Nothing really changes :)

[Phil Deakins]

I followed a link in another thread that went to a page of archived posts from a previous incarnation of the forum. We were talking about total posts being carried forward to new forum software and log in dates. While I was in the archived posts, I wandered around a bit and came across this thread:- http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/327/2c/353575/1.html

Only a week or three ago, we had one here that was pretty much exactly like it . The arguments were the same now as they were then, and the only difference was that the weight between the sides has shifted a bit.

I thought it was interesting

[Love Zhaoying]

Did you make a better argument in that thread? Unfortunately, that old forum is barely readable for me (I’m almost always on mobile).

[Phil Deakins]

Pity. I didn't actually make arguments. I asked questions about what people thought. Some made the same arguments that people still make, and some, including me, made the same points that I still make. Nothing changes

ETA: I didn't need any better arguments. My points are 100% valid, always have been, and there aren't any better. It was always a case of each to his/her own.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Phil Deakins

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

ETA: I didn't need any better arguments. My points are 100% valid, always have been, and there aren't any better. It was always a case of each to his/her own.

Good for you. Remember, there is no right and wrong, either!

[Qie Niangao]

Arguments or not, it was even then cast in a weird moralistic tone of what people "should" expect. That baits some equally irrelevant responses about zero marginal cost of copies, and as always the thread drifts into predictably pointless performative thumb-sucking. So yeah, plus ça change, etc.

That's so long ago I can't remember whether it was before or after the spell when rezzing some items failed literally most of the time instead of the steady-state single-digit percentage that folks had grown to expect. That was the point when nearly all animators stopped offering no-copy animations, as customers lost AO after AO containing even one no-copy anim, flooding animators with desperate pleas for replacements.

[Phil Deakins]

It was me who asked if people thought that certain things "should" happen, Qie, so you can blame me for that. But that's what I started the thread for (that one, not this one lol). I wanted to know if anyone genuinely thought that certain things should happen, sort of like a moral thing. Similar to a few people who genuinely think that everything in SL should be free.

[Luna Bliss]

It's possible that some do change their mind in a debate, or at the very least develop an understanding of the perspective from the opposite side. However, my theory is that most are reluctant to admit a change of mind, or even admit they understand the other side better, because winning is usually valued over learning. Changing one's mind as well as exhibiting a tentative, uncertain stance on issues is seen as weakness.

I wish people more often would value learning instead -- it would be great if more would value openess and learning from experience and be willing to face the uncomfortable sense of uncertaintly that is actually more based in reality. I do see some forums that exhibit this quality from time to time, but it's rare.

[Callum Meriman]

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

Only a week or three ago, we had one here that was pretty much exactly like it . The arguments were the same now as they were then, and the only difference was that the weight between the sides has shifted a bit.

Phil, have you changed your mind on the furniture in the Linden Homes on SSP? What were your words again?

On 9/21/2018 at 7:07 PM, Phil Deakins said:

I'm letting my imagination wander now, and I'm imagining that a prim, or prims, in the homes will contain the furniture, and the tenant will be able to click to remove or rez it, room by room. When it's rezzed, each piece will be repositionable, and deleteable. That would be a nice system for the homes. Nice for landlords too. I wonder if any do it.

 

[Phil Deakins]

I haven't changed my mind, Callum. I didn't make up my mind. I only offered something that I imagined. And even then, I don't see the link between that and this particular topic.

[Callum Meriman]

1 minute ago, Phil Deakins said:

I haven't changed my mind, Callum. I didn't make up my mind. I only offered something that I imagined. And even then, I don't see the link between that and this particular topic.

Such rezzers only work with copy furniture. No copy furniture, like the stuff you used to make, would self-delete.

So, extrapolating your thought on the rezzer and that it needs copy... do you like the idea of other people's furniture being copy but not yours?

[Love Zhaoying]

21 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

winning is usually valued over learning

This reminds me of a lesson I am striving to learn: Listen to understand, not to respond.

[Love Zhaoying]

51 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

It was me who asked if people thought that certain things "should" happen,

For those “should-ers”, I’ve got large shoulders. And, a little devil on my shoulder.

[Phil Deakins]

7 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

Such rezzers only work with copy furniture. No copy furniture, like the stuff you used to make, would self-delete.

So, extrapolating your thought on the rezzer and that it needs copy... do you like the idea of other people's furniture being copy but not yours?

Ah. So you're continuing the very old thread here, but without saying where it's from. Sneaky.

I'm not at all sure what you're getting at though. If LL provide furniture for the Linden Homes, that's LL, and nothing to do with furniture sellers. I really don't know what you're asking. What I do know though, it that this thread is not for continuing an old discussion from  2008 or from a few weeks ago. That's not why I created it, and it's not something that I'll participate in.

[LoveXiaoying]

1 minute ago, Phil Deakins said:

Ah. So you're continuing the very old thread here, but without saying where it's from. Sneaky.

I (actually Love Zhaoying) tried to quote his quote and failed, so I replied to the original thread. Just unlocked LoveX's account (oops).

[Callum Meriman]

Just now, Phil Deakins said:

If LL provide furniture for the Linden Homes, that's LL, and nothing to do with furniture sellers.

If it were mole furniture, your point would be valid, but you do say:

1 minute ago, Phil Deakins said:

Nice for landlords too. I wonder if any do it.

So, by your own words you are seeing the worth of a landlord having a way for their tenants to rez/derez furniture.

Glad to see you coming around though. Copy has it's place, furniture is one of those places.

2 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

What I do know though, it that this thread is not for continuing an old discussion from  2008 or from a few weeks ago.

Ah Phil, you should know the forums better then that. You don't get to dictate the direction, remember? You put your topic up and people will comment as they want!

 Now as for "purpose" You title it "Nothing really changes", you link an old forum thread about the worth of copy permissions, and then want to forbid people talking about that? pfft.

5 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

it's not something that I'll participate in.

Bully for you  

And I'm pleased to see you have joined the side of people wanting their Landlords to have Copy/Mod furniture!

[Luna Bliss]

18 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

41 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

winning is usually valued over learning

This reminds me of a lesson I am striving to learn: Listen to understand, not to respond.

Me too! When we're focused on proving the other right or wrong we miss the ability to see a different perspective. It's like coming into a situation with preconceived notions where one just proves their perceptions and locks out any perspectives that don't fit.

[Luna Bliss]

13 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

That's not why I created it

It's an interesting topic..

Why do you think people don't change? Or do you think, as I do, that sometimes they do change but are reluctant to admit it....because it's seen as a weakness...?

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It's like coming into a situation with preconceived notions where one just proves their perceptions and locks out any perspectives that don't fit.

Can you imagine how confusing SL is to inflexible people? Rules, griefers, scams, friendship, Furries, roleplay, fantasy sim..all must be too much for them.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Why do you think people don't change? Or do you think, as I do, that sometimes they do change but are reluctant to admit it....because it's seen as a weakness...?

I’m curious to see if response is, “that’s not what I said/meant” by “nothing ever changes”. 

[Phil Deakins]

16 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

Glad to see you coming around though. Copy has it's place, furniture is one of those places.

Copy always had its place with furniture. I've never said, or even hinted, at anything different. I created and sold a temp rezzer for goodness sakes.

 

16 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

Ah Phil, you should know the forums better then that. You don't get to dictate the direction, remember? You put your topic up and people will comment as they want!

True. But don't bring me into it. I started the thread for one reason only - because I thought it was interesting. You can turn it into what you want but I won't be involved - unless, that is, there are more untruths posted about me in it, like the false implication that I responded to in this post.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Phil Deakins

[Phil Deakins]

9 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It's an interesting topic..

Why do you think people don't change? Or do you think, as I do, that sometimes they do change but are reluctant to admit it....because it's seen as a weakness...?

I didn't say that people don't change. If you think I did, please quote it. What hasn't changed are the arguments haven't changed

Edited October 4, 2018 by Phil Deakins

[Callum Meriman]

Just now, Phil Deakins said:

I started the thread for one reason only - because I thought it was interesting. You can turn it into what you want but I won't be involved - unless, that is, there is more untruths posted about me in it.

I think it's great. But you have disproved your own thread title. You have changed!

You see a far greater worth now in copy furniture, up from your 2008 statement about rezzers. They have a real purpose for Landlords so they can do this sort of thing.

And, most importantly you say

23 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

it's not something that I'll participate in

And, without disrepect meant, that's a huge change. Normally you can't stop. You need the last word.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Phil Deakins said:

because I thought it was interesting.

Do you think that we should start quoting archived forum posts more often, just like we quote current posts? That would be interesting.

[Callum Meriman]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Do you think that we should start quoting archived forum posts more often

YCH slap, Love ❤️ 

Necros of archive threads, OMG.

But, I guess Halloween doth approach.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Callum Meriman said:

YCH slap, Love ❤️ 

Necros of archive threads, OMG.

But, I guess Halloween doth approach.

I can see it now, “as you can clearly see in this archived post, I have been saying the same thing since 2008..I advise you to read the old forums, as I shall not participate in a new discussion on the topic.”