mesh - highest lod doesn't rez at all - cause traffic shaping by internet provider

[MaxTux Wonder]

Meshes are really slow to rez even if the data are still in cache (becouse rezzed before), and the highest lod (level of definition) does not rez at all.

This problem is caused by traffic shaping by internet provider.

If your provider apply traffic shaping on your internet connection (streaming traffic shaping), some meshes will not rez at the Highest LOD.

Why?

Depens on how big is the data streaming of the mesh + the limits of data streaming applyed by your provider in the traffic shaping.

If the limit of data streaming is 200kbs and the mesh LOD is 201kb the mesh will not rez

 

Vote on jira:

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2810?focusedCommentId=303881#comment-303881

[Medhue Simoni]

Hmm, I've had this happen, but only on rigged meshes. None of the LODs would load except the lowest LOD. Detaching and reattaching fixed this. I hope we are talking about the same issue.

[MaxTux Wonder]

happened to me on rigged meshes, but dethaching doesn't help, don't know if is the same issue.

 

if you have streaming problems in your internet connection, then you will have mesh streaming problems too! (until is not cached)

[Chosen Few]

Was it really necessary to post this twice?   See my reply to your other thread.

[MaxTux Wonder]

thank you very much for partecipating in this topic.

 

Actually the other topic is for builders that want to list all the reported jiras issues for voting.

 

This one is only about traffic shaping, but i really appreciate.

[Voodoo Radek]

Greetings MaxTux Wonder.

Few weeks ago i discovered your nice avatar in marketplace, and i watched the videos you uploaded to youtube showing it. I am not sure if you remember me, i commented a couple of times on your video. We were discussing about the poly amount you used to make your avatar (you claim you use over 40K faces, that is maybe just the avatar without the attachments?). My point of view was (and still is) that its too much detail to a platform like SL. Gently, you posted a video response showing that the rendering cost of the avatar was low and green. I suggested my feeling that the rendering cost tool was broken and you responded that it wasnt likely. Not long time after that you posted the jira SH-2584. It seems that lindens changed the render cost algorithm to show a more realistic count and measure things that previous viewers didnt, like the rigging cost in performance, and you avatar was costing too much. These days we were talking as well about the recommended level of detail of imported avatars by LL, which was certainly much less that yours have.

After discussing this points a bit, you deleted my comments. I have nothing to say against that, after all it is the way you have to show your stuff to your purchasers. But i think that feel in a different way to something is perfectly legitimate, that why i respond you today in this forum.

I have nothing against you Wax, as blender newbie i just can speculate how hard have been to you the nice work you have done, i admire and respect A LOT you for it. But certainly i keep thinking that every creator should be conscious of what he sell. On my part, i am conscious and i feel responsible as well. Maybe you will respond me referring to sculpts its inefficiency and how bad have been used. And i will give you the reason, and now we have a efficient way to build everything thanks to years of effort from LL and the community that gave feedback inside and outside the beta grid. I think that you told me on one of your comments that you was a part of that group of residents. Of my part, i am very thankful for your support on this. Was a huge project and a long-awaited arrival, we all deserves it and should make the best effort to take the benefits of Mesh. I think that the worst we can do is make a bad use of it, and blame to linden for the issues that they already are warning us with their tips.. its not fair. SL is far from be the perfect the platform technically speaking, and some people have to suffer more than others the effect of the lag cause by the inefficient stuff, as sculpts shows. They certainly can mute (if they know the trick) and forget about the problem but being realistic: that wont improve our laggy universe.

I am not asking you remove your work of anywhere. Far for that, i think that the magic of this is that you can create anything with no limits, just the technical ones. I just would want you to be aware of the those limits and cares not just about your costumers, but every residents.

Edited to correct typos.

[Kwakkelde Kwak]

---

Voodoo Radek wrote:

It seems that lindens changed the render cost algorithm to show a more realistic count and measure things that previous viewers didnt, like the rigging cost in performance,

---

From what I've seen in the latest viewer, rigged mesh gets a bonus, not a penalty. If I wear an object and look at the draw weight, it matches the display weight of when it's rezzed on the ground. This is the case for anything I've tried besides rigged mesh. That has a number substantially lower when worn. Going by the "primcost" on the marketplace, the display weight of Maxtux' avatar is 327000. The 40000 LL recommends is low in my opinion, although with all mesh far from impossible. But almost 8 times over that?

I've seen (non-rigged) avatars worth nearly 60k vertices (so around 120k faces) with proper LOD behaviour and a primcost of no more than 20. My guess is the avatar could use some clever LOD models and the weight can go down by a factor 10.

I completely agree that the model looks great, I just agree some more that there can be made some big improvements which will benefit SL as a whole (or at least everyone in the same and surrounding sims)

[Chosen Few]

40,000 faces?!!!  No wonder it won't rez.   That's an absurd amount of polygons.

Max, so you're aware, the general rule of thumb for realtime character models is they should be around 6000 polygons.  The SL avatar itself is already higher than that (partly because it has so many morphs, and partly because it was badly modeled in some areas), at a hair over 7000.  Anything else you add to it just increases it that much further.

Add your 40,000 the the 7000 that's already there, and you're talking nearly 50,000 polygons!  That's just insane, no other way to put it.

If you want to experience trouble-free operation in any realtime simulation, learn to create proper realtime models. 

[Voodoo Radek]

---

Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:

From what I've seen in the latest viewer, rigged mesh gets a bonus, not a penalty. If I wear an object and look at the draw weight, it matches the display weight of when it's rezzed on the ground. This is the case for anything I've tried besides rigged mesh. That has a number substantially lower when worn. Going by the "primcost" on the marketplace, the display weight of Maxtux' avatar is 327000. The 40000 LL recommends is low in my opinion, although with all mesh far from impossible. But almost 8 times over that?

I've seen (non-rigged) avatars worth nearly 60k vertices (so around 120k faces) with proper LOD behaviour and a primcost of no more than 20. My guess is the avatar could use some clever LOD models and the weight can go down by a factor 10.

I completely agree that the model looks great, I just agree some more that there can be made some big improvements which will benefit SL as a whole (or at least everyone in the same and surrounding sims)

---

Greetings Kwakkelde Kwak.

I think you misunderstood me, my fault: my english is rusty. When saying "the recommended level of detail of imported avatars by LL" i dont meant to be 40000 faces. And i dont meant to be the total amount of faces of every LOD either. To clarify, i extracted this on the Mesh volunters group: -[11:17] Nyx Linden: a fully dressed avatar should be under 10K at highest LOD-. In the Second life wiki, we can see that a very detaled avatar at the eyes of linden labs is gonna take no more than 15k faces. Anyway, i think that the number that Max's avatar reflect (327000) have nothing to do with the primcount, as we can learn in the jira i posted before.

In my poly of view, 40k faces is an obsece amount of polys to SL. When i have 35k i start to suffer a noticable loose of speed in my blender. With 60k i have a nice lag. Thats the reason i wouldnt want to be in the same sim with one or two of Max's avatars. My actual PC just cant hadle it.

I am not a linden, and i am not a viewer developer either. I have not idea how the viewer haddles to render things, so i just can express opinions and ideas. But certainly i know that every thing in SL should be sended and received by servers networks and viewers, a that make this platform much more sensible to ineficient stuff that just a normal offline game. Thats why i will take every linden tip they give us, they should know better than anyone how this work.

To finish i will enclose a website with a comparison of the poly amount of some games. I dont know if its real or not, but maybe can clarify some points.

http://www.gameartisans.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23520

 

Sorry for the typos, not time to check this time.

[MaxTux Wonder]

i really appreciate all the interventions in my topic

 

Anyway the topic here is about "streaming traffic shaping by internet providers" if you want to talk about "heavyness of avatars" please take a look on this new topic i've opened

 

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Rendering-cost-Mesh-VS-Prims-sculpty-who-is-better/td-p/1312849

[Chosen Few]

It's all the same thing, Max.  If you've got an absurdly high amount of polygons in your mesh, then you've also got an absurdly high amount of data in the file that describes it.  Use a reasonable amount, and the file will be small enough that it won't be blocked.

[MaxTux Wonder]

Sorry maybe i wasn't exhaustive, i try explain it in another way:

 

The problem i've described in the jira is about traffic shaping by my internet provider, so any stream, the music stream, the video stream and the mesh stream have problems.

 

Of course i changed ISP, was easy for me. I've the knowledge to recognise a problem and to solve it myself, so the problem for me it's solved.

But tomorrow will happen to you the same thing and with you all the people affected by traffic shaping.

People that not necessarly will understand what's happening, and just will trash SL in a can 

 

My avies have a "avatar rendering cost" lower than a regular avie in SL please check it out in this topic:

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Rendering-cost-Mesh-VS-Prims-sculpty-who-is-better/td-p/1312...

 

Why? check how much faces a standard sl avies (without attachments) costs:

 

9000 faces for a base avatar with SL base hair (not prims) and base skirt.

7776 without SL hair and SL skirt

 

Any sculpty you attach to your avie adds 1024 vertices to your avie so it's very easy to go over 100k faces on a standard SL avatar, what you need is just a couple of sculpy boots and fancy hair.

Example of sculpty:

 

But is something i've explained better in the other topic, i would very appreciate if you reply in the other one and leave this topic clean for people that actually have problems with traffic shaping.

 

And if you wondering why my avie has more than 9000 faces (9000 faces is what a standard SL avatar has)

this is why:

Real feet, real muscles: bicipes, pecs, deltoids, not like a standard sl avie (with muscles painted on the texture), and yes it costs more, if you don't like it just don't buy it.

But anyway his rendering cost is lower than other avatars in SL.

 

I wondering why you don't go to Prims/sculpty builders to tell them that their avies are too much big in terms of polycount and rendering cost... 

(my mesh avatar on the right)

I guess you are trying to vilificate my work for some reasons, but you can try better

Anyway i think it's very sad to see someone vilificate a person that actually is trying to make SL better with costant bug reporting, but probably you have your reasons  

[Kwakkelde Kwak]

---

Voodoo Radek wrote:

I think you misunderstood me, my fault: my english is rusty. When saying "

the recommended level of detail of imported avatars by LL" i dont meant to be 40000 faces. And i dont meant to be the total amount of faces of every LOD either.

---

Neither did I, the number is confusing because it was used for faces earlier in the thread. I said 40000 for draw weight, which is what LL recommends with the new system. With a 40k faced avatar you will have a hard time staying under that number.

---

Voodoo Radek wrote:

Anyway, i think that the number that Max's avatar reflect (327000) have nothing to do with the primcount, as we can learn in the jira i posted before.

---

The primcount or landimpact and the current draw weight have got everything to do with eachother, they are calculated using the very same data. High primcount on an object? That's often because of overuse of geometry. That is also reflected by the draw weight. (and vice versa). high primcounts can also be because of physics ofcourse, but the display weight is most definately linked to the primcount.

[Chosen Few]

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

The problem i've described in the jira is about

traffic shaping by my internet provider

, so any stream, the music stream, the video stream and the mesh stream have problems.

 

Of course

i changed ISP, was easy for me

. I've the knowledge to recognise a problem and to solve it myself, so the problem for me it's solved.

But tomorrow will happen to you the same thing **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" border="0" alt=":smileyhappy:" title="Smiley Happy" /> and with you all the people affected by traffic shaping.

People that not necessarly will understand what's happening, and just will trash SL in a can **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" border="0" alt=":smileyhappy:" title="Smiley Happy" />

... i would very appreciate if you reply in the other one and leave this topic clean for people that actually have problems with traffic shaping.

---

Once again, Max, it's all related.  There's no such thing as "keeping it clean" when one topic is the direct cause of the other.  These things don't exist in isolation.

You said you want to make sure people dont' blame SL itself when their ISP is interfering with it.  That's good.  But has it occurred to you that just as many people will just as ignorantly blame the system when they try to use models that are not suiatable for realtime usage?  If someone is walking around with an extra 40,000 polygons strapped to their back, that can be BIG problem. 

You seem pretty adamant that we focus on streaming in this thread, rather than rendering cost.  Even though I think it's silly to treat the two subjects separately, since all factors are inseparably related, I'll go ahead and humor you.  Let's talk about why sculpties and prims are likely able to get past your ISP's filtering, while a high-poly mesh might not.

40,000 polygons, is equivalent to roughly 20 individual sculpties.  Because the viewer is already hard-coded with the requisite knowledge to draw literally every possible sculpty, the only data that has to be streamed are the sculpt maps, which are just a handful of kilobytes each.  So, if your ISP is restricting traffic purely by file size, as you claimed was the case, there's no reason any sculpty should ever be blocked.  Whether you're talking one sculpty, or ten, or a hundred, or a thousand, they'll all trickle in, just fine.

A single mesh file with 40,000 polygons in it, on the other hand, is going to be one huge file.  It's several megabytes worth of data.  The file itself is going to be compressed, so it will be a bit smaller than if it were uncompressed raw data, but still, it's going to be quite large. likely at least several hundred times the size of any single sculpt map.

All of that is entirely within the context you asked for, Max, all about network traffic.

 

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

And if you wondering why my avie has more than 9000 faces...

---

If it's really only 9000-ish polygons, then that's fine.  I'd still look for ways to reduce it, of course, but 9000 is hardly the end of the world for a full body. 

I had been under the impression from the other comments in the thread, that it was over 40,000 polygons.  I'm sorry if I misunderstood.

I do have to ask, when you say "faces", do you mean triangles or quads?  If it's quads, then 9000, would be 18,000 triangles, which is a lot.  If it's 9000 triangles, I'd say you're fine.

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

I wondering why you don't go to Prims/sculpty builders to tell them that their avies are too much big in terms of polycount and rendering cost...

---

Who says I don't?  Max, I've been telling people, practically screaming at people, for YEARS now, to pay attention to their poly counts.  My response to you in this regard is no different than it's been to everyone else I've ever spoken with on any efficiency-related subject for the past nine years I've been in SL. 

You're absolutely right that the amount of sculpties and prims that people pile on is ridiculous, and that (well made, and efficicent) mesh is THE solution to that problem.  But if someone lumps 40,000 polygons into an avatar suit, just because they think it entitles them to say, "Hey, if this were made of sculpties or prims, it would be even worse," doesn't put that person in the right, in any way.  The lesser of two evils is still an evil. 

SL is a realtime environment, not a film, not a static image.  As such, content for it must be modeled with realtime constraints in mind, no matter what the medium.

 

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

I guess you are trying to vilificate my work for some reasons, but you can try better **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" border="0" alt=":smileyhappy:" title="Smiley Happy" />

Anyway i think it's very sad to see someone vilificate a person that actually is trying to make SL better with costant bug reporting, but probably you have your reasons **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" border="0" alt=":smileyhappy:" title="Smiley Happy" />

---

No one's attempting to vilify you, or your work, Max.  ("Vilificate" is not a word, by the way.)  We're having a discussion about poly counts, and associated data amounts, nothing more.  Simply stating that you should keep your poly counts doesn't mean you're a bad person if you don't. 

There was no personal judgment in anything I've said here, or anything I ever will say to you on this forum.  Any interpretation as such is entirely your own.

[MaxTux Wonder]

You can do what i do? curious i don't see your store on marketplace, either inworld...

There is a big difference between talking and doing

 

Quote: Why sculpties and prims are able to get past ISP's filtering, while a high-poly mesh might not?

 

becouse are single objects.

 

If i cut a big mesh in smaller objects, taffic shaping will not affects the streaming.

And this is a real easy thing to understand.

 

I try to explain it better

video streaming will not work with traffic shaping

audio streaming will not work with traffic shaping

 

maybe this way is easier to understand.

 

Quote:"No one's attempting to vilify you, or your work, Max.  ("Vilificate" is not a word, by the way.)"

 

Right, i guess you just want to tell me how i must to do my work.

 

And it's really funny to hear that from someone that has not an inworld store. Arrogance comes with incompetence. Of course.

i'm quoting here: "One of the best avatars I've seen in my 3 years on SL, and it is worth every L to get it!"

this is one of the reviews of my avie on marketplace.

 

Were you been in those 3 years? I mean... if it's that easy to do an avie like mine.

 

Those are reviews to my products:

Quote: " Amazing detail and perfectly linked to the skeleton, is very fine and does not make stranger to the animation."

Quote:" This avatar is exquisite, magnificent, beautiful, masculine, and overall gorgeous. Not only is it seamless and rigged perfectly but the textures are high resolution. It works perfectly well with my AO."

Quote: " A work like this can only be rewieved with five star this avi is absolutely fantastic greit job congratulations to the creator really^^"

Quote: " buy now ! hurry up !!"

Quote: " This avatar looks FREAKIN' AMAZING. Wish I could give it more than 5 stars! Thanks! ;3"

Quote: " It looks epic, it is epic. The avatar, the armor, all is just so excellently crafted. I use it every now and then and always get compliments by it. Excellent job! :3"

Quote: " This mesh Avatar is just awesome. It has superb quality body and armor (see the pictures!). It even fits with all kinds of animation sl offers (Sit or dance , do what you want this avatar matches perfectly). I have to say it is absolutely worth its price."

 

Where are your reviews?

 

What you think, i've to follow your "suggestions", or i've to follow my customers desires?

 

mmm let me think... oh yes of course i will do a 9000 faces model, like the standard SL avatar just becouse of you...

The new mesh era

[Chosen Few]

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

You can do what i do? curious

i don't see

your store on marketplace, either inworld...

---

I dont' sell off the shelf products in SL, Max.  I only do project work for clients who can afford me.  My clientele includes video game companies, motion picture studios, television networks, media companies, government agencies, universities, corporations, small businesses, and occasionally, individuals.  I've been doing this for a living for a long time, and I do NOT work for micropayments.  I've got no reason at this time to have a presence in the SL marketplace.

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

There is a big difference between talking and doing

---

If it makes you feel better to believe all I do is talk, you're welcome to your ignorant, closed-minded opinion.  I'd rather you take the opportunity to learn from a professional who freely volunteers time to help an amateur such as yourself, and asks nothing in return.  But if you'd rather not listen, there's not much I can do about that.

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

Quote

: Why sculpties and prims are able to get past ISP's filtering, while a high-poly mesh might not?

 

becouse are single objects.

 

If i cut a big mesh in smaller objects, taffic shaping

will not affects

the streaming.

And this is a real easy thing to understand.

 

I try to explain it better

video streaming will not work with traffic shaping

audio streaming will not work with traffic shaping

 

maybe this way is easier to understand.

---

That's exactly what I said, Max.  You're agreeing with me, yet you appear to be making it sound like you're arguing.  I don't understand why.

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

Right, i guess you just want to tell me how i must to do my work.

---

Do your work any way you want.  But if you choose to ignore the good advice of those more experienced than you, then when you have problems, you have only yourself to blame.

 

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

And it's really funny to hear that from someone that has not an inworld store. Arrogance comes with incompetence. Of course.

---

You really think having an in-world store in SL is the mark of a great modeler?  Uh, OK, whatever, man.

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

i'm

quoting here

: "

One of the best avatars I've seen in my 3 years on SL, and it is worth every L to get it!

"

this is one of the reviews of my avie on marketplace.

 

Were you been in those 3 years? I mean... if it's that easy to do an avie like mine.

 

Those are reviews to my products:

Quote

: " 

Amazing detail and perfectly linked to the skeleton, is very fine and does not make stranger to the animation

."

Quote

:" 

This avatar is exquisite, magnificent, beautiful, masculine, and overall gorgeous. Not only is it seamless and rigged perfectly but the textures are high resolution. It works perfectly well with my AO

."

Quote

: "

 A work like this can only be rewieved with five star this avi is absolutely fantastic greit job congratulations to the creator really^^"

Quote

: " 

buy now ! hurry up !!

"

Quote

: " 

This avatar looks FREAKIN' AMAZING. Wish I could give it more than 5 stars! Thanks! ;3

"

Quote

: "

 It looks epic, it is epic. The avatar, the armor, all is just so excellently crafted. I use it every now and then and always get compliments by it. Excellent job! :3

"

Quote

: " 

This mesh Avatar is just awesome. It has superb quality body and armor (see the pictures!). It even fits with all kinds of animation sl offers (Sit or dance , do what you want this avatar matches perfectly). I have to say it is absolutely worth its price.

"

---

I'm glad you've got excited customers.  That's great.  None of that negates any of what I've said, though.

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

What you think, i've to follow your "suggestions", or i've to follow my customers desires?

---

Do both, Max.  99% of your customers don't know or care about how these things work.  The care how it looks and how it performs.  If you can deliver a superior performing product that looks just as good or better than what you've already been doing so far, your customers will be even happier than they already are.

I don't understand why you're being so defensive.

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

mmm let me think... oh yes of course i will do a 9000 faces model, like the standard SL avatar just becouse of you...

The new mesh era

---

So now you're saying it's not 9000?  A minute ago you said it was.  You're not making any sense.

In any case, don't do anything because of ME.  Do it because of the facts of how realtime 3D simulations work.  Facts, as someone once said, are stubborn things.  It doesn't matter who presents them.  What matters is that they're true.

[Voodoo Radek]

---

Kwakkelde Kwak wrote

Neither did I, the number is confusing because it was used for faces earlier in the thread. I said 40000 for draw weight, which is what LL recommends with the new system. With a 40k faced avatar you will have a hard time staying under that number.

---

Oh, i was the one confused, i get it now. I agree.

---

The primcount or landimpact and the current draw weight have got everything to do with eachother, they are calculated using the very same data. High primcount on an object? That's often because of overuse of geometry. That is also reflected by the draw weight. (and vice versa). high primcounts can also be because of physics ofcourse, but the display weight is most definately linked to the primcount.

---

Yes. obviously the higher is the prim count of an object, the higher is the draw weight. But what i meant was this:

 

Nyx Linden added a comment - 16/Dec/11 11:11 AM

We changed the render cost algorithm over to the render weight algorithm, which is scaled differently than the previous version.

Neither set of numbers was intended to represent a cost of 1 per prim.

 

---

Chosen Few wrote:

40,000 polygons, is equivalent to roughly 20 individual sculpties.  Because the viewer is already hard-coded with the requisite knowledge to draw literally every possible sculpty, the only data that has to be streamed are the sculpt maps, which are just a handful of kilobytes each.  So, if your ISP is restricting traffic purely by file size, as you claimed was the case, there's no reason any sculpty should ever be blocked.  Whether you're talking one sculpty, or ten, or a hundred, or a thousand, they'll all trickle in, just fine

---

Greetings Chosen.

Thank you, i find that tecnical info very interesting, i want to understand it properly.. Is it correct to say then that sculpties are more efficient/better to the viewer in terms of streaming cost, but worse in terms of rendering compared to mesh, due to the limits to make the most of every face?

 

Hello Max.

Sorry for break into your post on this way, but you have to know that my last intention is attack you. I would say that is not the intention of anyone of the participants on your threat. I just wanted to express my opinion on here, and it seem than i am not alone. I would say too that your way to measure the knowledge of a person by the things he do/talk/sell is a bit risky and yes, a bit arrogant. Does not make sense bring here you reviews and "challenge" someone writte a bad one for your product, when everyone know that ones should buy a product to writte a review for it. I think that no one is asking you follow any suggestion, we just suggest. I will remark again that 10000 faces avatars is a suggestion of LL, not ours. I think they know what they are talking about.

[MaxTux Wonder]

Oh sure! how dumb i'm i?

 

Quote: " My clientele includes video game companies, motion picture studios, television networks, media companies, government agencies, universities, corporations, small businesses, and occasionally, individuals."

 

You work for Square Enix of course! Tell me can you link me your works or yours are just words?

 

This is my blog with my works and my portofolio:

www.hokmaph.net/blog

 

Of course you work for for Square Enix, Universal, Government, University, corporations, small business, and you have time to come here into this forum just to critique my work... i'm amazed how much your time is worth!

 

I'm totally trusting your words! how i couldn't? someone that doesn't knows that a SL avatar is 9000 faces, is for sure an expert!

And... i see your open public profile on web:

 

So... i don't understand, you work for Square Enix, Universal, Government, University, corporations, small business, and you have time to do "long term texturing/building work" in SL, and to come here on the forum just to critique my work.

I'm totally buying it.

 

Yes, sure.

 

Tell me, i'm curious, how it's to live without shame? 

 

Quote:"you're welcome to your ignorant, closed-minded opinion."

I'm ready to beg your pardon when i will look at your online portfolio, with your email, AS I HAVE on my website, were i will send a message and i will ask if the portofolio is from "Chosen Few a player of secondlife".

You have more experience than me? Show me! i'm ready to kneel in front of your greatness!

Becouse you know when someone is trolling on a forum giving "advices" and tell to other REAL builders how they should do their work, (even when REAL builders are trying to help Second Life to get better with bug reporting), IF this "someone" does not shows up HIS OWN work, is just a troll/liar/arrogant person.

So what are you? A troll/liar/arrogant or are you a real 3D artist? Show to me with facts.

 

Quote: "You really think having an in-world store in SL is the mark of a great modeler?  Uh, OK, whatever, man."

 

Show me your business, and all your great works, than come back, with facts, not with words.

 

Quote: "99% of your customers don't know or care about how these things work. "

 

Really?

 

How dare you. Don't try to say a word about my customers! Who the hell you think you are? You really come here, offend my work, my customers without shame? 

 

I Was a Blender teacher for deaf people in italy:

http://vimeo.com/12446536

http://www.hokmaph.net/Guida-a-Blender-2.5.html

 

I Wrote and illustrated 2 books:

http://www.hokmaph.net/apotheosis/

 

I made a Web-comic:

http://www.hokmaph.net/carotino/

 

And now i'm doing (and i'm quoting) "One of the best avatars I've seen in my 3 years on SL"

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/67416

https://picasaweb.google.com/111473454595250596037/WolfDemigod11

https://picasaweb.google.com/111473454595250596037/TigerDemigod12

 

Tell me, who the hell are you? Over a forum troll i mean.

 

[MaxTux Wonder]

Quote: "I would say too that your way to measure the knowledge of a person by the things he do/talk/sell is a bit risky and yes, a bit arrogant."

I would say that your way to measure the knowledge of a peson just on words and not on FACTS, it's just a bit stupid and yes, a bit nonsense.

9k faces, is the standard avatar on SL. I can repeat it again and again, maybe was not clear the first time i told this, but i really don't know how to make it clear. I used pictures, but probably is not enough. I try to post the picture again:

No feet, no muscles, no details, is a very basic avie, and not what my customers are asking for.

And i'm still wondering why people like you THAT ARE NOT MY CUSTOMERS are complaining about my work in this topic that it's supposed to help people about streaming!

And... i toke a look on your profile and you don't have a store either:

I guess you can bring your personal problems and unsatisfactions somewhere else instead of bothering someone that is actually trying to help people with streaming problems in this topic.

I opened a different topic to talk about your personal unsatisfaction, but of course, arrogant people don't appreciate a nice favor.

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Rendering-cost-Mesh-VS-Prims-sculpty-who-is-better/td-p/1312849 

For just making you understand how much you don't know what you are talking about:

Only the "left calf" on Tonktastic (great store) boots are 25 scuplties, (1024 vertices and 2048 tris faces) 25x2048=51200 is more than my entire avie, only the left calf, i repeat it becouse maybe it's not clear: ONLY ON THE LEFT CALF.

 

But of course you thought well not to go to bother the Tonktastic creator becouse only his boots have 29 sculpty each feat and 25 each calf

Yes you read right, only the single left foot is 59k tris faces. More than my entire avie.

Yes a naked avie 9000 faces + 59000 left foot + 59000 right foot + 51200 left calf + 51200 right calf = 229400 faces

A naked avie with very nice boots 229400 faces

You thought it was better to annoy a mesh creator, that actually is trying to help people and to report bugs to make sl better.

[Medhue Simoni]

@Chosen - staying on Topic is helpful. Every thread degrading to critiques of polycounts is not. Granted, some threads literally beg to be countered with "you're doing it wrong", but not every thread.

You really should actually sell something if you are going to give advice to people that sell products. The comment about micropayments shows a true lack of economics understanding. See, me, I don't answer to any1 but myself. I make what I want all the time. I don't have to spend 1 minute pandering to any1. If I don't feel like doing anything tomorrow, It doesn't really matter. If I don't feel like working for a month. It doesn't matter. Why? Cause I'm gonna get between 100 - 200 micropayments every single day whether I work or not, and that is just for SL. Of course, you'd be hard pressed to see me not working. That's cause i love what I do, and it's actually more fun than playing golf all day. At least, most of the time.

[Chosen Few]

---

Voodoo Radek wrote:

Greetings Chosen.

Thank you, i find that tecnical info very interesting, i want to understand it properly.. Is it correct to say then that sculpties are more efficient/better to the viewer in terms of streaming cost, but worse in terms of rendering compared to mesh, due to the limits to make the most of every face?

---

Good question, Max.  The answer is potentially both yes and no, depending on the specific models in question.  I'll explain.

If we're talking about two identical models, one described by a sculpt map, and the other by full mesh data, the sculpt map is smaller, and therefore more efficient in terms of streaming.  At the rendering level, the two models would be exactly the same, so relative efficiency in that regard is a non-issue

If we're talking about two outwardly identical shapes, one as a sculpty, and the other as arbitrary mesh, then the arbitrary mesh could come out ahead on both fronts.  It won't always, but it COULD.  Depending on the particular shape in question, and on the skill level of the person who made it, the arbitrary mesh could be built far more efficiently than the sculpty, or less efficiently, or exactly the same.

For a simple example, let's say we're talking about a cube.  As an efficiently made mesh, it would have 12 triangles, 8 vertices.  As a regular sculpty, it would have 2048 triangles, 1089 vertices. Let's examine how it breaks down from there:

 

• Render-wise, the arbitrary mesh is obviously about 150 times more efficient than the sculpty.  

 

• Streaming-wise, things aren't quite as straight-forwardly simple.  Before compression, obviously every sculpt map is 24 bits per pixel, or 98,304 bits in total, for a 64x64 pixel map.  If my understanding of the mesh mathematics is accurate (and hopefully Drongle or somoene else will come chime in to correct me if it's not), it's 128 bits per vertex.  Assuming that's accurate, then the mesh cube would be 1536 bits, which would put the mesh at 64 times the streaming efficiency of the sculpty (not accounting for compression, of course).  

In that example, the mesh wins by miles on all fronts.  But considering how much more data per vertex must be transmitted for a mesh than for a sculpty, it doesn't take much to reach the break-even point.  Assuming my numbers are accurate (and again, hopefully someone will correct me if I'm off), then all other things being equal, a mesh with 768 vertices equals the streaming cost of one regular sculpty.  For the comparison to work, all four LOD's must be included in that 768, since all LOD's are automatically included with each sculpty.

The rendering cost of whatever chunk of 768 would make up each LOD is obviously far less than that of the much higher number of  vertices in each sculpty LOD. 

So, for a one to one comparison, meshes can become relatively inefficient, pretty fast, in terms of streaming.  But as far as rendering, it takes a lot of inefficiency on the part of the human maker to produce a mesh that is as costly as a sculpty.

When we go beyond one to one comparisons, out to complex shapes that would require many sculpties to make, that's where meshes begin to beat the pants of of sculpties, in every measurable way.

Here are some quick examples: 

 

1.  I was hired a couple of years ago to make these sculpty shoes:

These are around 40 sculpties each, which needless to say, is pretty obscene.  80 sculpties is almost 184,000 polygons bombarding the renderer, and 80 sculpt maps is almost 8 million bits (before compression) to stream.  That's sick.

If I were to redo these shoes as mesh models, I could make each one for around 2500 triangles, 1600-ish vertices, with the same apparent amount of detail, or quite a bit less, if I employ a bit of trickery to fudge a few things.  5000 triangles, while still way more than I'd choose to expend on shoes, is roughly 35 times as render efficient as all those sculpties, and the 200,000-ish bits it takes to describe the vertices is 40 times as stream-efficient as all those sculpt maps.  Plus, I could do the whole thing with just one or two textures, instead of 80, which means the texture load would 40 or 80 times less, increasing both render efficiency and stream efficiency that much more.

Even if we divide the savings by four, to cover the four LOD's, it's still around an order of magnitude on all fronts.  That's HUGE.

 

2.  Here's a prim build I did for CBS, a few years back:

That bridge consists of around 5000 prims, including all 1100+ buttons, all 72 video screens, and literally every detail that existed on the original set of the show.  The piece was filmed in HD, to be presented on a GIANT video screen at the most important electronics show in the world, so it had to be exactly right, down to every last detail.  (80 hours of work in 4 days, after which it took 3 months for my sleep cycle to return to normal, long story.)

I'm currently working on a mesh version, which I'll probably end up offering up to the in-world Trekkie community (with the franchise's blessing).  When complete, the mesh will be around 10,000 tris. I don't know the exact amount of data streamed per prim (although I really should, come to think of it), so I can't speak to how the streaming costs will compare yet.  What I can say with certainty is that the 5,000 prims in the current in-world version add up to almost 600,000 tris, which means the mesh version will be at least 60 times as render efficient. 

 

3. Anyone remember CSI's infatuation with SL?

The chairs in this interrogation room were some of the very first sculpties ever in SL.  Sculpties came out during the same time period that we were working on this episode of CSI: NY (and man, were they a godsend at the time).  The chairs are six sculpties each.  (This was years before oblongs and non-sphere stitching types came along.) 

I have since created a mesh versions of the same chair design (took all of 5 minutes), for just 388 tris. That's almost 32 times the render efficiency, and about 12 times the stream-efficiency, for the model itself,  plus it's one texture instead of six.

 

4.  This one's the mother of all lagtastic avatars!

I used to use this a teaching example for NURBS-based sculpties in Maya, since it's got such a nice blend of organic curves and hard edges.  I never released it to the public, despite MANY passionate pleas from the various in-world Battlestar Galactica fan groups, mostly because I didn't want to be responsible for 400,000-polygon avatars walking around the grid.  When I finish he mesh replacement for this sculpty monstrosity, I expect its poly count will be around 12,000.  So, it will be 30 times as render-efficient and almost 100 times as stream-efficient, for the model itself.  Plus, it will have just a couple of textures instead of 180 individual ones.

 

5.  A swarm of sculpty versions of this dragonfly used to buzz around a private island, owned by one of my corporate clients:

 

I remade the entire island with mesh, relatively recently. I'd actually love to show the whole build, since it would make for a fantastic example of what can be done on a large scale with mesh, at a tremendous savings, across the board, over an equivalent prim/sculpty build.

The SL sculpty version of the dragonfly was 11 sculpties, if I remember correctly, plus 8 regular prims, for the four animated wings, and it had a total of five textures.  (It was made before oblongs existed.)  The mesh version is almost 16 times as render-efficient, and almost 6 times as stream-efficient, for the model itself, it's two textures, instead of  five.

 

I could go on, but I think you get the idea by now.

 

(Again, if my math is at all wrong, somoene please correct me.)

[Chosen Few]

Max, you've got me awfully confused.  When I first posted here, you expressed your displeasure because you felt my comments were off topic.  But now, after I've explained why my statements were in fact directly related to the original topic, you've chosen to completely derail the thread, by making it about ME. 

I'm not sure what you thought you were accomplishing with that, but again I'll humor you (for now), and respond.  Afterward, no matter what you've decided to think about me personally, I think we'd all appreciate it if we could get back to the real discussion, OK?

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

Oh sure! how dumb i'm i?

---

I have no idea how dumb you might or might not be.  We've never met.  All I know about you so far, from your behavior right here, is that you seem awfully childish.  You're expressing hostility for no apparent reason.

It would appear that any response other than "Wow, what super cool tiger man you made!" is going to be met with your ire.  I'm sorry if you came here expecting gratification, rather than actual discussion.  If that's what you want, I'd suggest you stick to your own blog, or to marketplace feedback, or wherever else such is to be found.  That's not what these forums are for.

You also seem particularly closed-minded.  You'd rather attack the messenger than listen to the message.  That's really sad.

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

You work for

Square Enix

of course!

---

No, I've never done any work for Square.  I'm not sure what gave you the impression that I had.

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

Tell me

can you link me your works or yours are just words?

---

Unlike you, Max, I don't feel the need to use these forums for self promotion.  If you'd like to discuss a project, and you can afford to pay RL rates, I'll be happy to send you a digital prospectus, showcasing any similar works I've done that would be demonstrative of the requisite skills for the project in question.  I do this for all my prospective clients.  

As for links, no, I won't be providing you with any here.  First of all, to do so would be an abuse of the forums.  I come here to teach and to learn, not to promote my business.

I've never had much of a Web presence, anyway.  Heck, my portfolio site has had the same "Under Construction" screen as its home page for at least the past five years.  Most of my business comes from referrals from existing clients, so I've never had any need to spend time building a proper site for advertising my services.  The same is true for many of my colleagues.  It's hardly unusual.

What free time I do have, I'd rather devote to other things (like coming here to these forums).

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

Of course you work for for

Square Enix

,

Universal

,

Government

,

University

, corporations, small business, and you have time to come here into this forum just to critique my work... i'm amazed how much your time is worth!

---

Once again, I've never worked for Square.  I have done quite a bit of work for NBC Universal, though, so you guessed right on that one.

In any case, dont' flatter yourself.  Critiquing your work is not why I come to these forums.  I haven't even critqued it, by the way.  Generally, I avoid critiquing anyone's work, until and unless they specifically ask for that.  At no time during this discussion did I offer any opinion whatsoever on the artistic merit of your work.  I simply stated that if you're using more polygons than you should, then it would be advantageous to cut it down to reasonable levels.  Why you seem so insistant on reading more into it than that, and so hellbent on trying to turn the discussion into something it's not, I have no idea.

Max, I've been volunteering on these forums for eight years now.  I've been doing it since long before you arrived, and I'll still be doing it long after you disappear.  I enjoy sharing with the community here, and most people are grateful for the help.  If you're so firmly convinced I don't know what I'm talking about, however, then feel free not to read my posts.  It'll be your loss, not mine.

 

As for what my time is worth, all I will tell you here is that my rates are in line with industry standards for what I do.  I don't disclose my income on forums, and neither should anyone else.  That's just not what this environment is for.  If you'd like a quote for a project, I'd be happy to supply you with one, via proper channels, just like I do for everyone else.

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

I'm totally trusting your words! how i couldn't?

someone that doesn't knows that a SL avatar is 9000 faces

, is for sure an expert!

---

I'm well aware of how many triangles are in the avatar model, Max.  What on earth gave you the impression I wasn't?  The only thing that has been unclear here is how many triangles are in the models YOU presented as examples.  First, they were 40,000.  Then they were 9,000.  Then they were some mysterious number other than 9,000 that you won't disclose.  You seem to be making things up as you go along.

For the record, the avatar body has 7176 triangles in it.  That's the figure I was citing when I said "a hair over 7000".  I did not want to confuse the subject by including the other parts.  This was for two important reasons:

First, the other parts didn't seem particularly relevant to the model you had built, since it was simply a body.  There was no point in drawing a comparison with parts you weren't seeking to replace.

Second, some of the other parts are extreme examples of what NOT to do when modeling, and I didn't think it prudent to draw attention to that during that particular part of our discussion.  The eyeballs, for example are 544 polys.  Each one is a 16x9 section half sphere.  If I ever delivered a characer model with eyeballs anywhere near that poly heavy, I'd be fired. All you really need for a convincing eyeball is  12x4 at most, or 84 trangles, barely a third of what's in the avatar eyes.  And don't even get me started on the stock hair.  It's a joke.  I could put 1020 polygons to MUCH bettter use.  The skirt was quite obviously a hasty add-on, made by someone other than whoever had made the original body model.*  It's incredibly badly designed, geometrically, absolutely the worst part of the whole thing.  It's the one part of the avatar that has too few polys, rather than too many.  Pull the 300 some odd extra ones out of the eyeballs, and put them into the skirt, and it could be much better suited to fit the body, and to animate properly, neither of which it actually does very well as is.

If you want the full breakdown, here it is:

• Head - 1844 tris
• Upper Body - 3688 tris
• Lower Body - 1654 tris
• Eyeballs - 544 tris
• Eyelashes - 46 tris
• Hair - 1020 tris
• Skirt - 294 tris
• Grand Total - 9090 tris

 

 * If the obvious geometric disparity between the skirt and the rest of the avatar isn't enough, then go with the history.  Skirts were added as a new feature several months after SL's initial launch.

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

So... i don't understand, you work for

Square Enix

, 

Universal

, 

Government

, 

University

, corporations, small business, and you have time to do "long term texturing/building work" in SL, and to come here on the forum just to critique my work.

---

For the third time, I've never done any work for Square.  For the second time, yes, I have done work for NBC Universal.

As for what it says in my SL profile, I'll offer two responses:

1.  I haven't updated it since maybe 2005.  That much is evidenced, by the antiquated prim build my avatar is standing in, in the picture.

2.  A lot of the work I get hired to do is SL work.  So, OF COURSE my profile indicates as much.  SL stuff isn't the only thing I do, of course, but SL is a significant part of it.

 

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

I'm totally buying it.

 

Yes, sure.

 

Tell me, i'm curious, how it's to live without shame?

---

Max, you can "buy" anything you like.  I really couldn't care less what you believe about ME. The facts are the facts, regardless of who I am, or who you are.  You can choose to operate in harmony with them, or you can ignore them and suffer the inevitible consequences, just as you have been.

For my part I know what I know, my clients know that I know it, and the countless thousands who I've helped via these forums and others, all know it, too.  If you don't want to count yourself among the latter, then as I said, that's your loss, not mine.

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

I'm ready to beg your pardon when i will look at your online portfolio,

with your email, AS I'VE,

were i will send a message and i will ask if the portofolio is from "Chosen Few a player of secondlife".

---

As I said, if you'd like to discuss a project, I'll be happy to supply you with a proposal, after we've discussed the project in some detail. If you accept the proposal, then we will excahnge RL contact information, and enter into a legally binding RL contract for the work.  That's how business is done in this industry.

However, if all you want is to make idiotic demands for proof that I am who I say I am, then I'm afraid the answer is no, I won't be supplying you with anything, other than friendly advice, here on the forums. I've got nothing to prove to you. If you can't accept facts as facts without knowing everything there is to know about whatever random person happened to mention them to you, that's a shame, for you.

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

You have more experience than me? Show me! i'm ready to kneel in front of your greatness!

---

I'm not in search of worship, Max.  My only purpose here was to try to help you out.  If you don't want the help, then as I said, that's your loss.  I will continue to offer the same advice, though, in the knowledge that a lot of forum readers will still benefit from it, even if the never actively post.

 

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

Becouse you know when someone is trolling on a forum giving "advices" and tell to other

REAL

builders how they should do their work, (even when REAL builders are trying to help Second Life to get better with bug reporting),

IF

this "someone" does not shows up

HIS OWN work

, is just a troll/liar/arrogant person.

---

Offering advice means being a troll?  Exactly what planet are you from, Max?  The trolls must be pretty different there than they are here.  Sounds like a neat place to visit.  Is the weather nice there this time of year?

 

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

Really?

 

How dare you.

Don't try to say a word about my customers!

Who the hell you think you are? You really come here, offend my work, my customers without shame?

---

Where did you get that from what I said, Max?  Are you certain you're entirely sane?

At no time did I say anything even remotely offensive about your work or your customers.  It is a plain and simple fact that the vast majority of consumers in SL don't know anything about how the underlying technology works.  That's neithe an insult or a compliment to anyone.  It's simply the way it works.

The same is true in all industries.  How many people who buy televisions know how televisions work?  How many people who buy cars understand how a car really works under the hood?  How many people who buy Corn Flakes know how cereal is made? 

It's no different for SL content, Max.  Heck, most of the content creators in SL have very little understanding of the realities of the environment they're creating it for.  Consumers know even less than that.  Again, that's not an insult to anyone, nor it is any kind of judgment, nor assessment of anyone's worth, nor anything of the kind.  It's simply a fact.

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

I Was a Blender teacher for deaf people in italy:

---

Good for you.  But what does that have to with anything we've discussed?

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

I Wrote and illustrated 2 books:

---

OK.  Again, what does this have to do with the topic at hand?

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

And now i'm doing (and i'm quoting) "

One of the best avatars I've seen in my 3 years on SL"

---

No doubt such an obviously praise-dependent individual as yourself assigns tremendous value to such comments.  I don't have any particular need for them, myself. 

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

Tell me, who the hell are you?

---

Who I am doesn't matter, Max.  The information is what's important.  The facts don't change just because a different person presents them.

 

---

MaxTux Wonder wrote:

Over a forum troll i mean.

---

Again, it sounds like the trolls must be pretty different where you're from.  Here on planet Earth, the people we consider to be trolls are those who would rather spend their time attacking somebody than discussing the pertinent facts of a thread topic.  Seems to me, you're the only one who's done that here.

When someone spends years making valuable contributions to a forum community, we Earthlings generally consider that person to be the opposite of a troll.  What do trolls do on your planet?

 

 

With all that out of the way, how about we get back on topic?

[MaxTux Wonder]

As i thought! No links. You are just a liar.

 

POST A LINK to your website, with your portfolio and your CONTACTS! AS I DID! i'm MASSIMO CIVITA AND THIS IS MY WEBSITE: WWW.HOKMAPH.NET

 

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU? WHAT THE HELL YOU WANT? YOU DON'T LIKE MY AVIES? DON'T BUY IT!

 

YOU THINK I'VE TO WORK AS YOU SAY I SHOULD?

WHO THE HELL YOU THINK YOU ARE TO GIVE ME ORDERS! (WITH THOSE RENDERINGS MADE IN 1993)

 

YOU ARE NOT HELPING WITH STREAMING PROBLEMS, THIS IS THE TOPIC FOR! ( YOU DON'T EVEN POSTED YOUR INTERNET PROVIDER, YOU TROLL)

YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT MY AVIES? YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT MESH FACES?

LOOK AT THIS TOPIC I'VE OPENED JUST FOR A TROLL LIKE YOU:

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Rendering-cost-Mesh-VS-Prims-sculpty-who-is-better/td-p/1312849

[Chosen Few]

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

@Chosen - staying on Topic is helpful. Every thread degrading to critiques of polycounts is not. Granted, some threads literally beg to be countered with "you're doing it wrong", but not every thread.

---

Medhue, I'm frankly very surprised at this comment from you.  You and I have had such productive discussions in the past.

As I tried to explain to Max, poly counts are directly related to streaming costs.  He's complaining about high-poly models being blocked by ISP traffic shaping.  If they were lower poly, they wouldn't be blocked.  It's that simple, and it 100% IS ON TOPIC!!!!

What is off topic, are these subsequent comments from both Max and you.

As for this "every thread" notion, all I can say is that when you exaggerate and generalize like that, it calls just everyhting else you have to say into question.  I post on these forums almost every day, on all manner of content creation topics.  Only a relative handful have been about poly counts. 

I realize you disagreed with me about what was a reasonable poly count for your sonic screwdriver, but that was weeks ago.  I can assure you, I've posted other things between then and now.  I'm sorry if you missed it.

 

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

You really should actually sell something if you are going to give advice to people that sell products. The comment about micropayments shows a true lack of economics understanding.

---

For the record. I sell things every day.  I just sell services that cost anywhere from a few hundred dollars to tens of thousands of dollars, rather than repeat sales of prefab products that go for the equivalent of a few pennies to a few dollars each. 

It's not that I don't understand the economics of recurring sales of cheap items.  I most certainly do.  I spent 12 years running a sales & marketing firm, before I gave it all up to become a "starving artist". (Except I'm hardly starving, so I guess I'm doing it wrong!)  You don't last that long as an award-winning marketer without knowing a thing or two about sales and economics.

The lack of understanding here is yours, in regard to what I meant by the comment.  Here's why I don't sell off the shelf in SL on any large scale.  When I crunch the numbers, it becomes awfully hard to justify what it would take to build up the requisite assortment of products it would take in order for me to be reasonably certain that I'd make a comfortable living.

If you want the breakdown, here it is.  Say I want to make US$50,000 this year.  To do that, I'd need to take in around 14 million Linden dollars.  That's $L38,356 per day.  You say you sell 100-200 items every day, which if true, is great.  Assuming an average of 150 sales per day is indeed accurate for you, then for you to make the minimum I'd want to make, each of those sales has to average at least L$255.  Do they? (You can take that question as rhetorical, by the way.  I don't mean to pry into your finances.)

I notice you currently have around 160 items in the marketplace, and that the average of all your prices is comes to L$679, so it's certainly possible that your average sale price meets or exceeds $L255.  If so, and you're really selling that much, than more power to you, man.  You're doing wonderfully (not that you need me to tell you that, of course).

If you are indeed making a good buck selling your wares in SL, you're certainly not alone.  I know plenty of people who do it, of course.   It's not what I do, though.  I sell my services for the amount my actual time is worth.  That's all I meant by the "no micropayments" comment.

 

It's also not that I've never sold products in SL, by the way.  I certainly have.  That was how I paid my region tier for over 5 years.  I made sure to have enough products available at all times, in order to bank the US$200 per month required to pay for my land.  I never put any more into it than that, but I at least made sure my tier didn't cost me anything out of pocket during that time period.  These days, I no longer own land, so I don't even have that driving me sell in-world products anymore.  I do create plenty of products that other people/companies sell, though.

 

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

See, me, I don't answer to any1 but myself. I make what I want all the time. I don't have to spend 1 minute pandering to any1.

---

Neither do I.  That's why I've been self employed since I was 18 years old.  Come this May, I will have reached the point where I've been in business for myself longer than I haven't, if you follow me.  Ooh, feel old now, haha.

 

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

 If I don't feel like doing anything tomorrow, It doesn't really matter. If I don't feel like working for a month. It doesn't matter.

---

Same deal here.  I'm a freelancer, who works from home. My schedule is my own.

I'd almost always rather have work than not, of course.  But I'll often take a few weeks off between large projects.  Sometimes it's good to kick back after you get paid on that final invoice after a project wraps, and enjoy it, especially considering that how exahusting the race to the finish often is (in a good way).

 

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

Why? Cause I'm gonna get between 100 - 200 micropayments every single day whether I work or not, and that is just for SL.

---

Again, if you're really doing that well, I'm thrilled for you.  I mean that, literally.  It's great.

But as I said, it's not how I choose to do business.  I'm perfectly content doing professional level project work.

 

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

Of course, you'd be hard pressed to see me not working. That's cause i love what I do, and it's actually more fun than playing golf all day. At least, most of the time.

---

 

Same here.  The closest I ever came to playing golf was I used to have an office across the street from a course.  All those beautiful acres, with people playing their game on them, and I'd be inside working.  I never even set foot on that side of the street.

[MaxTux Wonder]

Quote: "As I tried to explain to Max, poly counts are directly related to streaming costs."

 

oh wow this is a very surprise for me! thank you great builder that you are for this great advice, maybe you didn't read all my replies, were i told to you :

 

I HAD PROBLEMS BEFORE CHANGING ISP, WITH STREAMING VIDEO AND AUDIO TOO, AND IT'S NOT ABOUT HOW MUCH BYTES YOU DOWNLOAD!

 

IT'S ABOUT TRAFFIC SHAPING!

 

YOU ARE BLIND? YOU CAN SEE THE PICTURES OF MY AVIES? I'VE CHANGED PROVIDER AND NOW IT WORKS - YOU NEED ANOTHER PICTURE?

 

THE PROBLEM IS THE TRAFFIC SHAPING DONE ABOUT PROVIDERS, THAT CAN AFFECTS ANY TYPE OF STREAMING IN SL, AND THIS IS THE TOPIC ABOUT.

 

AUDIO AND VIDEO TOO! READ IT AGAIN YOU TROLL, AUDIO AND VIDEO TOO!

OR YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO BLAME ME ABOUT AUDIO AND VIDEO TOO?

IS YOUR ISP DOING TRAFFIC SHAPING ON YOUR INTERNET CONNECTION?

NO?

WHAT THE HELL DO YOU WANT THEN?

 

YOU WANT I DO AVATARS WITH 9000K FACES?

YOU DO IT, DON'T BOTHER ME!

 

I WORK FOR MY CUSTOMERS THAT WANTS THE BEST, NOT FOR YOU, WHO THE HELL YOU THINK YOU ARE TO TELL TO ME HOW I'VE TO DO MY WORK?

Go to bother someone else! I thought a big piece in the graphic industry that actually is not working in second life, would not have so much time to bother people in the second life forum, go to work for the government, the university and the big companies, you telling you are working in! (yeah, with those renderings, and not even a link on a website)

But probably a shameless troll doesn't need to be coherent.