A serious request!

[kiramanell]

I like to request that LL raise the video memory limit.

With the advent of 'materials', essentially the video memory requirements have tripled (max case). Yet the limit remains, stubbornly, set at 512MB, which is, no offense, ridiculously low.

I have requested an increase before; as have others. The answer is invariably the same; something like "We've looked into it... 32-bit... some issues with AMD..., etc." Honestly, these answers are pretty lame. *Every* game out there, for the last ten years (and yes, SL is like a game in this context) has been able to use however much memory your card has available. Imagine, say, the makers of Crysis 3 fobbing you off with some story about 32-bit, and no, sorry, no can do!

I'm quite serious here. I think LL needs to proudly march into the 21st century, and put some effort into doing what other game makers have accomplished a good decade before already: to use if not all, than at least almost all your available video card memory for SL.

The detractors are often hilariously funny. Like I'm being told SL can't use your available video memory, because Windows won't release it again afterwards. (Sic!) Yeah; how many games have you recently played that said 'Sorry, you have to reboot now, as we used up all your memory.'!?

Seriously, LL needs to stop making silly excuses. Especially since the request for a raise to the memory limit is not unreasonable at all. I have many materials-enabled scenes, most of which are (even when small-ish) only half-finished, as I'm beginning to run out of video memory on them (you can watch it on your graphics menu, and you know you're hosed when memory usage starts to tilt that 512MB limit, and things start to blur). Could I strip all those materials-enabled scenes, and replace and/or disable the materials altogether. Sure. I don't *want* to, though. Instead I want LL to follow suit on their memory-tripling introduction of materials, and actually start to use all my card's video memory (I have 4G). Or at least scale the memory limit in accordance with the tripling of the memory requirements for materials.

It's beginning to affect my enjoyment of SL: if half my homes start blurring, then I'm half inclined to stop being in SL and spend money on it. Can't put it any simpler than that.

[Derek Torvalar]

LL aren't taking requests at this time. There is no one in here to see your request even if they were.

Your rant might have been better placed in the Tech Forum, GD section.

[Ren Toxx]

In many of the numerous discussions about this issue, I’ve seen commented that the 512 Mb. is “a soft limit”, something along the lines that the viewer doesn’t actually “stop cold” at 512 Mb., refusing to load anything else even if the graphics card has more available memory, but rather keeps going if actually necessary. I would say that this is likely true, as I’ve often opened the textures console and seen the numbers raising well past that, often without making the “bias” climb which, in turn, causes the blurring -or, worse, the dreaded “texture trashing” cycle.

 

Nevertheless you do have a point, as both the single-instance blurring and the texture trashing are still existing bugs that affect many people, and none of the countless tentative fixes released so far has definitively eliminated the problem... I reckon because no one has apparently identified the ultimate cause yet, after just as many have been pointed out, from heavy HUDs to badly optimized/separated UI elements, to awfully overtextured products by creators, to outdated 3D rendering engine issues such as you suggest yourself...

 

You can search for this issue at both the official viewer's and Firestorm's JIRA websites, where it has been discussed at great lenght many times. I doubt that you'll find a permanent solution, even for your particular case, but at least it's very probable you'll glean you'll glean a far deeper and technical description about it all than I could possibly provide.

[NatalyaCrump]

Maybe (maybe) things like this will be improved on when the thing we are all calling "SL2" (or perhaps it should be called SL Vista ! ) eventually is released.

But a lot share your frustrations currently.

[LlewLlwyd]

I would prefer it if LL would reduce the video memory requirement . . .

. . . or maybe you (and they) would prefer it if the "shared experience" was restricted to those who could afford the most expensive equipment?

[kiramanell]

---

NatalyaCrump wrote:

Maybe (

maybe)

things like this will be improved on when the thing we are all calling "SL2" (or perhaps it should be called SL Vista ! ) eventually is released.

But a lot share your frustrations currently.

---

SL2 won't do be me much good for my current homes. And by the time SL2 gets to the point where there's as much available as in SL now, we'll be 5 years further ahead.

 

LL just really need to put some minimal effort into finally lifting the limit. Especially, like I said, since other 'game' makers have been able to do so successfully for over a decade now.

 

 

 

 

[LlewLlwyd]

---

kiramanell wrote:

 by the time SL2 gets to the point where there's as much available as in SL now, we'll be 5 years further ahead.

---

Hold your horses! You're getting a bit optimistic there...

[kiramanell]

---

Ren Toxx wrote:

In many of the numerous discussions about this issue, I’ve seen commented that the 512 Mb. is “a soft limit”, something along the lines that the viewer doesn’t actually “stop cold” at 512 Mb., refusing to load anything else even if the graphics card has more available memory, but rather keeps going if actually necessary. I would say that this is likely true, as I’ve often opened the textures console and seen the numbers raising well past that, often without making the “bias” climb which, in turn, causes the blurring -or, worse, the dreaded “texture trashing” cycle.

 

Nevertheless you do have a point, as both the single-instance blurring and the texture trashing are still existing bugs that affect many people, and none of the countless tentative fixes released so far has definitively eliminated the problem... I reckon because no one has apparently identified the ultimate cause yet, after just as many have been pointed out, from heavy HUDs to badly optimized/separated UI elements, to awfully overtextured products by creators, to outdated 3D rendering engine issues such as you suggest yourself...

 

You can search for this issue at both the official viewer's and Firestorm's JIRA websites, where it has been discussed at great lenght many times. I doubt that you'll find a permanent solution, even for your particular case, but at least it's very probable you'll glean you'll glean a far deeper and technical description about it all than I could possibly provide.

---

Yeah. I've been part of the discussion on Jira, btw. Thing of it is, though, while I've heard many alleged technical reasons for why it can't done, ('32-bit' is always a popular one), I don't wanna hear it. No, seriously, like I said, every other game in the last decade has been able to do so, no sweat; so I don't want to hear some mumbo-jumbo as to why it can't be done, cuz I know, for a fact, that it can.

And if they didn't want ppl to run out of video memory (run out of their imposed limit, rather), then why introduce materials?! Realizing it may triple your texture memory needs is not exactly higher math, you know.

 

And what will they do for SL2? Still brush ppl off with some story about 32-bit and alleged issues on AMD cards?! They'll become the laughing stock of the industry.

 

P.S. Got to posting about this again when, the other day, I started up GTA V. You know how much video memory it wants?! Around 3G (if you don't want every shiny option disabled, that is). Not saying SL should be like GTA V per se, but LL just needs to get with the program: everyone else has moved forward a long time ago: so should LL.

 

 

 

 

 

[kiramanell]

---

LlewLlwyd wrote:

---

kiramanell wrote:

 by the time SL2 gets to the point where there's as much available as in SL now, we'll be 5 years further ahead.

---

Hold your horses! You're getting a bit optimistic there...

---

 

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but the 5 year estimate feels reasonable to me, I have many top-notch homes, and furniture, and what not. First SL2 has to be released; and then I project it will really take several years ere the same level of variety and quality, akin to SL, will be available. And that's assuming it will gain maximum traction from the get-go, that is.

[LlewLlwyd]

---

kiramanell wrote:

---

LlewLlwyd wrote:

---

kiramanell wrote:

 by the time SL2 gets to the point where there's as much available as in SL now, we'll be 5 years further ahead.

---

Hold your horses! You're getting a bit optimistic there...

---

 

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but the 5 year estimate feels reasonable to me, I have many top-notch homes, and furniture, and what not. First SL2 has to be released; and then I project it will really take several years ere the same level of variety and quality, akin to SL, will be available. And that's assuming it will gain maximum traction from the get-go, that is.

---

I project SL V2 will launch two years late, will have disastrous faults, and will take the existing SL down with it.

No, that's not sarcastic.

[Vulpinus]

I agree, having been suffering from all this repetitive texture blurring for a while. With what I'm gradually learning about how LL operates though, I think the request is hopeless.

I think enforced obsolescence is a standard business practice these days. Security holes in Windows? Buy the next version. SL(1) not working well enough for you? Don't worry, just move to SL2 and buy everything again!

/soapbox

Have you come across Niran's 'Black Dragon' viewer? It allows separate control of texture and scene memory, up to 1GB each.

It worked for me. Once I ramped up the values, the texture thrashing stopped. Unfortunately I still much prefer Firestorm overall.

So, more than 512MB certainly is possible.

http://niranv-sl.blogspot.co.uk/

 

[kiramanell]

---

Vulpinus wrote:

I agree, having been suffering from all this repetitive texture blurring for a while. With what I'm gradually learning about how LL operates though, I think the request is hopeless.

I think enforced obsolescence is a standard business practice these days. Security holes in Windows? Buy the next version. SL(1) not working well enough for you? Don't worry, just move to SL2 and buy everything again!

/soapbox

Have you come across Niran's 'Black Dragon' viewer? It allows separate control of texture and scene memory, up to 1GB each.

It worked for me. Once I ramped up the values, the texture thrashing stopped. Unfortunately I still much prefer Firestorm overall.

So, more than 512MB certainly is possible.

http://niranv-sl.blogspot.co.uk/

 

---

^^ That's a great tip! Thx! Gonna try it out rightaway!

[Vulpinus]

You're welcome. There have been a couple of updates since I last tried it, so I've just been running it again myself.

Graphics rendering is spot-on. No thrashing textures, no dumping textures behind my back only to reload them again when I turn around, and, maybe it's me, but everything seems to look just a little better.

I'm still struggling to get used to it; mostly I really miss the mouse-walk function that was added to Firestorm but there are other differences too. I guess I'm just used to doing things a certain way.

I'll stick with it for a while though I think. Maybe I'll get used to not having the mouse-walk. Wish Niran would add it, but it seems that's not going to happen.

[kiramanell]

---

Vulpinus wrote:

You're welcome. There have been a couple of updates since I last tried it, so I've just been running it again myself.

Graphics rendering is spot-on. No thrashing textures, no dumping textures behind my back only to reload them again when I turn around, and, maybe it's me, but everything seems to look just a little better.

I'm still struggling to get used to it; mostly I really miss the mouse-walk function that was added to Firestorm but there are other differences too. I guess I'm just used to doing things a certain way.

I'll stick with it for a while though I think. Maybe I'll get used to not having the mouse-walk. Wish Niran would add it, but it seems that's not going to happen.

---

I look greatly forward to using it! (Will be at my own computer again tomorrow) Already put in a request, on their forum, for per-parcel windlight settings (Firestorm style). Those I will likely miss the most.

[Lori Paramour]

Personally, I'm sick and tired of hearing about the much ballyhooed new and improved SL2.  LL can't manage the current platform efficiently, what makes anyone believe that they will do a better job with the new platform, beyond wishful thinking.

I see the new platform as serving two purposes (strictly for the benefit of LL):

A.)  Forcing everyone into the more expensive Mesh Bodies (or into using the highly sucky ones SL provides)

B.)  Forcing everyone to re-buy everything they already own in the current platform, so that SL can collect a commission of the inevitable pending MP sales for these items.

Call me a skeptic, but I don't believe for a New York minute they will run the new platform any better than they do the current one.

 

[LlewLlwyd]

---

Lori Paramour wrote:

 

Call me a skeptic, but I don't believe for a New York minute they will run the new platform any better than they do the current one.

 

---

Skeptic? More like a pessimist cynic realist...

[Dillon Levenque]

I have no data on the issue of video memory limit, so this won't do a thing to help you find an answer.

I just wanted to say that your OP and the rest of your comments were very refreshingly cohesive. You identified what appears, based on your discussion and the input of others, a very real and presumably fairly easily solvable issue, but you managed to do so without screaming in rage at the readers of the forum as if we were all employees of Linden Lab. Without screaming at all, actually. I don't believe I even heard you raise your voice.

Not only that, but you actually used the phrase 'per se' appropriately, meaning you know what it means. You'd be absolutely astonished to know often it is used in entirely the wrong context (and not infrequently spelled wrong to boot).

Point is, you make sense. I didn't miss how you put quotes around 'game', either. I don't recall seeing you before, but you do have 130 posts. Maybe you spend most of  your time in other places than GD. I hope you stop by here more often.

[Coby Foden]

---

Lori Paramour wrote:

Personally, I'm sick and tired of hearing about the much ballyhooed new and improved SL2.  LL can't manage the current platform efficiently, what makes anyone believe that they will do a better job with the new platform, beyond wishful thinking.

---

This is very strange:

1. If some other company was making a new virtual world platform then nobody would complain about it.

2. When Linden Lab is making a new virtual world platform lots of people are complaining.

I wonder why is this? New virtual world platform is a new platform whoever makes it. So why all the complains when Linden Lab makes one? Weird.

[kiramanell]

---

Dillon Levenque wrote:

I have no data on the issue of video memory limit, so this won't do a thing to help you find an answer.

I just wanted to say that your OP and the rest of your comments were very refreshingly cohesive. You identified what appears, based on your discussion and the input of others, a very real and presumably fairly easily solvable issue, but you managed to do so without screaming in rage at the readers of the forum as if we were all employees of Linden Lab. Without screaming at all, actually. I don't believe I even heard you raise your voice.

Not only that, but you actually used the phrase 'per se' appropriately, meaning you know what it means. You'd be absolutely astonished to know often it is used in entirely the wrong context (and not infrequently spelled wrong to boot).

Point is, you make sense. I didn't miss how you put quotes around 'game', either. I don't recall seeing you before, but you do have 130 posts. Maybe you spend most of  your time in other places than GD. I hope you stop by here more often.

---

*blush* Why, thank you for all the kind words! Oh brave virtual world that has such people in it!

Also, again a great big thanks to Vulpinus, for his golden tip regarding the Black Dragon viewer! In all honesty, I was not letting my hopes up too high (I figured, how good can it be, next to, say, Firestorm!?). Well, I can be short about it: Black Dragon viewer instantly solved ALL my blurring issues (after, indeed, allocating 2x chunks of 1G video memory to the viewer). So yeah, not to rub it again, but there's the proof: (naturally) using more than 512MB can be done!

By the way, Black Dragon also comes with superior Screen Space Reflections to boot! Firestorm viewer has those too, but they totally blacken the mirror surfaces first (thus rendering the feature kinda useless). To wit, here's a snapshot from one of those heftily materials-enabled skyhomes I was talking about:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wjr52zzrwapzgeo/Skyhomes.jpg?dl=0

Just look at those fantastically rendered Screen Space Reflections! (the mirrory effect on the floor). THIS is how SL was meant to be experienced!

[Vulpinus]

Nice screen shot; this is indeed how SL should look! The visual experience is one of the main draws to me in SL.

I recently built myself a mansion which uses a lot of specular and normal maps, many of them home-made. I've eliminated 'superfluous' texture use anywhere I can and reduced the image size of a lot of bought-in textures. Even so, Firestorm and the official LL viewer still struggle after a short time there and the blurries hit.

With Black Dragon, it just works, and looks better too.

Now that Niran has shown using more GPU memory is not only possible, but makes such a difference (at least to some of us), perhaps LL and the Firestorm devs might take notice... we can hope.

In the meantime, I'm getting used to using my Spacemouse to move around with again in Black Dragon.

[kiramanell]

---

Vulpinus wrote:

Nice screen shot; this is indeed how SL should look! The visual experience is one of the main draws to me in SL.

I recently built myself a mansion which uses a lot of specular and normal maps, many of them home-made. I've eliminated 'superfluous' texture use anywhere I can and reduced the image size of a lot of bought-in textures. Even so, Firestorm and the official LL viewer still struggle after a short time there and the blurries hit.

With Black Dragon, it just works, and looks better too.

Now that Niran has shown using more GPU memory is not only possible, but makes such a difference (at least to some of us), perhaps LL and the Firestorm devs might take notice... we can hope.

In the meantime, I'm getting used to using my Spacemouse to move around with again in Black Dragon.

---

Yes, both LL and Firestorm viewer struggle with the blurring: they're simply using too little video memory.  Niran (looks like the man made Black Dragon viewer all by his own self; pretty impressive) showed, irrefutably, that using more video memory than 512MB can be done. I shall endeavor to getting a Firestorm JIRA I once started about this re-opened, pointing to this thread, and ask them to either talk to Niran, to figure out how it's done, or to just flat-out hire the man!

Like you, I'm glad I didn't compromize on my build and materials: it was worth the wait. I will try Texture Compression, though, which I saw in Black Dragon today, and which, iirc, is available in Firestorm too. The former says it only reduces the textures' colors (bit-depth reduction only?). Anyway, it might be worth the experiment.

Black Dragon will not support per-parcel windlight settings, which is kinda sad; but Niran said LL is planning a complete overhaul of windlight settings (including per-parcel, I take it); so, when the time is there, he will just implement the latter.

 

 

[kiramanell]

And here's the old FS Jira I once filed about it:

 

http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/SUP-14023

 

Black Dragon viewers, or anyone else, of course, should feel free to drop in.