Is there, like a "Mainland Lovers" of sorts SL group in -world?

[Dorie Bernstein]

The first picture in Prok's post proving the hub is in an entirely different region on an entirely different branch of the line. Here is that actual hub's SLURL: https://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Xanthorhoe/46/48/51

For more details on this hub, go to this SLRR spreadsheet maintained by DeNasty Tigerpaw. Look on the North Coast tab, and "Saintly" Railway Company for full information on the hub: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1irvSYj-YyKnLQbsi9FvBirmBFnDLegH-Hq26sH6DvsI/edit?usp=sharing

Edited November 1, 2019 by Dorie Bernstein

[Vega Firelyte]

41 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I can merely Laugh Out Loud at this land of your supposedly "not actual hub" that has a sign that says GTFO Hub out in front of it. Pretending that a "compliment to the train and travellers" which has an ad for GTFO on it, from a group with a GTFO hub sign out in front of it, selling the GTFO kit from its vendor is truly a stretch. If technically that group owner is "not your group" it sure is hell affililated with, and making cash with, your group. See below, the GTFO sign, in front of a GTFO warehouse in a sim, which I might add, is spectacularly blighted with all kinds of junk in the air and on the ground, but of course, that's their God-given right to do WTF they want on their land because we must champion "creativity" uber alles.

I just now went to my land, saw that I was WELL WITHIN the red line so it could not be returned, but merely shrunk it slightly to make extra sure. See the "before" picture below and the after I will have to post on my blog as I am out of bytes now. Once again, I could point out that no one returned my boardwalk in the last few days. That's because it's not encroaching. If there is some microscopic encroachment of this boardwalk on the border of what was abandoned land for years, hey, sue me. Oh, and return the boardwalk. But you can't. Because it's not encroaching.

Anyone trying to maneuver a truck out of your FarmFresh warehouse (neither a farm nor fresh) will have to be quite the skillful driver and turn themselves into a pretzel to drive under and out of the train station. It's insanity. 

When a group (and another group which both pretend are not affiliated) put up giant billboards in the face of my tenants, I push back. That's not on. I return the signs -- twice now! -- because they ENCROACH, hello! 

I notice that instead of admitting the facts of the case, visible to all, you're distracting with efforts to comment on whether I am important or not, or you are important, and making a false claim that ARing and returning giant billboards and calling out bad behaviour is "stalking". The stalking is what is done by your giant, overbearing corporation. That's visible to the naked eye.

The one land there, the smaller one, was NOT encroaching on yours or mine but you returned their sign for them. I'm betting it wasn't locked down and that is how you were able to do it, which shows you want to harass now.   Want to try lying one more time there?  As for you, I actually watched you slide your boardwalk off of the group parcel, you took the photo after you altered the boardwalk.  You moved it so you can claim that you were not encroaching.  I'm not sure what you did but I also know that NO PRIMS were on your land and all of my things were fully locked down because you started this yesterday.  The sign had been moved back and it was on my area completely.  The trees were even returned and the owner of them came on and put it back but it shows that it wasn't on your land, it was in fact on that small parcel, and your photo is proof that it wasn't on your land.  So you are lying again there.  

As for that other photo, that is a hub that is in a totally different region that isn't even close to where the group parcel is, so there is another lie.  You seem to be racking up the lies here Prok.  

Edited November 1, 2019 by Vega Firelyte

[missyrideout]

Mainland Appreciation Society, great idea! I'd love to join but I am kinda leery of appearing to take sides in years-long feuds that have nothing to do with me. *shrugs* 

Edited November 1, 2019 by missyrideout

[Dorie Bernstein]

8 minutes ago, missyrideout said:

Mainland Appreciation Society, great idea! I'd love to join but I am kinda leery of appearing to take sides in years-long feuds that have nothing to do with me. *shrugs* 

Check out the group called Linden Road Community ... They're fairly active and promoting the mainland. And they don't have ties to blood feuds, that I'm aware of.

[Prokofy Neva]

46 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

The GTFO Hub sign Prok is referring to...

... is clearly not a hub. It's a sign. It has no scripting. This wee little parcel is not a hub. It's says "community". 

Facts.

LOL you DO realize that when you put up a picture of a sign that clearly has the letters "GTFO" on it, and then claim it is about "community" and not "hub," you merely sound ridiculous.

And look about at my updated post. The owner of the microparcel in question is a group which INDEED DOES have a GTFO hub and the GTFO vendor inside their building. That's what the discussion is about.

But honestly, you guys HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME when you pretend that GTFO this or that is somehow "unrelated" and "not the same" and if the sign is "not scripted" that means that somehow it is like fairies and unicorns and doesn't blight the view. I marvel at this.

[Prokofy Neva]

31 minutes ago, Vega Firelyte said:

The one land there, the smaller one, was NOT encroaching on yours or mine but you returned their sign for them. I'm betting it wasn't locked down and that is how you were able to do it, which shows you want to harass now.   Want to try lying one more time there?  As for you, I actually watched you slide your boardwalk off of the group parcel, you took the photo after you altered the boardwalk.  You moved it so you can claim that you were not encroaching.  I'm not sure what you did but I also know that NO PRIMS were on your land and all of my things were fully locked down because you started this yesterday.  The sign had been moved back and it was on my area completely.  The trees were even returned and the owner of them came on and put it back but it shows that it wasn't on your land, it was in fact on that small parcel, and your photo is proof that it wasn't on your land.  So you are lying again there.  

As for that other photo, that is a hub that is in a totally different region that isn't even close to where the group parcel is, so there is another lie.  You seem to be racking up the lies here Prok.  

Um, dear? You can't return someone else's prims just because you feel like it or they are "not locked down," whatever that means. You can ONLY return them when they ENCROACH ON YOUR LAND, HELLO! Which it is easy to do when they are big, ungainly, unwieldy billboards of the type that we used to have in America out west decades ago, you know, like WALL DRUGS 100 MILES...WALL DRUGS 50 MILES....WALL DRUGS 25 MILES... Ever go to Wall drugs?

I didn't slide anything. I went into edit mode, and slightly RESIZED THE PRIM. I didn't have to move a thing. And it was unnecessary as you can see from the "before" picture that shows the red line to the right of my boardwalk, even if close. Since even mathematically straight prims in SL can drift over time and actually also create optical illusions regarding their relationship to the border, there's an easy test for this: right click/return. Since it wasn't returned these last few days, I'll assume it wasn't encroaching. Meanwhile, not only were those two giant billboards encroaching, so were your plants, which I just returned again...and again.

It's not possible to return things that are not on your land, and items from BOTH your land and the microparcel of this soi-disant "unaffiliated" group encroached, and were returned.

As to "totally different region" and "not even close to where the group parcel is," this is a propagandistic literalism that even the Soviet communists would blush at.

Let's break this down again for you.

THE OWNER

OF THE MICROPARCEL

WITH THE BILLBOARD ON IT IMMEDIATELY ADJACENT TO YOUR 'FARMFRESH'

IS A GROUP

WHOSE HEADQUARTERS IN ANOTHER SIM

HAS A GTFO HUB SIGN ON IT AND VENDOR FOR SALE

THAT THEY ARE IN ANOTHER SIM MAKES NO DIFFERENCE, SINCE YOU CLAIMED THEY HAVE 'NOTHING' TO DO WITH YOUR GROUP YET

THEY HAVE GTFO INFO HUB ON THEIR HQ, SELL YOUR VENDOR, AND WHAT'S MOST SALIENT, HAVE A GIANT BILLBOARD ADVERTISING GTFO ON 

THE MICROPARCEL.

LOOK AT THE PICTURE ABOVE, PROVIDED HERE AGAIN

 

 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Prokofy Neva

[Dorie Bernstein]

So, it's a bad thing that people are wanting to have fun with a group you don't like for some reason? Anyone who wants to participate by having a hub the game can link to is allowed to. Most of those folks do more than just GTFO, so I have no idea why you're nitpicking things with who owns what and puts up whatever thing you're annoyed with at the time. The mainland doesn't have the strong gated community and homeowner's associations that would govern whether a billboard or land use is done to fit your particular views of things. If you're not happy with your neighbors, you are free to leave that area. You are also free to blacklist the objects that offend you and restore a flat green unused tranquility to your view. Anyone is able to do such things. I just don't understand why you're spending energy getting so upset with a group that is having fun and using the mainland rather than let it go to weeds and giant tracks of unused territory. 

[Prokofy Neva]

34 minutes ago, missyrideout said:

Mainland Appreciation Society, great idea! I'd love to join but I am kinda leery of appearing to take sides in years-long feuds that have nothing to do with me. *shrugs* 

Then don't?

The only groups I've had "year-long feuds" with is Woodbury, which is banned from SL. Hello? Could there be a lesson here? Griefers harass you when you AR them for bad behaviour; eventually, sometimes years later, even the Lindens ban them for cause, and that has nothing to do with me, but the thousands of other people they harassed and affected with theft, sim crashing, etc. I'm merely the visible example of a person who ARs such things.

As for GTFO, as memory is short and attention spans shorter, I never heard of Vega Firelyte, nor did I have any "years-long feud" with her or her group, until literally this thread, i.e. a few weeks ago. And objecting to blatant bad behaviour on several sims isn't a "year-long feud" in which I or "both sides" are to blame, but a clear marker delineating bad behaviour that shouldn't stand, and which if ended, would make for better Mainland living.

Deliberately seeking out an abandoned land next to someone you disagree with as a method of harassing me is not good behaviour. I wouldn't practice it myself. GTFO claims they didn't practice it deliberately, but their word isn't credible given the outrageous whoppers they are telling on every other front, i.e. claiming that an ad parcel next to them with their billboard on it is "unrelated" to them. Even if you can somehow establish actual "lack of foreknowledge" and "good will" in the purchase of this parcel right smack next to my rentals in the middle of the sim, and not roadside (where the overwhelming majority of GTFO parcels can be found), the presence of two giant billboards which I've had to repeatedly return testifies not only to a general lack of good will, but to harassment of me and my tenants personally.

Let me suggest that the foul and abusive language I got from this buyer, which began with saying I "deserve a spanking" (BDSM culture prevails everywhere it seems) and goes downhill from there -- and was AR'd -- also testifies to the lack of faith and good will here.

Once again, for the record, I RENT TO GTFO PLAYERS. 

For years, I never complained about GTFO not merely because they are my TENANTS -- HELLO! -- but because they weren't as aggressive as they are now.

They have reached a new stage of their development where they have decided to combine aggressive expansionism with a truly Kremlin-like manifestion of propaganda and denial of facts we have before our own eyes.

Let me suggest neither the one nor the other, even if it produces customers in the short run, is a good long-term business strategy.

ARing people who have encroached on your land with giant billboards, blighted the view, and ensured you are unlikely to rent that land, is not a "feud" but what you do in a democratic society under the rule of law -- not quite what we have in SL, but we have a faint proximity and so I avail myself of it.

Mainland can be appreciated when people who own Mainland stop behaving badly.

Bad behaviour includes encroachment, putting up ad boards on ad farm microparcels (an offense even the Lindens will act on at times and about which they do indeed have policies), putting "access only" on land, particularly by public thoroughfares on land or water, and in general, building ugly structures that blight the view, then lying about all of the above.

Aesthetics differ, and people wildly disagree about beauty and ugliness in SL. But when the ratio of ugly cement and steel warehouses on the map, land, and sea begin to tilt in favour of overwhelming the other fragile efforts of civilization on the Mainland, I speak up. That's what Mainland Appreciation is all about.

Vega Firelyte belives that even advocating with the Lindens -- advocating! expressing your opinion -- is somehow "forcing your ideas on other people". That's truly nuts. What's forcing your ideas on other people is when you have grid-wide projects that spread and spread and overwhelm sims. 

In real life, there are land permits, city councils, zoning laws -- we have little of that in SL *by programmed design* imposed by California-ideology technocommunists and technolibertarians (what a combo! But that is what we have).

Even so, I like to think that civil society, with the rule of law and the concept of "my right to swing my arm ends at your face" could prevail.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Prokofy Neva

[Beth Macbain]

16 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

LOL you DO realize that when you put up a picture of a sign that clearly has the letters "GTFO" on it, and then claim it is about "community" and not "hub," you merely sound ridiculous.

Booboo, if you can't take the time to learn about what it is you're actually raging against, you're the one who sounds ridiculous. 

This is not a hub. There is no freight to be picked up and/or delivered. The last I heard, this little spot was going to be something like a coffee house or bar where players could gather to chat and learn about GTFO. Why you find that so reprehensible, I have no idea. You've worked yourself into a frenzy over a meeting spot. 

I know it seldom works well to tell a woman to calm down, but you really do need to calm down. This state of indignation and rage you live in cannot be good for your health. 

[missyrideout]

Just now, Prokofy Neva said:

Then don't?

OK. I should have been more pointed in my comment. What I REALLY meant was  @Therese Tammas you seem like such a positive person excited to share your love for the mainland--that's awesome! Any regrets about hitching your wagon to this particular star? Hello? 

[Dorie Bernstein]

I've visited a fair amount of GTFO hubs. And while there are a fair number of warehouses in the mix, there are also things like diners, gas stations, a strip mall, airports, marinas, mixed use areas, even a "State Park." It's sad that your preferences of warehouse to housing ratios are driving your view of a harmless game. I suppose I'll never understand. Blacklist the billboards and find joy somewhere. 

[Prokofy Neva]

1 minute ago, Beth Macbain said:

Booboo, if you can't take the time to learn about what it is you're actually raging against, you're the one who sounds ridiculous. 

This is not a hub. There is no freight to be picked up and/or delivered. The last I heard, this little spot was going to be something like a coffee house or bar where players could gather to chat and learn about GTFO. Why you find that so reprehensible, I have no idea. You've worked yourself into a frenzy over a meeting spot. 

I know it seldom works well to tell a woman to calm down, but you really do need to calm down. This state of indignation and rage you live in cannot be good for your health. 

It's hardly "rage" that requires "a woman to calm down" (!) if I point out that your claim that this land owned by the owner of the microparcel is "not a hub".

Review the picture again.

The sign says "hub".

The issue is that the OWNER of the microparcel IS RELATED to GTFO. It is, in fact a hub, selling the vendor.

If Vega Firelyte's parcel -- which you keep deliberately confusing with the main point here about the OWNER of the MICROPARCEL AD FARM -- is "not a hub", so what? It's GTFO. AND it has a giant GTFO billboard on it.

Review the photos again.

I realize it's more fun to heckle and ridicule and deliberately confuse issues, but the signs speak for themselves.

 

[Vega Firelyte]

33 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Um, dear? You can't return someone else's prims just because you feel like it or they are "not locked down," whatever that means. You can ONLY return them when they ENCROACH ON YOUR LAND, HELLO! Which it is easy to do when they are big, ungainly, unwieldy billboards of the type that we used to have in America out west decades ago, you know, like WALL DRUGS 100 MILES...WALL DRUGS 50 MILES....WALL DRUGS 25 MILES... Ever go to Wall drugs?

I didn't slide anything. I went into edit mode, and slightly RESIZED THE PRIM. I didn't have to move a thing. And it was unnecessary as you can see from the "before" picture that shows the red line to the right of my boardwalk, even if close. Since even mathematically straight prims in SL can drift over time and actually also create optical illusions regarding their relationship to the border, there's an easy test for this: right click/return. Since it wasn't returned these last few days, I'll assume it wasn't encroaching. Meanwhile, not only were those two giant billboards encroaching, so were your plants, which I just returned again...and again.

It's not possible to return things that are not on your land, and items from BOTH your land and the microparcel of this soi-disant "unaffiliated" group encroached, and were returned.

As to "totally different region" and "not even close to where the group parcel is," this is a propagandistic literalism that even the Soviet communists would blush at.

Let's break this down again for you.

THE OWNER

OF THE MICROPARCEL

WITH THE BILLBOARD ON IT IMMEDIATELY ADJACENT TO YOUR 'FARMFRESH'

IS A GROUP

WHOSE HEADQUARTERS IN ANOTHER SIM

HAS A GTFO HUB SIGN ON IT AND VENDOR FOR SALE

THAT THEY ARE IN ANOTHER SIM MAKES NO DIFFERENCE, SINCE YOU CLAIMED THEY HAVE 'NOTHING' TO DO WITH YOUR GROUP YET

THEY HAVE GTFO INFO HUB ON THEIR HQ, SELL YOUR VENDOR, AND WHAT'S MOST SALIENT, HAVE A GIANT BILLBOARD ADVERTISING GTFO ON 

THE MICROPARCEL.

LOOK AT THE PICTURE ABOVE, PROVIDED HERE AGAIN

 

 

That's not true at all.  I've done it accidently to one of my neighbors.  Went to click on a tree of mine, hit their build directly behind it, which was fully on their land and accidently sent it back to them.  They were not on my land at all but sure as heck, it returned the item, so you ARE lying here.  As for the owner to that smaller parcel, here is the thing that might rub you wrong but it's a fact; if they want to put something on their land, they can, since they pay their bills.  Also, we have over 1300+ members for GTFO and growing.  That's a lot of people and because they are part of our member group, does not mean that they are directly related to the management.  

Oh and that reminds me, in order for it to be an "Ad farm" those boards need to be loaded with links and such.  One board with no links in it, does not make it an ad farm.  Since I do not own nor control the other one, I cannot speak for them but I don't believe they had any scripts in theirs, to my knowledge.  I do know that mine did not have any scripts for handing out LM's or NC's or anything.  Honestly, the root of this is basically you just wish to be salty as heck, make a ton of drama with false claims and be your usual overall not so delightful self.  If you wanted control of that land, why did it stand there for 12 years, according to you, empty and abandoned?  Right now, you appear to want to dictate what is done on land that you don't pay any money for.  

That vendor they have up on their hub, that is our affiliate vendor, which any of our members can get, free of charge.  Many of the hub owners have them up.  It doesn't mean that they are GTFO staff, it just means that they picked up the affiliate vendor that is available to anyone.

As for your claims of this being a hub, it's not.  The SLRR station in front of it is the hub.  This is a GTFO information area, which means it doesn't have to be directly connected to the rail system, though it is very close to it, which is perfect for this.  That is what that logo means, since I'm the person who came up with the community badge design.  It's not about hubs, it's about community, Prok, something you appear to not be fully able to grasp.

**Looked at the photo once more and the GTFO sign does NOT say hub on it.  It's a much older design that is not used normally any longer.  The word "hub" is not on it.  As for mine, that sign is for Hill Valley neighborhood.  It's a neighborhood that has homes for rent in it.  It's quite quaint and nicely done.  It's right off of Route 8, in the Bedos region.  That sign says nothing about GTFO, though the neighborhood is GTFO enabled.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Vega Firelyte
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[Prokofy Neva]

4 minutes ago, Dorie Bernstein said:

I've visited a fair amount of GTFO hubs. And while there are a fair number of warehouses in the mix, there are also things like diners, gas stations, a strip mall, airports, marinas, mixed use areas, even a "State Park." It's sad that your preferences of warehouse to housing ratios are driving your view of a harmless game. I suppose I'll never understand. Blacklist the billboards and find joy somewhere. 

I only use the official SL viewer, and I refuse to use other popular viewers with histories of abuse that many have long forgotten, even if they have the ability to "de-render".

I don't believe in de-rendering the world; I believe in good behaviour. 

I have visited literally hundreds of sims, constantly, for 15 years, because I have rentals on 50 sims and I explore a great deal to make lists of sites. And I assure you that the overwhelming majority of GTFO locations are WAREHOUSES. They might have a technical name like "Farm Fresh," as we can see from the pictures in this thread, they are still A WAREHOUSE.

Diners, strip malls, airports, marinas may not be "warehouses" but they are still made of CONCRETE AND STEEL. These are not unicorns and fairies cavorting in the druids' glen. They are industrial parks, and look like what they are.

It doesn't matter what my personal preferences are in aesthetics. I like the industrial look too, in its place.

What we have now is a situation now of literal encroachment -- on my land -- from this group -- and also encroachment in general not literal terms on the view of the map, the roads, and the waterways. One can only respond eventually with: GTFO.

[Dorie Bernstein]

1 minute ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Diners, strip malls, airports, marinas may not be "warehouses" but they are still made of CONCRETE AND STEEL. These are not unicorns and fairies cavorting in the druids' glen. They are industrial parks, and look like what they are.

It doesn't matter what my personal preferences are in aesthetics. I like the industrial look too, in its place.

 

If your personal preferences weren't an issue, then don't qualify your adoration of the industrial look "in its place." That qualification means that your preferences have dictated how much is appropriate and where it is appropriate. If you want tighter control over your views in Second Life, buy private regions and leave the mainland to the rest of us peasants who are seeking to have some harmless fun. Then you won't have to get upset when we step on your toes in our zeal to create our world. 

[Prokofy Neva]

3 minutes ago, Vega Firelyte said:

That's not true at all.  I've done it accidently to one of my neighbors.  Went to click on a tree of mine, hit their build directly behind it, which was fully on their land and accidently sent it back to them.  They were not on my land at all but sure as heck, it returned the item, so you ARE lying here.  As for the owner to that smaller parcel, here is the thing that might rub you wrong but it's a fact; if they want to put something on their land, they can, since they pay their bills.  Also, we have over 1300+ members for GTFO and growing.  That's a lot of people and because they are part of our member group, does not mean that they are directly related to the management.  

Oh and that reminds me, in order for it to be an "Ad farm" those boards need to be loaded with links and such.  One board with no links in it, does not make it an ad farm.  Since I do not own nor control the other one, I cannot speak for them but I don't believe they had any scripts in theirs, to my knowledge.  I do know that mine did not have any scripts for handing out LM's or NC's or anything.  Honestly, the root of this is basically you just wish to be salty as heck, make a ton of drama with false claims and be your usual overall not so delightful self.  If you wanted control of that land, why did it stand there for 12 years, according to you, empty and abandoned?  Right now, you appear to want to dictate what is done on land that you don't pay any money for.  

That vendor they have up on their hub, that is our affiliate vendor, which any of our members can get, free of charge.  Many of the hub owners have them up.  It doesn't mean that they are GTFO staff, it just means that they picked up the affiliate vendor that is available to anyone.

As for your claims of this being a hub, it's not.  The SLRR station in front of it is the hub.  This is a GTFO information area, which means it doesn't have to be directly connected to the rail system, though it is very close to it, which is perfect for this.  That is what that logo means, since I'm the person who came up with the community badge design.  It's not about hubs, it's about community, Prok, something you appear to not be fully able to grasp.

Oh, what's you're confirming is one of the abuses of the popular Firestorm viewer which indeed does sometimes enable return of prims, usually of the same group but not always. On some rare days, I can reach over half way across a parcel in one of my sims, and return a giant billboard of an aggressive neighbour with ad boards; on most other days I can't, and that's even on the regular SL viewer. On the Firestorm viewer this is more frequent.  It may depend on the channel the software is deployed on; or who knows what.

BTW this bug -- and it's a bug, not a feature -- stems from the reluctance of certain Lindens to fix the code that enables this to happen especially in group-set prims even by members of that group not entitled under the group permissions to return group-set prims IF they are in share.

Often when you can return an item it is because the individual has foolishly left it in "share".

But the overwhelming use case is you CANNOT return a prim NOT on your land. Anyone can prove this by going inworld, standing on your property, and trying to return prims of your neighbours. You get a standard message: "Removal of the object [x] is disallowed by the permissions system".

Because it's...disallowed.

That is the norm.

Ad farms are universally understood to be microparcels on which ad boards are contained which are part of a system, i.e. one can find the exact same ad board on the same or other sims.

In your case, there are two GTFO ads on two parcels, one a microparcel, the other not, but this does constitute a violation of the ad policy. 

If an ad board doesn't have a link or script, that doesn't mean anything. It's irrelevant. The Lindens have never said anything of the sort verbally or in written policy -- that only scripted boards or boards with Internet links are violatory. The policy is about ad boards, period, on microparcels, period BECAUSE THEY BLIGHT THE VIEW AND DEVALUE ADJACENT PROPERTY.

I'm chuckling that you have gone, within the space of the hour, from saying the microparcel next to you had "nothing" to do with your group and was "unrelated" to having your gal pals here post that they "aren't a hub," to saying that yes, they are a hub, and yes they have an affiliate vendor. Good work Vega Firelyte! But what you are doing is confirming your relationship.

Why your "affiliate" needs to plant an ad for GTFO RIGHT SMACK NEXT to your "Farm Fresh" where you ALSO have an ad board is BEYOND ME. It makes no financial sense and is not lawful.

Once again, as I've already clearly stated at least 3 times, the GTFO hub *is owned by the same owner of the ad farm parcel*. You can skirt the technicality of claiming "Farm Fresh" is "not" a hub, or the VRC railroad is "not a hub" by pointing out that they are not hubs but merely locations in the glorious network of GTFO on the grid, replete with the sky-blighting logo visible on the map. But that's ridiculous. It's not the point. It's not about "wholly-owned subsidiaries" and offshore paper corporations you hide in Cyprus. It's about visible signs with your logo and your initials on the grid that blight the view. You are distracting from that salient fact with all this other nonsense. But keep talking, you self-discredit in this way.

"Communities" that achieve their "unity" by inflicting large billboards all over the grid, interfering with other actual communities' Second Life, cannot morally bear claim to that term. 

And there's basic disconnect here. On the one hand, you claim the people that buy the kit from the vendors and put up warehouses or lovely little fairy glens on their land to play the game are people you have no control of, who "do what they want". You say that people who put up a giant GTFO billboard on a microparcel are "unrelated" to you or at best now (you admit) "an affiliate" and you don't coordinate their actions. But then you insist it's all Kumbayah and apple pie and a "community" of people heartily enjoying glass, steel, and concrete who can tell me, who has actually real communities for thousands of people for 15 years, that I understand nothing about community.

As I said, keep talking, you self-discredit.

[Prokofy Neva]

9 minutes ago, Dorie Bernstein said:

If your personal preferences weren't an issue, then don't qualify your adoration of the industrial look "in its place." That qualification means that your preferences have dictated how much is appropriate and where it is appropriate. If you want tighter control over your views in Second Life, buy private regions and leave the mainland to the rest of us peasants who are seeking to have some harmless fun. Then you won't have to get upset when we step on your toes in our zeal to create our world. 

It's a frequent fallacy of forums-dwellers that if someone expresses an opinion they don't like, that they have "forced" it on others. I marvel at this disingenuous slight of hand since no one can in fact do that in SL. If someone wants to put up a giant ugly industrial build and billboard on their land, you can't do a thing about it except return it if it encroaches on their land, and hope that decency and common sense might prevail.

I don't need to buy more expensive private islands without sailing around them when in fact I am a peasant who has farmed the Mainland since long before you were born and have absolutely no intention of leaving.

That's why I speak up when I see groups literally and spiritually encroaching on the grid. That such groups can martial their fanboyz and whistle for their Lindens on the forums matter not to me -- I've lived too long and realize that most things in SL don't last even 30 days, and that those things that do, can change within five years, and that is our hope.

[Dorie Bernstein]

GTFO has been around over 30 days, so set the clock for that five year arc you mention. Meanwhile, the rest of us will go about our lives and forget to worry if it will upset or annoy aged members on the next lawn. I never claimed you forced your views on us. I merely suggested that the path to joy and a beautiful view would be easier to find in removing yourself from the giant sources of frustration you find around you. Mine, is a giant rainbow particle bridge that arcs over the railroad in the Xanthorhoe/Malacosoma area. It doesn't fall within my preferences, but it makes them happy. So, I steam on.

May you find a path to joy soon!

[Vega Firelyte]

3 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Oh, what's you're confirming is one of the abuses of the popular Firestorm viewer which indeed does sometimes enable return of prims, usually of the same group but not always. On some rare days, I can reach over half way across a parcel in one of my sims, and return a giant billboard of an aggressive neighbour with ad boards; on most other days I can't, and that's even on the regular SL viewer. On the Firestorm viewer this is more frequent.  It may depend on the channel the software is deployed on; or who knows what.

BTW this bug -- and it's a bug, not a feature -- stems from the reluctance of certain Lindens to fix the code that enables this to happen especially in group-set prims even by members of that group not entitled under the group permissions to return group-set prims IF they are in share.

Often when you can return an item it is because the individual has foolishly left it in "share".

But the overwhelming use case is you CANNOT return a prim NOT on your land. Anyone can prove this by going inworld, standing on your property, and trying to return prims of your neighbours. You get a standard message: "Removal of the object [x] is disallowed by the permissions system".

Because it's...disallowed.

That is the norm.

Ad farms are universally understood to be microparcels on which ad boards are contained which are part of a system, i.e. one can find the exact same ad board on the same or other sims.

In your case, there are two GTFO ads on two parcels, one a microparcel, the other not, but this does constitute a violation of the ad policy. 

If an ad board doesn't have a link or script, that doesn't mean anything. It's irrelevant. The Lindens have never said anything of the sort verbally or in written policy -- that only scripted boards or boards with Internet links are violatory. The policy is about ad boards, period, on microparcels, period BECAUSE THEY BLIGHT THE VIEW AND DEVALUE ADJACENT PROPERTY.

I'm chuckling that you have gone, within the space of the hour, from saying the microparcel next to you had "nothing" to do with your group and was "unrelated" to having your gal pals here post that they "aren't a hub," to saying that yes, they are a hub, and yes they have an affiliate vendor. Good work Vega Firelyte! But what you are doing is confirming your relationship.

Why your "affiliate" needs to plant an ad for GTFO RIGHT SMACK NEXT to your "Farm Fresh" where you ALSO have an ad board is BEYOND ME. It makes no financial sense and is not lawful.

Once again, as I've already clearly stated at least 3 times, the GTFO hub *is owned by the same owner of the ad farm parcel*. You can skirt the technicality of claiming "Farm Fresh" is "not" a hub, or the VRC railroad is "not a hub" by pointing out that they are not hubs but merely locations in the glorious network of GTFO on the grid, replete with the sky-blighting logo visible on the map. But that's ridiculous. It's not the point. It's not about "wholly-owned subsidiaries" and offshore paper corporations you hide in Cyprus. It's about visible signs with your logo and your initials on the grid that blight the view. You are distracting from that salient fact with all this other nonsense. But keep talking, you self-discredit in this way.

"Communities" that achieve their "unity" by inflicting large billboards all over the grid, interfering with other actual communities' Second Life, cannot morally bear claim to that term. 

And there's basic disconnect here. On the one hand, you claim the people that buy the kit from the vendors and put up warehouses or lovely little fairy glens on their land to play the game are people you have no control of, who "do what they want". You say that people who put up a giant GTFO billboard on a microparcel are "unrelated" to you or at best now (you admit) "an affiliate" and you don't coordinate their actions. But then you insist it's all Kumbayah and apple pie and a "community" of people heartily enjoying glass, steel, and concrete who can tell me, who has actually real communities for thousands of people for 15 years, that I understand nothing about community.

As I said, keep talking, you self-discredit.

You may want to get your glasses.  I said the small parcel can do what they wish, that is their land.  As for the hub they have, their vendor is available to everyone.  That hub you took a photo of, is appox. 12-13 regions away from where the group land and the small parcel is.  As for the rest of your post, I'm not going to waste my time with it Prok.  You do those posts just to either see yourself writing a ton of bland, boring stuff that is just not interesting enough to read or you are trying to impress yourself on how intelligent you believe you sound.  As for my credit, I just state the facts, so my credit is fine and with your behavior earlier and your threats, I would say you need to tend to your own a little more closely. 

Anyone can take one of those boards from the company and use them.  GTFO supplies them to the members, if they wish to get them.  You can get them on MP or at the HQ Office. Honestly, you are just reaching now.  I have a better idea, how about I ask a Linden on all of this?  I'm going to have a chat regarding your little manifest filled with the details on how you intend to harass anyways, so I may as well ask about those as well.  

[Prokofy Neva]

5 minutes ago, Vega Firelyte said:

You may want to get your glasses.  I said the small parcel can do what they wish, that is their land.  As for the hub they have, their vendor is available to everyone.  That hub you took a photo of, is appox. 12-13 regions away from where the group land and the small parcel is.  As for the rest of your post, I'm not going to waste my time with it Prok.  You do those posts just to either see yourself writing a ton of bland, boring stuff that is just not interesting enough to read or you are trying to impress yourself on how intelligent you believe you sound.  As for my credit, I just state the facts, so my credit is fine and with your behavior earlier and your threats, I would say you need to tend to your own a little more closely. 

Anyone can take one of those boards from the company and use them.  GTFO supplies them to the members, if they wish to get them.  You can get them on MP or at the HQ Office. Honestly, you are just reaching now.  I have a better idea, how about I ask a Linden on all of this?  I'm going to have a chat regarding your little manifest filled with the details on how you intend to harass anyways, so I may as well ask about those as well.  

Let's go over it again.

It doesn't matter that the headquarters of the owner of the microparcel is on another sim.

You claimed (before editing your text) that they were "unrelated" so I demonstrated that in fact they are a GTFO hub and have your vendors.

More to the point, on the sim with my rentals, they have a large billboard with an ad for GTFO on it.

Once again, I refer you to the repeatedly published photos above.

Look at them.

The group owner of the microparcel next to your warehouse has a billboard with a GTFO ad.

It's not there now (or wasn';t an hour ago) because I returned it; it encroached. Like the ad billboard you also deployed.

No glasses are needed to see on this same sim, on land you own, and on a microparcel of a group affiliated to you, are large ugly billboards.

This is the fact, and your constant reference to how they can "do what they want on their land" or "anyone can have a vendor" or "they are on another sim" are all beside the point because we can all see with unarmed eyes that GTFO is the logo in our faces and in our view.

To claim that "anyone" who can get these vendors "just happened" to buy a microparcel RIGHT at the EXACT same time as you bought your current warehouse parcel -- which was carved off a larger abandoned land, and split, and sold to that group for an ad parcel -- simply staggers the imagination.

But as I said, keep talking, it self discredits. I'm done here. Go right ahead and chat with your Lindens all you wish. Responding to someone who harasses you with bans, return of encroaching articles, and launching mass petitions to the leadership and the Lindens to take action on bad behaviour are all LEGAL in SL. They themselves aren't harassment; they are responses to harassment.

[Prokofy Neva]

13 minutes ago, Dorie Bernstein said:

GTFO has been around over 30 days, so set the clock for that five year arc you mention. Meanwhile, the rest of us will go about our lives and forget to worry if it will upset or annoy aged members on the next lawn. I never claimed you forced your views on us. I merely suggested that the path to joy and a beautiful view would be easier to find in removing yourself from the giant sources of frustration you find around you. Mine, is a giant rainbow particle bridge that arcs over the railroad in the Xanthorhoe/Malacosoma area. It doesn't fall within my preferences, but it makes them happy. So, I steam on.

May you find a path to joy soon!

I'm on the path to joy, dear. And giant billboards don't "upset" me -- I take action on them, I AR them, I return them when they encroach but I have 100 other things to do, including many other creative projects that give me more joy than surely the neighbours of steel and concrete warehouses experience in SL. I don't remove myself from land I paid real money for, and which is rented to my tenants. That giant rainbow particle bridge is quite a scourge on the view. I totally appreciate people like to experiment with builds and particles -- I do myself. I think the Lindens should have created zoned sims for this purpose from the get-go. The number of people who want giant particle rainbows and giant monsters and other giant uglies in the sky and on the ground is actually far, far smaller than people who just want ordinary nice homes on well-manicured sims.

The popularity of Bellisseria proves that.

The people have not demanded rainbow particle bridges; they demanded quaint little wooden bridges built by loving Moles over burbling brooks.

That some of us still got left behind on the legacy mainland with the giant particle rainbows and spectacularly stupid and ugly plywood messes that remain as long as 12 years on some sims is the tragedy of the commons, but it is not one I intend to suffer lightly.

[Vega Firelyte]

2 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Let's go over it again.

It doesn't matter that the headquarters of the owner of the microparcel is on another sim.

You claimed (before editing your text) that they were "unrelated" so I demonstrated that in fact they are a GTFO hub and have your vendors.

More to the point, on the sim with my rentals, they have a large billboard with an ad for GTFO on it.

Once again, I refer you to the repeatedly published photos above.

Look at them.

The group owner of the microparcel next to your warehouse has a billboard with a GTFO ad.

It's not there now (or wasn';t an hour ago) because I returned it; it encroached. Like the ad billboard you also deployed.

No glasses are needed to see on this same sim, on land you own, and on a microparcel of a group affiliated to you, are large ugly billboards.

This is the fact, and your constant reference to how they can "do what they want on their land" or "anyone can have a vendor" or "they are on another sim" are all beside the point because we can all see with unarmed eyes that GTFO is the logo in our faces and in our view.

To claim that "anyone" who can get these vendors "just happened" to buy a microparcel RIGHT at the EXACT same time as you bought your current warehouse parcel -- which was carved off a larger abandoned land, and split, and sold to that group for an ad parcel -- simply staggers the imagination.

But as I said, keep talking, it self discredits. I'm done here. Go right ahead and chat with your Lindens all you wish. Responding to someone who harasses you with bans, return of encroaching articles, and launching mass petitions to the leadership and the Lindens to take action on bad behaviour are all LEGAL in SL. They themselves aren't harassment; they are responses to harassment.

1. Whether you wish to admit to this or not, the board on the small one was not on your land, nor was it encroaching since I checked it to make sure it wasn't on my land when I originally seen it.  So we both know you are lying there.  Yes you can send things back like that, which I pointed out earlier, when I did it myself at one time, accidentally.  

2.  That edit, was to add that you were full of it.  There is no hub there and I pointed that out.  You went from a beef about what you thought was a hub, to billboards.  As someone kindly pointed out, derezz is your friend.  You want to claim ad farming but here is the thing, it's not.  There are no links, no nc's or scripts in mine to advertise with.  Heck, mine doesn't even have the GTFO logo on it and the build of it is actually really nice.  Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that the creator who made it, didn't do a good job.  In fact, she did a great job on creating that board and only 1 prim.  That's impressive.

3. That smaller parcel was purchased AFTER the group one was bought.  Check the dates of purchase.  You are old enough on here to know how to do that.  The dates are not the same at all.

4.  You claim bad behavior but the only one who has been showing that has been you.  You made a point of coming over to that area to try to cause drama.  Your board walk was over the property line and I was not even going to make an issue of it because I didn't think it was worth bothering about.  It's at the back of the building, so why split hairs on that.  It was like that since the property was picked up for the group, which was a few days ago.  You adjusted it while I was standing there earlier, so you could take a photo, to claim it wasn't encroaching.  No one made a big deal about it.  No one was harassing you but you have been trying to harass me.  You have literally outlined how you are going to try to AR me at every turn, which is probably your attempt at trying to get me to abandon the land and you have claimed that you are going to AR me for bad behavior that I haven't even done.  You have stated that you are going to do "mass petitions" to the Linden's so that they can enforce your view point on someone.  Is this your form or type of advocation that you ascribe to?  All of this over a simple billboard that you can very easily derezz?  

[Prokofy Neva]

1 minute ago, Vega Firelyte said:

1. Whether you wish to admit to this or not, the board on the small one was not on your land, nor was it encroaching since I checked it to make sure it wasn't on my land when I originally seen it.  So we both know you are lying there.  Yes you can send things back like that, which I pointed out earlier, when I did it myself at one time, accidentally.  

2.  That edit, was to add that you were full of it.  There is no hub there and I pointed that out.  You went from a beef about what you thought was a hub, to billboards.  As someone kindly pointed out, derezz is your friend.  You want to claim ad farming but here is the thing, it's not.  There are no links, no nc's or scripts in mine to advertise with.  Heck, mine doesn't even have the GTFO logo on it and the build of it is actually really nice.  Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that the creator who made it, didn't do a good job.  In fact, she did a great job on creating that board and only 1 prim.  That's impressive.

3. That smaller parcel was purchased AFTER the group one was bought.  Check the dates of purchase.  You are old enough on here to know how to do that.  The dates are not the same at all.

4.  You claim bad behavior but the only one who has been showing that has been you.  You made a point of coming over to that area to try to cause drama.  Your board walk was over the property line and I was not even going to make an issue of it because I didn't think it was worth bothering about.  It's at the back of the building, so why split hairs on that.  It was like that since the property was picked up for the group, which was a few days ago.  You adjusted it while I was standing there earlier, so you could take a photo, to claim it wasn't encroaching.  No one made a big deal about it.  No one was harassing you but you have been trying to harass me.  You have literally outlined how you are going to try to AR me at every turn, which is probably your attempt at trying to get me to abandon the land and you have claimed that you are going to AR me for bad behavior that I haven't even done.  You have stated that you are going to do "mass petitions" to the Linden's so that they can enforce your view point on someone.  Is this your form or type of advocation that you ascribe to?  All of this over a simple billboard that you can very easily derezz?  

Just to keep setting the record straight here: the giant billboard on the small parcel was indeed encroaching on my land and that was how I was able to return it. As I explained above, generally you CANNOT return other people's prims. I could because it encroached. If you experience a bug now and then that doesn't undermine the point: you can't return billboards you don't like unless they are on your land. The end. Ask the Lindens. Also test it inworld on anything you like, and you'll get the error message.

Once again -- for the fifth time? -- the hub in question is on the other sim on the headquarters of the owner of the microparcel next to you on THAT sim and that perhaps too-complex concept that flew over your head is involved because....it shows your affiliation.

A group that owns land on one sim, next to you, with no hub, but a giant ad board (it's only 112 m), is proven to have affiliation with you not only by the stark fact that they have a GTFO billboard but because on another sim, they have a hub. They do have a hub. You are related. Therefore it beggars belief that they appeared, right next to your warehouse, on the same day you did, right next to you, sporting a GTFO ad board. This is no accident, comrade.

Dates are not reliable. I have seen abandoned land that I myself claimed on a certain day that I know I claimed because I have the purchase record in "my accounts" show a different date later. I have seen other land bought by other people that I know was purchased recently show a date even of another month or year. It's very common. So generally I accept claim date records. But they are not fully reliable. And in this case, since I come to that sim pretty much every day to take care of tenants, I know what I saw last week: abandoned land. And what I see now: two parcels with GTFO on them. If their dates don't match, that is irrelevant because YOU ARE RELATED. It isn't mere coincidence that they showed up there next to you, and indeed even with an ad FOR YOUR GROUP.

People who cut land and sell to ad farmers; who violate the ad policy; who encroach on others' land can and should be AR'd, and you are properly notified of that, and repeatedly, and you are banned, and if this constitutes "a threat," I can only point out that it is legal activity that is in response to illegal activity. 

Indeed I will do mass petitions on people that deliberately not only violate the regular TOS rules, but connive to lie and disinform about their shenanigans deliberately buying land next to me to get in my fact. If no one can prove that, that's fine, because there is ample evidence of other harassment, like nasty, vulgar IMs with swear words which are also ARable.

Once again, I don't de-render. I use the SL viewer. It has no de-render feature. I'm not required to use third-party viewers with histories of abuse (including the ability to return other people's prims in defiance of the permissions system) and I don't.

I see now that you are impermeable to facts and reason, patiently documented for you, including with photos. So I can only head on to the rest of my list, bans, ARs, and petitions.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

2 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

Prok, why are you posting photos of two completely different parcels? That top picture with the big hub sign is in a different region and is owned by someone unrelated to any of this.

Um, because they aren't unrelated. That group is entirely related because not only are they just some random affiliate; they are closely linked. They are a hub. They are everywhere GTFO is. They advertise GTFO. AND most relevant, they advertise this on a microparcel right next to my rentals in the sim in question. Hello!

So let's go over it again -- I know it's so complicated! -- Their group is the owner of the microparcel in the sim next to my rentals.

On that microparcel -- clearly cut off and sold to them by the owner of the larger parcel, GTFO -- is -- guess what -- a GTFO billboard.

That is a billboard with a GTFO ad on it, in case that's not clear.

Here's what links these two parcels: GTFO.

The claim was made that the ad parcel next to Vega Firelyte's parcel was "unrelated". She then admitted this was an "affiliate" which are people who can "do what they want" and over which she has "no control".

Mkay, so what this company did was...put up a giant billboard with GTFO advertised on it lol.

Why that would be necessary right smack next to a warehouse that ALSO had a GTFO board on it is hard to understand, but you know empire-builders, they like duplication.

Let me show you the picture again so you can study how these two parcels are related -- and -- I know it's a stretch -- you can then grasp that on an entirely different sim, where this group has its headquarters, we can learn the additional fact that they are a GTFO hub.

So study the purple and white sign.

What do you see?

You see the letters GTFO.

 

 

[Vega Firelyte]

23 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Just to keep setting the record straight here: the giant billboard on the small parcel was indeed encroaching on my land and that was how I was able to return it. As I explained above, generally you CANNOT return other people's prims. I could because it encroached. If you experience a bug now and then that doesn't undermine the point: you can't return billboards you don't like unless they are on your land. The end. Ask the Lindens. Also test it inworld on anything you like, and you'll get the error message.

Once again -- for the fifth time? -- the hub in question is on the other sim on the headquarters of the owner of the microparcel next to you on THAT sim and that perhaps too-complex concept that flew over your head is involved because....it shows your affiliation.

A group that owns land on one sim, next to you, with no hub, but a giant ad board (it's only 112 m), is proven to have affiliation with you not only by the stark fact that they have a GTFO billboard but because on another sim, they have a hub. They do have a hub. You are related. Therefore it beggars belief that they appeared, right next to your warehouse, on the same day you did, right next to you, sporting a GTFO ad board. This is no accident, comrade.

Dates are not reliable. I have seen abandoned land that I myself claimed on a certain day that I know I claimed because I have the purchase record in "my accounts" show a different date later. I have seen other land bought by other people that I know was purchased recently show a date even of another month or year. It's very common. So generally I accept claim date records. But they are not fully reliable. And in this case, since I come to that sim pretty much every day to take care of tenants, I know what I saw last week: abandoned land. And what I see now: two parcels with GTFO on them. If their dates don't match, that is irrelevant because YOU ARE RELATED. It isn't mere coincidence that they showed up there next to you, and indeed even with an ad FOR YOUR GROUP.

People who cut land and sell to ad farmers; who violate the ad policy; who encroach on others' land can and should be AR'd, and you are properly notified of that, and repeatedly, and you are banned, and if this constitutes "a threat," I can only point out that it is legal activity that is in response to illegal activity. 

Indeed I will do mass petitions on people that deliberately not only violate the regular TOS rules, but connive to lie and disinform about their shenanigans deliberately buying land next to me to get in my fact. If no one can prove that, that's fine, because there is ample evidence of other harassment, like nasty, vulgar IMs with swear words which are also ARable.

Once again, I don't de-render. I use the SL viewer. It has no de-render feature. I'm not required to use third-party viewers with histories of abuse (including the ability to return other people's prims in defiance of the permissions system) and I don't.

I see now that you are impermeable to facts and reason, patiently documented for you, including with photos. So I can only head on to the rest of my list, bans, ARs, and petitions.

 

No matter what I say, you have convinced yourself that there is a relation.  I'm not going to go around and around this with you.  Your facts are wrong but please, AR it and report it if you feel that you need to.  The group never owned that little piece of land.  End.of.story.  But you knock yourself out there Pork because, to put it bluntly, I'm too busy to do this with you.  I have too many things to do for setting up this info area and working on different projects, than dealing with the drama that your brain has imagined up and honestly, this thread has been seriously derailed more than enough with your dementia.