Why does Linden Labs allow for griefer tools to excist????

[Barry Lubezki]

Since about a year the griefers of Secondlife have a new toy: Clean Burst. It's actual name is something like Sim Side Bomb. I am not a technician so I can't give a detailed description of the item, but from what I'm told it is like a 64.000 meter prim compressed in a small prim block. Usually griefers carry this item on their avi, but last night a griefer dropped this thing on a plot of land next to my club.

This Clean Burst somehow removes everybody from a place. Remember when you rez a block around you and it presses you out of itself? That is what this thing does, only this block is huge. And you can't see it.

During the last year we have seen several attacks with this item. Somehow griefers manage to pass this item on to eachother and they all go round Secondlife with it to have a laugh. Now what can you do as a clubowner who is victim to this hooliganism? Not much. You can ask Linden's Live Chat to do something, but they won't. They will tell you to send a Abuse Report. So you send a Abuse Report. Then what? Nothing. Well, half a day later someone comes along and clears up the mess. So your sim is finally clean and you can use it again. But... a week later another griefer comes along, carrying the same Clean Burst tool. And there we go again.

During this past year I must have sent at least a dozen AR's about griefers with this same Clean Burst tool. You would think that LL would do something about it. But no. They don't. We know that they can. Over the years it happened several times that Linden Labs took certain objects out of SL, mostly illegal copies of things people created.

But now there is a chance to take a item out of SL that ruins people's fun. So I pose the question here: why does Linden Lab refuse to take this griefer tool Clean Burst out of Second Life?

 

 

 

 

[Barry Lubezki]

Here I am, posting this message on a forum that is infected with loads of spam. Who the hell am I fooling???

[Freya Mokusei]

'Griefer tools' can't not exist, that is the nature of the platform on which we live.

The trick you speak of (which I'll vary slightly - it can't be fired while worn, it requires Rez Permissions on land) is relatively simple but uses very necessary functions that SL creators need every day. You can also protect yourself from this attack by sitting down (or scripted countering), but overall it's not advisable to run a busy club next to land that is either abandoned or rez-enabled. The only way to prevent attacks like this entirely is to own the region (depending on club size, this may already be overdue).

You're correct that LL can remove specific assets from the Grid (under special circumstances), but incorrect about how this asset is moving around - LSL scripts pasted out-of-world are out of LL's jurisdiction, and a quick copy/paste will return it to the grid under a fresh asset key. There's very little to be gained by blacklisting in this case, most tools like this have been available since the early days of SL - and they keep coming back. A better solution is to harden yourselves and learn the profile of these attacks, speak to surroudning landowners and build a trouble-aware community on your sim.

[Barry Lubezki]

The nature of the platform on which we live??? That platform is a commercial business, not some godsent phenomenon. It is simply a commercial playground and the owners make the rules. So in this case the owners decide willingly to allow for these griefertools to excist in SL. I resent that.

This tool CAN be fired while being worn, It has happened several times at my club.

To prevent this I should move my club to a private island? You know how much money the owners of Secondlife charge for that? And I mean the same owners that willingly allow for griefertools to excist.

Speaking to surrounding landowners is not a option, since the neighbouring land is continuously being devided and resold. What would help is if LL would change the standard settings of land, so that it would not always be wide open for anybody to rez their garbage.

Maybe the object involved is a script that can be passed on outside sl. But then it has to be uploaded at some point, and it always is the same script with the same characteristics. It should be possible to filter that out.

But a more interesting question is.... Why is Linden Labs not responding to my question???

 

 

 

[Freya Mokusei]

You're mis-attributing the cause and the blame. The LSL functions are necessary, the fact that they can be used for 'bad stuff' is incidental. It's not possible to stop the creation of 'bad stuff' without affecting 'good stuff'. No, the script won't always have the same characteristics. I don't think you understand how scripts or assets work in SL, so I'll leave you to do further research on why your goals are unrealistic.

The use of this tool definitely requires a rezzed object, therefore Rez Permissions on-sim are necessary for this tool to function. This would be the primary way of securing your sim (it has to be the whole sim) against these attacks.

SL is over 10 years old, LL aren't going to significantly change LSL functions or server behaviour after a decade of hearing these same complaints from thousands of other users. Your only choice is for you to reduce the damage that these functions can cause to your parcel.

If you can't move or establish a resistant community you're going to struggle against continued abuse because the region where you are is so vulnerable to these attacks. There is currently no way for you to stop attacks like this that begin in adjacent parcels, therefore you and your visitors are always at risk.

This isn't a new or interesting issue, it's not going to be likely to attract any Linden attention. My own attention wavers now that I have given several solutions, so I wish you good luck and adieu.

[Barry Lubezki]

"SL is over 10 years old, LL aren't going to significantly change LSL functions or server behaviour after a decade of hearing these same complaints from thousands of other users"

Which underlines that Linden Labs is so arrogant that they can ignore complaints from residents.

 

 

[Perrie Juran]

---

Barry Lubezki wrote:

"SL is over 10 years old, LL aren't going to significantly change LSL functions or server behaviour after a decade of hearing these same complaints from thousands of other users"

Which underlines that Linden Labs is so arrogant that they can ignore complaints from residents.

 

 

---

There are a lot of legitimate functions in SL that get abused by people. 

If Linden Lab began to limit, curb or disable these functions then our ability to create would become limited, curbed and / or disabled.

So which do you want?  A World with unlimited possibilities to create or a World with limited functionality?

The problem quite frankly is not with these functions.  The problem is with the people who use them to abuse. 

As far as the allegation that LL is too arrogant to answer you, actually they have already answered us on this matter.  It's all there in the TOS and the CS.  The problem is people don't seem to be able to accept it.

It's a Virtual World we are living in and it was never claimed that it was or is a Virtual Nirvana.  Certainly I'd love it if it was.  But SL is made up of people and not all of them are angels.  There are even people who hate Second Life, people who think that those of us who enjoy it are completely sick in our minds and log in with the sole intent of disrupting us and making us miserable. 

It's a pain sometimes but I prefer the unlimited possibilities and having to occasionally deal with the problems over having the possibilities limited, a solution that probably would not work any ways.

[WolfBaginski Bearsfoot]

You said: 

The problem quite frankly is not with these functions.  The problem is with the people who use them to abuse. 

As far as the allegation that LL is too arrogant to answer you, actually they have already answered us on this matter.  It's all there in the TOS and the CS.  The problem is people don't seem to be able to accept it.

A little over a year ago, there was some pretty bad griefing going on. The bad guys would unleash their attacks over the weekend, and there might be nobody around to halt them. Some places were well-run, and there were people available who could kill the griefing objects within a few tens of minutes. But others were not, and that included the Linden rez-zone: no reaction until the weekend was over.

And so abusive people are reported to the Lindens. And those accounts, more than a year later, still exist.

I have never seen convincing evidence that the Lindens have ever done anything more than a bit of rez-zone clean-up. And, as I have said, I see Griefer accounts still in existence. I cannot tell if they are locked, or why they cannot be deleted if they are, but it makes it hard for me to believe that the Lindens do anything about the abusive people.

Granted, not every griefer deserves to lose their account, but the important point is that nothing appears to happen. Why, one might ask, bother to AR a griefer if there is no visible consequence?

There are a few Lindens I trust, at a personal level. I know how they behave. I know how they react to reports of problems. But the Governance Team, on what I can see, might be no more than an auto-reply function on a computer (behind a locked door in the cellar with a "Beware of the Egress" sign).

That's the problem with griefing.

 

[Sassy Romano]

The issue isn't with the script, it's not with the object, if I understand it correctly, it's something like a prim that goes physical and grows, thus pushing everyone out of its way.

You can't blame someone for having a mainland plot and abandoned land next to it, it's not Barry's fault that people come and go but surely the issue is simple and a very very old one. 

An object should not be permitted to encroach on a parcel if land rights don't permit it, or have some other such feature that prevents encroachment of objects where the prim centre is not the encroaching bit.  This isn't a new problem and should have had solutions from the beginning, especially in the absence of a support team that acts in a timely fashion.

Preventable had it been done properly but apparently the customer doesn't know what the customer wants or if they do, we're often wrong (apparently).

[Perrie Juran]

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WolfBaginski Bearsfoot wrote:

You said: 

The problem quite frankly is not with these functions.  The problem is with the people who use them to abuse. 

As far as the allegation that LL is too arrogant to answer you, actually they have already answered us on this matter.  It's all there in the TOS and the CS.  The problem is people don't seem to be able to accept it.

A little over a year ago, there was some pretty bad griefing going on. The bad guys would unleash their attacks over the weekend, and there might be nobody around to halt them. Some places were well-run, and there were people available who could kill the griefing objects within a few tens of minutes. But others were not, and that included the Linden rez-zone: no reaction until the weekend was over.

And so abusive people are reported to the Lindens. And those accounts, more than a year later, still exist.

I have never seen convincing evidence that the Lindens have ever done anything more than a bit of rez-zone clean-up. And, as I have said, I see Griefer accounts still in existence. I cannot tell if they are locked, or why they cannot be deleted if they are, but it makes it hard for me to believe that the Lindens do anything about the abusive people.

Granted, not every griefer deserves to lose their account, but the important point is that nothing appears to happen. Why, one might ask, bother to AR a griefer if there is no visible consequence?

There are a few Lindens I trust, at a personal level. I know how they behave. I know how they react to reports of problems. But the Governance Team, on what I can see, might be no more than an auto-reply function on a computer (behind a locked door in the cellar with a "Beware of the Egress" sign).

That's the problem with griefing.

 

---

It seems to be really hit and miss on this.  And very badly so. 

In the three years I have had two griefer attacks on the Mainland SIM where I live.  Both facilitated by someone whom we couldn't get to set restrictions on her Parcel, though after the second attack she finally got the message.

In both instances LL was there within several hours and in both that account no longer comes up in Search.

On the other hand, another attack I witnessed at Governor Linden's Mansion went unanswered for several days.  I finally appealed to one particular Linden stating how embarrassing it was to take a new person there.  They never did reply to me but the next day when I went back the attack had been cleaned up.  I don't know what happened to the attacker's account there, I didn't track that one.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

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Barry Lubezki wrote:

 

Which underlines that Linden Labs is so arrogant that they can ignore complaints from residents.

 

 

---

you sound like they owe you things, they owe you nothing

[Marigold Devin]

---

Barry Lubezki wrote:

Since about a year the griefers of Secondlife have a new toy: Clean Burst. It's actual name is something like Sim Side Bomb. I am not a technician so I can't give a detailed description of the item, but from what I'm told it is like a 64.000 meter prim compressed in a small prim block. Usually griefers carry this item on their avi, but last night a griefer dropped this thing on a plot of land next to my club.

This Clean Burst somehow removes everybody from a place. Remember when you rez a block around you and it presses you out of itself? That is what this thing does, only this block is huge. And you can't see it.

During the last year we have seen several attacks with this item. Somehow griefers manage to pass this item on to eachother and they all go round Secondlife with it to have a laugh. Now what can you do as a clubowner who is victim to this hooliganism? Not much. You can ask Linden's Live Chat to do something, but they won't. They will tell you to send a Abuse Report. So you send a Abuse Report. Then what? Nothing. Well, half a day later someone comes along and clears up the mess. So your sim is finally clean and you can use it again. But... a week later another griefer comes along, carrying the same Clean Burst tool. And there we go again.

During this past year I must have sent at least a dozen AR's about griefers with this same Clean Burst tool. You would think that LL would do something about it. But no. They don't. We know that they can. Over the years it happened several times that Linden Labs took certain objects out of SL, mostly illegal copies of things people created.

But now there is a chance to take a item out of SL that ruins people's fun. So I pose the question here: why does Linden Lab refuse to take this griefer tool Clean Burst out of Second Life?

 

 

 

 

---

 

I don't pretend to know how scripted things work, but the description of this particular object sounds like its scripted the same way as many other useful and legitimately-used things in Second Life, so it would not be a good thing for the majority if Linden Lab did delete the script that does this.

As others have said in this thread, landowners have to be vigilant and responsible; have no-rez to most people, and/or very short auto-return to minimise the ability for griefers to attack.

Be neighbourly and drop friendly notecards to other land owners in the vicinity to educate them how to minimise risks of griefers.

Its frustrating, but unless this object were likely to cause problems for the Linden Lab servers, and bring the whole grid down, all you can do is continue with the abuse reports if this should occur again.

 

[Sassy Romano]

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bigmoe Whitfield wrote:

 

you sound like they owe you things, they owe you nothing

---

Hmm, I can't decide whether that's sarcasm or not but just in case it isn't...

 

Say you buy a car and they deliver it with square wheels or the engine never starts

or you order steak in a restaurant and they serve you lettuce leaf instead.

Would you complain?

In the case of SL, when someone such as Barry, pays tier to LL directly for a mainland plot, it's not unreasonable to want able to use the plot of land for the purpose of enjoyment.  When that enjoyment is spoiled by someone acting in contravention to the Community Standards and ToS set out by LL themselves, one would reasonably feel that it's appropriate for LL to enforce their ToS/CS with some vigor.

(I've highlighted the key word there in case it was otherwise too subtle)