Consistency, and the lack thereof...

[Void Singer]

guideline that are handed to residents not the same as guideline being used (if they've changed, post the changes, if not stop being inconsistent)

LL promoting and advertising specific residents on the forums where residents are not allowed to (belongs in blogs at best)

LL picking and choosing which genre's warrant their own subforums, and ignoring large and longer standing communities. (needs to talk to the community)

LL spamming the above (by their own guidelines) while punishing those who point it out, and branding actions that don't even reach half the same magnitude as spam. (needs to stop)

removal of posts that are complaints that are not derogatory, of suggestions to withdraw volunteer efforts, of suggestions to promote the use of official resources, and of some post with no notice at all. (needs to stop)

the absurdity of an adult forum that does not allow adult language or even bland scientific description. (needs to stop, hide the forum if they think it hurts their public image, and allow anyone with a proper rating setting to view and post to it in a reasonable manner)

 

and then we'll move on to placing a staff member at the (literal) last minute to handle complaints about these inconsistencies, with no preparation, and very little understanding of their context, at a different time than listed, to the convenience of a "special guest" that was apparently never informed, nor known to the LL nominally running the session. (Lexie is away [and we hope she's well] but business still happens, and needs to be directed and followed through on)

 

these and other actions leave residents with sevaral very clear yet unstated messages...
"Do as I say, not as I do"
"LL is not interested in a community, only in how that community might replace paid support"
"LL actively promotes favoritism within community spaces to the detriment of  the community"
"LL is not interested in supporting the adult market which supports it's bottom line, but rather want to hush it up"
"LL does not value it's public facing community, and cannot be bothered to have someone manage it consistently"

 

as, requested, there is a good working list of current issues and proposed solutions, and sadly they are only ones that affect the forums. My question to LL is what are you going to do about them? Pay them lip service, tell us you've heard them and put them on a shelf somewhere? Or actually do what should have been happening all along?

[Dresden Ceriano]

Bravo!!

...Dres *wishes he wasn't too tired to formulate a better reply*

[Ian Undercroft]

I agree with your comments, Void.

I've been pretty much silent in relation to the vampire event and its "spin offs". However, I struggle to believe what I've witnessed.

I've no issue with people placing a set of fangs in their mouths, dressing in goth clothing and pretending to be vampires, if that is what they wish to do. It's just one of many examples of RP in SL.

The vampire event appeared to me more of a matter for blogs than the forums.The continued existence of a vampire sub-forum is, it seems to me, incongruous (it sticks out like a sore thumb) and unfair on other role-playing communities in SL (there is no reason why vampire related threads cannot be posted, as they have always been previously, in the RP sub-forum) and thereby divisive.

The spam generated by the vampire event (multiple, repetitive threads, in which posters sought to answer the same series of essentially inane questions) is something I found intrusive and irritating and it caused me to suspend my own forum participation until the event was over.

[Carole Franizzi]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!

Consistency is the basis for fair and just treatment. WIthout it, all you get is erratic, subjective chaos.

Excellent post!

[Tristizia Demonista]

Nothing to add. ...nuff said

[Void Singer]

nor I, which is why I relate it as a genre.... one in which I myself have taken part in. I've also taken part in the Gothic, Robotics, Zombie, Pirate, Furry, Fantasy (mythological, magical, and supernatural), Steam, Victorian, Science (both super and mad) and Kids RP communities too.... I even like to mix them up. I have one av that fits SIX of those!

and those are just the generic categories...

do I think we need separate subforums for each? probably not, the RP overall community has a nice active space and is still only one subculture within SL..... I think trying to cater to them all is probably a disaster in the making as specific fandoms must be left out because of their basis in commercial works (some of which are more permissive than others), and there may not be enough general interest to talk about some of them rather than to just log in and engage. (although it would be nice to see all of those featured, just not in the way of specific sub forums)

 ETA:
rereading that it sounds like I'm arguing a point, when it's supposed to sound like a wholehearted agreement with my own personal spin... apologies.. I've become to used to the compare and contrast writing model and need to work on my style a bit more.

[valerie Inshan]

Void, may I add my tiny voice here. You are brave and so smart. I wish being French would not limit me so much. Anyway thumbs up, you nailed it all. Bravo!

[Venus Petrov]

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Void Singer wrote:

do I think we need separate subforums for each?

probably not, the RP overall community has a nice active space and is still only one subculture within SL..... I think trying to cater to them all is probably a disaster in the making as specific fandoms must be left out because of their basis in commercial works (some of which are more permissive than others), and there may not be enough general interest to talk about some of them rather than to just log in and engage. (although it would be nice to see

all

of those featured, just not in the way of specific sub forums)

 

---

^^ QFT ^^

Although the behavior exhibited by some posters in the Vampire subforum (spamming) would still be considered spam if it were done within the RP subforum.

As the Fashion initiative was presented as a series of blogs by 'experts' over the course of several days, why that mode of 'focus' on the vampire subculture in SL was not used...well.../me scratches her head

 

[Void Singer]

---

Venus Petrov wrote:

Although the behavior exhibited by some posters in the Vampire subforum (spamming) would still be considered spam if it were done within the RP subforum.

As the Fashion initiative was presented as a series of blogs by 'experts' over the course of several days, why that mode of 'focus' on the vampire subculture in SL was not used...well.../me scratches her head

 

---

indeed true on the first part, the inconsistency seems to be flowing in both directions there...

as to the second part... I can tell you exactly why, although it only makes sense in a marketers mind... The whole vamp thing DID start on the blogs, but like much marketing it was forced, and didn't get much participation (nor does the format allow for it really).... seeking wider coverage and hoping for a more viral reaction to generate interest, they moved it into the forums.... and if you're a marketer, that makes sense.

the problem is marketers don't have any sway over what the public picks up as viral, although they can tailor it by being funny and unique to get a better chance. Unfortunately they violated two cardinal rules for something to go viral... uniqueness (it'd already been featured on the blogs) and community supported (officially backing up a campaign that's intend to be viral screams marketing manipulation, and people get quickly turned off to it)

[Venus Petrov]

Ah, I missed the vampires on blog.  I suppose because it was of little interest to me.  What would have facilitated the uptake of a vampire subforum (I suppose it is temporary?  we did not get around to that question last Thursday), would have been 1) an announcement that one was about to open up and why and 2) LL asking the vampire experts to post under their names, not under the spammer "Linden Lab". 

Transparency in communication takes some thought and effort but the payoffs can be huge.

 

 

[Knowl Paine]

---

Void Singer wrote:

guideline that are handed to residents not the same as guideline being used (if they've changed, post the changes, if not stop being inconsistent) 

KP: The Guidelines are clear, the enforcement should be reviewed.

LL promoting and advertising specific residents on the forums where residents are not allowed to (belongs in blogs at best) 

KP: I agree

LL picking and choosing which genre's warrant their own subforums, and ignoring large and longer standing communities. (needs to talk to the community)

KP: I agree

LL spamming the above (by their own guidelines) while punishing those who point it out, and branding actions that don't even reach half the same magnitude as spam. (needs to stop)

KP: As you already mentioned, LL should stay on their blog side of the Forum.

removal of posts that are complaints that are not derogatory, of suggestions to withdraw volunteer efforts, of suggestions to promote the use of official resources, and of some post with no notice at all. (needs to stop)

KP: In another thread I suggested using a down vote system like at you tube and Residents could self govern.

the absurdity of an adult forum that does not allow adult language or even bland scientific description. (needs to stop, hide the forum if they think it hurts their public image, and allow anyone with a proper rating setting to view and post to it in a reasonable manner)

KP: A PG Adult Forum makes my brain hurt. That section should require login for it to be visible.  

 

and then we'll move on to placing a staff member at the (literal) last minute to handle complaints about these inconsistencies, with no preparation, and very little understanding of their context, at a different time than listed, to the convenience of a "special guest" that was apparently never informed, nor known to the LL nominally running the session. (Lexie is away [and we hope she's well] but business still happens, and needs to be directed and followed through on)

KP: That was uncool to airdrop the guest into the middle of a mine field. The fact that a part of the Team is not here is a cause for worry, concern and understanding, but the Show must go on.

"Find the answers!, do what any other group of people would do when a job needs to be done, arrival earlier, stay late". (just venting) 

 

these and other actions leave residents with sevaral very clear yet unstated messages...

"Do as I say, not as I do"                                                                                                                                

Partly agree

"LL is not interested in a community, only in how that community might replace paid support"    

Disagree

"LL actively promotes favoritism within community spaces to the detriment of  the community"   

Agree with 1st part

"LL is not interested in supporting the adult market which supports it's bottom line<snip>           

Disagree

"LL does not value it's public facing community<snip>                                                                           

Disagree

 

as, requested, there is a good working list of current issues and proposed solutions, and sadly they are only ones that affect the forums. My question to LL is what are you going to do about them? Pay them lip service, tell us you've heard them and put them on a shelf somewhere? Or actually do what should have been happening all along?

---

KP: I agree, plenty of good data that could be acted upon. I hope your message makes it clear as to who's court the ball is in.

(I only <snipped>  to make space but I thought it was :smileyvery-happy: :matte-motes-evil-invert: :smileyvery-happy: funny that I clipped the part where you said " but rather want to hush it up" . sorry about that)

 

[Void Singer]

I'll comment on an aspect of that, and that's the idea of inline ratings....

I don't see them working here for two reasons... we don't have a community or content (on the forums) the size or scale of yuotube. We also have a a ignup method with no confirmation or control which leads to easy abuse when one person decides to register 50 alt accounts (or just get all their friends in) to down rate anyone they don't like. the same thing actually happens on youtube, the difference being that the content isn't affected by that, and the size of the service tends to hide peoples personal vendettas

a simple ignore/block feature would probably go a lot farther to quelling personal disputes IMO

 

obviously it goes without saying that I disagree with certain other points, but I'll touch on one other. Guidelines may not be as clear as we think... if they post tomorrow that the guidelines have changes, and those changes say that all those things are ok (which they have every right to do, it being their service) then they weren't really clear were they... I would hope that wouldn't be the case, but it is a lingering possibility.

I do feel sorry for Viale, that was a mean stunt to pull. although as far as I can tell he wasn't the "special guest" we were  supposed to expect.

PS
my impression was that the adult forum did require you to be logged in to see it, I'll verify that shortly.

ETA:
nope, publicly viewable... that's half a problem right there.

[Venus Petrov]

Just as a bit of history (and not directed specifically at you Void), the adult forum that we originally requested last March was to be for all age-verified residents to discuss adult content.  This would have included using common terms found in any high school biology textbook but should not have excluded slang meaning the same (if indeed it were restricted to age-verified residents). 

What LL ended up doing was, well, what you know.  The reason that was given was to get into that restricted area, Blondin had to add manually.  They had no way to link the age-verified bit to the forum.  So, it might have been a much larger job of reviewing and providing access for all interested age-verified residents seeking  to discuss things we could not discuss in the PG-forum, 

Well, now anyone can see and comment.  Kind of defeats the purpose.  Perhaps Adult should now be merged with Lifestyles & Relationships or General Discussions.

Just an all around disappointment.

[Void Singer]

good points, interestingly enough they seem to be able to block PM's between adult and teen accounts, yet can't define forums on the same basis?

I suspect the problem there is less technical, and more esoteric.

[Celestiall Nightfire]

Excellent post Void.  

 

---

Void Singer wrote:

these and other actions leave residents with sevaral very clear yet unstated messages...

"Do as I say, not as I do"

"LL is not interested in a community, only in how that community might replace paid support"

"LL actively promotes favoritism within community spaces to the detriment of  the community"

"LL is not interested in supporting the adult market which supports it's bottom line, but rather want to hush it up"

"LL does not value it's public facing community, and cannot be bothered to have someone manage it consistently"

---

Last week I wrote a personal letter/message to someone at LL.  While I won't re-post the entire contents of my letter here...I will share one sentence from that message/letter: 

"It's confusing for SL residents to see one set of rules for LL and special "invited guests", and another set of rules for the remaining SL forum posters."

I have not gotten a reply, nor do I expect to.   But, it would be nice of the recipient were to investigate or question the circumstances, that precipitated me sending a written communication.

[RudolphUkka]

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Knowl Paine wrote:The Guidelines are clear, the enforcement should be reviewed.

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I

*

disagree. The critical issue is

*

"harassment" which is a complete

*

judgment call. For some

*

hypersensitive complainants it might be

***

"He mentioned my name in his post"

***

when the poster was

*

QUOTING the complainant! Or

***

"A Linden said he felt harrassed"

***

when the

*

post was

*

discussing the

*

establishment of a brand new

*

subforum with no prior consultation; or simply

***

"He disagreed with me; please make him stop"

***

all of which hypothetical

*

examples might be considered as "harrassment" by someone

*

oversensitive or under pressure to

*

sanitise public conversations. I would

*

NOT consider them

*

harrassment, but then, that's just my

*

opinion.

***

Rudi

***

[Pamela Galli]

---

Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

---

Last week I wrote a personal letter/message to someone at LL.  While I won't re-post the entire contents of my letter here...I will share one sentence from that message/letter: 

"

It's confusing for SL residents to see one set of rules for LL and special "invited guests", and another set of rules for the remaining SL forum posters."

 

---

That's what it boils down to for me -- it is a question of special vs equal treatment, and also of not turning the forums into infomercials.

People who tell me "Well I bet if it was a Home & Garden Forum you would sing a different tune!" don't understand that no, I would not be happy with unequal treatment if I was the beneficiary of it, either.