to help the administration of a sim/parcel concerning disputes or other issues.

Linden Lab has tied one hand behind all of our backs - in direct defiance of present laws (which, by the by, normally trump such an abusive ToS. After all, a company Terms of Service cannot be used to circumvent laws, as many I know have proven when dealing with companies such as Microsoft and Adobe).

"But the ToS doesn't prevent you from posting such information outside the service!"

I have read/heard this so many times it isn't even funny anymore ... In fact, the ignorance of such people making that statement (and similar) to the rigors of actually, you know, being an administrator and trying to manage all those who work for you ... is utterly appaling. The simple fact of the matter is that some users will actually try and report anything which seems to suggest that a conversation they had ... was shared.

The other simple facts of the matter? Posting up such information on a web page opens that information up to search engines. Not everyone has the same external messengers and expecting people to jump through hoops just to share what is needed data concerning an issue at hand is utterly ridiculous.

Anyone banned/ejected from a sim/parcel thanks to the strength of what was in one (or more) shared logs needs to grow a spine, grow up a bit, contact the sim/parcel administrator, request that he/she look over their own copy of the log .... and then send it over.

This business of reporting people, just to get even for being banned or ejected, needs to stop. It's childish.