Linkset Scaling Issue

[GManB]

I am trying to create a gemstone. I built it in Maya. Twenty-one thin facets, each a thin planar object. Thet need to be separate objects because I will add a projector to each. Each facet has its local axes oriented so that positive Z is perpendicular to the facet and facing outward. This causes the projector to project inward. The inside faces will be black with high shininess and the exterior faces and the edges will be 100% transparent. This gives an interesting effect which can be seen in this animated gif of an early version without the top facets.

https://gyazo.com/542cec699a583adf80c6858cd4013ae0

 

The issue is that when I scale the linkset to the smaller size it should be the facets all become slightly misaligned. In random ways. This occurs if I make it the proper size in Maya (where everything looks good) and upload at a 1.0 scale or if I make it 10x larger in Maya and upload at 0.1 scale. The proper size is about 20cm high. Once in SL I have to add the projector and shininess to each internal face. So, I'd like it to be as large as possible to have room to work inside. But, I could do it at the proper size if necessary.

But, no matter what I have tried when scaled to the 20cm height the facets do not meet at their edges properly..

 

Any ideas on why this is happening? And/or any ideas on how to work around it?

 

I have tried repositioning and resizing each facet but that seems near impossible.

 

Also, if I combine the 12 objects in Maya and upload scaling is fine but I cannot add the projectors to each facet because projectors, afaik, are per object and project in the minus Z direction.

Thanks,

G

[Chic Aeon]

There are oh so many things I could say (wink) but the MAIN  --- not ONLY mind you -- issue is that you cannot upload your facets because they are beyond the minimum upload size for Second Life. The uploader simply enlarges them to the minimum size.  

 

I don't exactly understand what you are trying to do but the only way you will be able to upload is as a joined object.  So Plan B needs to be in the works.   

 

For those reading  this --  the OP and I have chatted in world a few times about mesh making :D.  Hence my slightly sassy comment style.  

 

And as a side note uploading 21 facets as well as the ring propper would make your ring 11 land impact -- minimum which is WAY too heavy for a piece of jewelry  -- by leaps and bounds.  

Edited August 3, 2020 by Chic Aeon

[animats]

Oooh, shiny thing!

Sent OP a way to do this with two wide field of view projectors.

(Annoyingly, projectors are limited to a field of view of 3, not  π, or, better, 2π, so you can almost get a hemisphere projection, but not quite.)

If we had refractions, this would look really cool at dawn.

Aw, no refractions. Would be like living next to a giant disco ball if that worked, though.

[GManB]

Slightly sassy tone humbly accepted

The gem is not meant for a ring but rather as a piece of 'art' on a plinth. It's 20cm tall. Here is a pic to show relative size.

https://gyazo.com/562fa22dc835a3c62301c1ee7cbdd08d

 

Here is a closeup to show the problem (I don't think, yet, it's the minimum upload size but am willing to be convinced)

https://gyazo.com/9eb0f353de79989ee6d49f6466fe7f08

The version on the left is when uploaded as a single object. On the right when uploaded, with scale factor of 1.0, as 21 objects.

 

This is a close up of the misaligned version

https://gyazo.com/9594cfaa0657ac1b12c866dc22e1b2c8

It is the misalignment of the facets that's the problem.

Plan B could be to suck it up and align the facets in-world... sighs... but I am not hopeful I have the patience.

 

animats..

Here is a slightly enlarged version, single object, with your colored projector inside. It's a small space so the size of the projection is small even with FoV == 3. I would need more projectors but this seems like a solution.

https://gyazo.com/59d3e88bc0c239e0ed797d2e8f49c24d

 

Finally, another question. As you can see in the last pic the projection goes through the object and also illuminates the backdrop (and also goes through the backdrop). Is there any way to have an object stop a projection? I have tried setting Falloff to 2 and that helps but not enough. I cannot get a larger value for Falloff.

 

Thanks,
G

 

 

LI FYI:

• The LI of the 21 object version is all Server costs and is 11
• The LI of the single object version is 2
  • Depending on how many projectors I would need though the LI will go back up.

 

 

[Chic Aeon]

53 minutes ago, GManB said:

Slightly sassy tone humbly accepted

The gem is not meant for a ring but rather as a piece of 'art' on a plinth. It's 20cm tall. Here is a pic to show relative size.

OK. Misunderstood your intent  but what I think "is" happening was in my long list of problematics LOL.

Uploading linksets can get tricky. Did you make your own LODs and physics models?    There is a naming system that needs to be followed -- exactly.   But notice that SOME of the pieces are working correctly and others not.   Let's say simply that the uploader is often not fond of complex linksets; we see that often commented on here and I rarely  -- except for making tutorials -- use them. 

 

So far as minimum size they have changed the wiki (one reason that I don't like wiki's in general) but I believe the minimum size is .01 in any direction just like a cube inworld.  If your facet pieces are less than this they would enlarge to become .01 in the missing direction. That doesn't look like the problem though from your screenshot --- agreement there.  

 

Is there a chance that EACH of your facets has its own material?   You can only have eight per mesh object without the uploader doing some very messy things. This doesn't SEEM like the problem since your object is uploading in single pieces, but honestly I have never seen anyone try and DO THIS before LOL  so it might be a long time issue that you are just finding (lucky you).

 

The only other thing I have is that you might try uploading with the Linden Viewer if you used a third party viewer. That used to sometimes help with various odd issues.  

 

******    AND I noted last week that when I tried to downsize a large house to demo size for an event it mysteriously got REALLY messed up --- much like your example here; everything was misaligned. That was uploaded in various pieces and put together inworld but the end result after trying to make it smaller was very similar. That was NOT THE NORM in the past.   

 

That's all I got sweetie LOL.   Hope you figure it out. animats is terrifically techie so sure there are some good hints there --- if there IS a solution.   Sometimes it just isn't US and we have to move on along. 

 

Be sure and come back if you get it working and do a show and tell.  I want to see what that 11 land impact "buys"

 

 

 

[Quarrel Kukulcan]

15 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

There is a naming system that needs to be followed -- exactly.

I haven't needed to give my physics mesh or lower LODs specific file names. Could those names just make them auto-fill into the appropriate upload panel fields, maybe?

[GManB]

• I did not make my own LOD or Physics models
• The facets are 0.001 thick but there is another piece to each facet. A 'trick' mesh separate from the facet and displaced inward in the -Z direction. The facet and the trick mesh are a single object. Then the uploader then doesn't see an object less than 0.01 in any dimension so the facet rez's nicely at 0.001
• Each facet is a separate object and has only two faces, this should be fine.
• I will try the Linden viewer and report back here

 

My current working hypothesis is that because each of the 21 objects has its local axes different from all others slight problems in the upload process cause each object to change in a way different from the other 20. As an experiment I'm going to align all the local axes to World in Maya and try an upload and see if that changes anything. However, I would then need to change the local axes in-world, which I have not seen a way to do (to get the projector to project inward).

 

G

[ChinRey]

12 minutes ago, Quarrel Kukulcan said:

I haven't needed to give my physics mesh or lower LODs specific file names. Could those names just make them auto-fill into the appropriate upload panel fields, maybe?

LoD and physics models have nothing to do with it. But since you mention it, for something like this you use model above for all LoD levels and preferably just a single triangle as physics model (although physics is hardly a serious issue here).

Four questions:

1. Do you upload the facets one by one or as a linkset? You definitely want to do the latter here.
2. Are you absolutely sure none of the facets are below the minimum size limit?
3. Are you working high up in the air in SL? Geometry precision does deteriorate significantly at higher altitudes.
4. If you upload the facets individually, do you have to rotate any of them after you've uploaded? If you do, be prepared to spend the next of the year doing some seriously tricky trigonometry.

I suspect #4 is the real issue here and if so, don't even think about. However, there may be a workaround: add one more mesh that covers the gaps. It's still tricky and not ideal but it may help.

Oh, and while I'm at it:

12 hours ago, GManB said:

The inside faces will be black with high shininess and the exterior faces and the edges will be 100% transparent.

Do those 100% tranparent facews have any fucntion at all? It seems to me they're just a waste of triangles.

[GManB]

First, I went into Maya and baked each facet's axes to World. Upload wasn't perfect but very close. A couple tweaks and it was perfect. Each facet aligned perfectly. But the projectors will all project in the same direction.. not what is needed. Can I change the local axis of a mesh in SL?

 

ChinRay,

1. Linkset
2. Almost certain
3. On the ground not up in the air
4. I don't upload individually but even if I did I do not see a way to rez each of the 21 in the perfect relative place. Fiddling would be necessary and, as you say, a long process

 

But, at least we now know the problem... it is that each facet's axes are unique, in direction, from the other 20. Based on a quick Google search it looks like the axes of an object are fixed in SL can cannot be changed. Sighs.... but, maybe, might there be?

 

G

Edited August 3, 2020 by GManB
Changed Chic to ChinRay, sry for the mixup

[Chic Aeon]

1 hour ago, Quarrel Kukulcan said:

I haven't needed to give my physics mesh or lower LODs specific file names. Could those names just make them auto-fill into the appropriate upload panel fields, maybe?

As far as I know this hasn't changed. This is ONLY for uploading as linksets -- not an individual item. 

Info in this video below but I am sure the info is also here many times on the mesh forum (a few years ago when it was more active :D) so something like "linkset physics" might get you the discussion.

 

BUT --  :D.   A linkset will UPLOAD without defining the specific physics model --- it is just that the physics aren't correct.    

I am a little confused about your question beyond that so I'll let someone else answer.   I understand auto-fill for Sansar but have never seen it in SL (maybe because I use Firestorm? - not sure). 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=789HEWcYyp0&list=PLnUjXtZrc64laa7-1NUSY8pjXedwQj7kn&index=16&t=0s

 

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, GManB said:

Chic,

No, my name isn't Chic

But never mind.

1 hour ago, GManB said:

I don't upload individually but even if I did I do not see a way to rez each of the 21 in the perfect relative place. Fiddling would be necessary and, as you say, a long process

But, at least we now know the problem... it is that each facet's axes are unique, in direction, from the other 20. Based on a quick Google search it looks like the axes of an object are fixed in SL can cannot be changed. Sighs.... but, maybe, might there be?

Yes, the axis used for a projector is for the object's bounding box, not the normals. In other words, unless you rotate the object in-world, the projection will always be downwards.

There mey be a solution though. It's been a while since I worked with projectors but unless I'm mistaken, they work jsut as well if you set them to 100% transprency. So, make the crystal as a single object with only the inside face and then add invisible projectors to each facet. You want the projectors to match the facets as closely as possible of course but since they aren't visible themselves, you'll have a little bit of leeway both when it comes to size and angle and even shape. You can probably use prims as projectors even and that shuold save a little bit of time and upload fees.

[Chic Aeon]

1 hour ago, GManB said:

First, I went into Maya and baked each facet's axes to World. Upload wasn't perfect but very close. A couple tweaks and it was perfect. Each facet aligned perfectly. But the projectors will all project in the same direction.. not what is needed. Can I change the local axis of a mesh in SL?

 

Chic,

1. Linkset
2. Almost certain
3. On the ground not up in the air
4. I don't upload individually but even if I did I do not see a way to rez each of the 21 in the perfect relative place. Fiddling would be necessary and, as you say, a long process

 

But, at least we now know the problem... it is that each facet's axes are unique, in direction, from the other 20. Based on a quick Google search it looks like the axes of an object are fixed in SL can cannot be changed. Sighs.... but, maybe, might there be?

 

G

That is definitely a animats question, beyond simple little me.  You DO seem to want to do what isn't possible here LOL --- and that's fine. But I doubt things are going to change much so impossible now is likely impossible in the future too.   But you now know a few other things that wont work.  Trust me, eight or so years ago I was on the mesh board asking questions throughout the day. I read ALL the comments even when I didn't understand them so that I would at least remember them (hopefully) when I did.  

 

Back then there were also some major mesh issues that HAVE been solved (like falling through the end of a cube platform even with physic set and floating above the floor even before we had mesh avatars -- or hover height settings :D.  So there have been some improvements happily.  And some very nasty problems have come up over time like the door scripts (I think it has something to do with vector zero but not a script person) that that actually change the physics of a mesh building. THAT took some of the pros hours to figure out and then caught ME a few years later and I had forgotten and spent days before I finally remembered.   

 

Poco a poco. 

 

 

 

[ChinRey]

4 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

That is definitely a animats question

Chin Rey giggles a little, then looks around to make sure everybody watches as she demonstrates she's not offended and definitely not commenting in any way.

Edited August 3, 2020 by ChinRey

[GManB]

3 hours ago, ChinRey said:

No, my name isn't Chic

But never mind.

 

Yes, the axis used for a projector is for the object's bounding box, not the normals. In other words, unless you rotate the object in-world, the projection will always be downwards.

There mey be a solution though. It's been a while since I worked with projectors but unless I'm mistaken, they work jsut as well if you set them to 100% transprency. So, make the crystal as a single object with only the inside face and then add invisible projectors to each facet. You want the projectors to match the facets as closely as possible of course but since they aren't visible themselves, you'll have a little bit of leeway both when it comes to size and angle and even shape. You can probably use prims as projectors even and that shuold save a little bit of time and upload fees.

ChinRey, Sorry about the name mistake... I did edit and correct.

Here's an animation of where I am now

https://gyazo.com/5493c6a22495d96dc9da2e5dc3e96b68

 

This is a single object, normals reversed (all pointing inward), the vertical colored pattern is just a texture applied to the object using a good uv map I built in Maya, internal projectors (from animats) projecting a vertical black/white stripe texture. There is only one face, and that's all the internal surfaces of all the facets. The shininess for that face is high.

I think with more projectors like ChinRey suggested, I might be getting close... Ultimately, I don't think I want the projectors to rotate like this but rather  'jitter' a bit in place in an attempt to achieve something like sparkle..

G

[ChinRey]

2 minutes ago, GManB said:

ChinRey, Sorry about the name mistake... I did edit and correct.

Np

 

3 minutes ago, GManB said:

Ultimately, I don't think I want the projectors to rotate like this but rather  'jitter' a bit in place in an attempt to achieve something like sparkle..

Ah, now you dn't even want the projectors to be perfectly aligned with the facets.

I'd probably go for texture animation to create that jitter though. That gives you more control and you don't need to run scripts for it (yes, you need scripts to start and stop texture animation but not to run them.)  Some discreet bling particles might do the trick too.

If you really want to go over the top, use different texture animation speeds and modes for the different projectors and for the crystal's base texture. Add different (but very discreet) bling to each projector and to the crystal, physical jitter to the projectors and occaional brief bursts of glow to everything. Total chaos!

[GManB]

6 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Np

 

Ah, now you dn't even want the projectors to be perfectly aligned with the facets.

I'd probably go for texture animation to create that jitter though. That gives you more control and you don't need to run scripts for it (yes, you need scripts to start and stop texture animation but not to run them.)  Some discreet bling particles might do the trick too.

If you really want to go over the top, use different texture animation speeds and modes for the different projectors and for the crystal's base texture. Add different (but very discreet) bling to each projector and to the crystal, physical jitter to the projectors and occaional brief bursts of glow to everything. Total chaos!

Here is where I am with the effort now.

 https://gyazo.com/a0898cf787c827a3b5d7432d1604b917

Crystal is a single object. Normals point inward. Black color and high shine on the face. No textures on the crystal. Nine projectors each parallel to one of the nine vertical facets, projecting inward, BUT. larger than the facet and positioned outside the crystal... I have tried many combinations this scheme produces the most consistent look.

Now, maybe slight variations the angle of the texture used in the projection, some particles, jitter instead of rotation.

 

G

[OptimoMaximo]

23 hours ago, ChinRey said:

If you upload the facets individually, do you have to rotate any of them after you've uploaded? If you do, be prepared to spend the next of the year doing some seriously tricky trigonometry

Do you guys know that I made a script for Maya to do exactly that? 😂 Tricky trigonometry and positioning covered, outputs a script that restores the Maya scene situation with a precision to 1/100th of millimeter. 

[GManB]

30 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Do you guys know that I made a script for Maya to do exactly that? 😂 Tricky trigonometry and positioning covered, outputs a script that restores the Maya scene situation with a precision to 1/100th of millimeter. 

OptimoMaximo,

No, I did not know this. Is the script available?

Thanks,

G

[OptimoMaximo]

51 minutes ago, GManB said:

OptimoMaximo,

No, I did not know this. Is the script available?

Thanks,

G

It's Builders Mate. It comes bundled with MayaStar, standalone and bundled with MyAniMATE. You can find it on my MP. It allows to retain arbitrary rotations from objects original state. Tested at very high altitudes and no mismatch occurs. 

[GManB]

1 hour ago, OptimoMaximo said:

It's Builders Mate. It comes bundled with MayaStar, standalone and bundled with MyAniMATE. You can find it on my MP. It allows to retain arbitrary rotations from objects original state. Tested at very high altitudes and no mismatch occurs. 

OptimoMaximo, Thanks. I have a few questions about Builders Mate stand-alone:

• I see you built and tested on Maya 2017. I am using Maya 2020. Has Builders Mate been qualified for Maya 2020?
• The MP page says, Builders'MATE is available as installer for Windows (Vista/7/8/10) OS only'. Has this changed? I am on MacOS Catalina.
• The 21 facets all have unique orientation of their local axes. Plus-Z points outward and is perpendicular to the plane of the facet. Will these unique local axes orientations be preserved?

 

Thanks, Greg

[GManB]

Pretty happy with this version.

https://gyazo.com/9a69b8717b040703b9a5ccc5dc06aef5

If anyone knows how to create an object through which a projector will not project its light, I'd like to know.

Thanks,
G

[OptimoMaximo]

18 hours ago, GManB said:

OptimoMaximo, Thanks. I have a few questions about Builders Mate stand-alone:

• I see you built and tested on Maya 2017. I am using Maya 2020. Has Builders Mate been qualified for Maya 2020?
• The MP page says, Builders'MATE is available as installer for Windows (Vista/7/8/10) OS only'. Has this changed? I am on MacOS Catalina.
• The 21 facets all have unique orientation of their local axes. Plus-Z points outward and is perpendicular to the plane of the facet. Will these unique local axes orientations be preserved?

 

Thanks, Greg

The scripting API used for that script doesn't change, so it works on all Maya versions from 2014 on (but possibly earlier versions too), including 2020

It comes as installer only, but on request I provide a separate download for Mac users, which basically isn't an installer but the loose scripts that need to be dropped in the scripts folder of your installation. 

The custom orientation isn't preserved since the upload process obliterates that anyway. However, you can bake the pivot position and orientation to translate it into regular rotations and positions within Maya, center the pivot, use the script, zero out rotations on the facets and upload those, the inworld script will reconstruct the object respecting the data you rebuilt this way. 

[GManB]

4 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

The custom orientation isn't preserved since the upload process obliterates that anyway. However, you can bake the pivot position and orientation to translate it into regular rotations and positions within Maya, center the pivot, use the script, zero out rotations on the facets and upload those, the inworld script will reconstruct the object respecting the data you rebuilt this way. 

When I set the 'Object' axes in Maya as I need them and bake the pivot the upload process does not obliterate them. The facets do have their local axes set exactly how I baked them in Maya. And I need the axes set properly because the facets will be projectors and I want the projection (which is always in the -Z direction) to face inward.

I don't really understand the rest of what you propose above, certainly because of my ignorance of your tool, which seems to be really great.

Before I purchase BuildersMate I'd like to know if it works for this particular model. Maybe if I sent you the Maya scene file you could apply your script and upload and let me see it in SL?

Thanks,

G

[GManB]

Circling back. I found the problem and have a solution. I would not have been able to do without experimenting with Builder's MATE and Optimo's patient help. The problem was twofold:

• I did not center the pivots on the facets after re-orienting the axes so -Z was inward.
• Each facet has a 'trick' object to avoid the uploader  changing the thickness of the facets to 1cm. In Maya because of manipulations and scaling the trick object ended up too close to the facet. I went through and re-positioned all the trick object.

Fixing those too issues allowed me to upload at the proper scale as a link set. I the end I did not need Builder's MATE but I can see its great usefulness.