Fullperm Alpha Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Hello, ive contacted the phone support and asked them if i could accept Bitcoin instead of L$ for selling my products. They didnt know any good information about this. The only information they've told me is that it is my own decission to accept other currencies.Question: Am i able to accept Bitcoin for payment in Secondlife? And do you have a source for it? Shops in the Secondlife Marketplace accepting Bitcoin:https://marketplace.secondlife.com/products/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&search[category_id]=&search[maturity_level]=GMA&search[keywords]=bitcoin Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenMichelle Lane Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 If you wish to make an personal one on one arrangement to accept Bitcoins in real life for your services in-world you are free to do this. However, all your payments due to Linden Lab will have to be in real US Dollars. All your payments to the Marketplace and to in-world vending systems will have to be either in $Lindens or using an acceptable payment method on file. Anything you create and sell in-world must accept $Lindens. Anything you create and sell on the Marketplace will automatically accept one of the acceptable payment methods on file. Here is the link to the Billing Article in the Knowledgebase. http://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Billing/ta-p/700037 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Clarence Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 If I recall Medhue Simoni has expressed interest with bitcoins in SL, perhaps send a kind IM and you will get a response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullperm Alpha Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 That means, it is NOT allowed to accept payments for example as a landlord to accept payments for rent in bitcoin? I've took a look at the link you've give me - where is the exact part describing this situation? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Ceriano Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 The Second Life system only allows for the exchange of Linden Dollars and US Dollars (on Marketplace) for goods and/or services. If you wish to exchange your goods and/or services for anything else (be it Euros, Bitcoins, sea shells or chickens), you need to go to an outside exchange in order to facilitate that transaction and there's nothing in the ToS which states that you cannot do so. For example, my sister used to rent land from a company in SL, she paid her rent directly to them using her RL Paypal account, which completely eliminated the Second Life Payment system. So, if you have a way of collecting payments in Bitcoins, then, by all means, direct your customers on how to go about doing so. ...Dres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullperm Alpha Posted February 1, 2014 Author Share Posted February 1, 2014 This doesnt answer my question. Its a difference if the Secondlife System offers a easy way to pay in Linden, but my question was: Can i accept inworld payments in Bitcoins and can i clearly offer my customers to pay me in Bitcoin and make a Banner "Bitcoin accepted" here in my Shop AND is this officially allowed from Lindenlabs? I need a source for it to prove it. I will pay 1000 Linden for a information which is proving this for the first one who gives me a source for it which says clearly i am allowed to do this! BTW: If your sister pays her rent in Paypal, she could do this in Bitcoin as well. And: if this is eliminating the usage of Linden Dollar, this is maybe a problem but that doesnt mean i cant offer Bitcoin payments officially without damaging Lindenlabs TOS isnt it? Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Ceriano Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Let's see if I can simplify this for you... Sudoquai Wonder wrote: Can i accept inworld payments in Bitcoins No... the inworld payment system only allows for payment in Linden. Sudoquai Wonder wrote: can i clearly offer my customers to pay me in Bitcoin and make a Banner "Bitcoin accepted" here in my Shop AND is this officially allowed from Lindenlabs? Yes... simply because LL has no standing to tell you that you can't accept outside means of payment. Hence, the example I gave of my sister paying rent through Paypal. Sudoquai Wonder wrote: I need a source for it to prove it. I will pay 1000 Linden for a information which is proving this for the first one who gives me a source for it which says clearly i am allowed to do this! The source is the LL Terms of Service which states nowhere that it is not allowed. Sudoquai Wonder wrote: BTW: If your sister pays her rent in Paypal, she could do this in Bitcoin as well. Exactly. Sudoquai Wonder wrote: And: if this is eliminating the usage of Linden Dollar, this is maybe a problem but that doesnt mean i cant offer Bitcoin payments officially without damaging Lindenlabs TOS isnt it? It's not a problem, for the reason which I've already given. The only way you would run into a problem with the ToS is if you were to set up a business where you exchange Linden for Bitcoin, since the ToS states that only the Lindex can be used to take money out of SL. ...Dres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Dresden Ceriano wrote: The only way you would run into a problem with the ToS is if you were to set up a business where you exchange Linden for Bitcoin, since the ToS states that only the Lindex can be used to take money out of SL. Yeah, pretty much. I guess the other way to get in trouble with bitcoin would be to use it as the basis of a "bank" (or, perhaps worse, a casino). I think the OP only intends to accept them in exchange for goods and services, which doesn't seem in any sort of conflict with the ToS. But setting up any sort of financial services using any currency without real-world government regulatory approval is going to violate the ToS (and may have real life consequences, too, independent of SL). I get a sense that the OP may expect LL to care about the bit of profit they make on the LindeX, and therefore object to a "competing" currency. That's unlikely. But not as unlikely as the prospect of any Linden officially blessing bitcoin -- or any other currency -- for any use associated in any way with Second Life. That ain't never gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionic Merlin Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I suggest you use Virwox if you want to spend Bitcoin in SL. This is a currency exchange, and will exchange Bition for Lindens. However, if you wish to actually "cash in" for real currency, you need to go to the official Linden currency exchange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullperm Alpha Posted February 1, 2014 Author Share Posted February 1, 2014 Bionic Merlin wrote: I suggest you use Virwox if you want to spend Bitcoin in SL. This is a currency exchange, and will exchange Bition for Lindens. However, if you wish to actually "cash in" for real currency, you need to go to the official Linden currency exchange. Sorry, but i dont want to use Exchangers all the time - my target is to make a shop which is accepting Bitcoin directly Inworld with Bitcoin payment over the vendor. You are saying - i have to go to official Linden currency exchange. My Question was: Can i accept Bitcoin officially and where to cash out for real currency is another question. If i am accepting only Linden Dollar i have to go to the Linden Exchange - i know that already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Sudoquai Wonder wrote: Bionic Merlin wrote: I suggest you use Virwox if you want to spend Bitcoin in SL. This is a currency exchange, and will exchange Bition for Lindens. However, if you wish to actually "cash in" for real currency, you need to go to the official Linden currency exchange. Sorry, but i dont want to use Exchangers all the time - my target is to make a shop which is accepting Bitcoin directly Inworld with Bitcoin payment over the vendor. You are saying - i have to go to official Linden currency exchange. My Question was: Can i accept Bitcoin officially and where to cash out for real currency is another question. If i am accepting only Linden Dollar i have to go to the Linden Exchange - i know that already. In order to do this you'd need a script that directed someone to an external web site where they could make payment. After that payment was made the web site would need to tell the vendor it was ok to deliver the product. This is similar to how a redelivery terminal works. A query is made of an external data base and if you are on the data base the product is redelivered. Personally I can think of nothing in the TOS that prevents this. But we don't know how LL would respond to it. The other issue is that because of many problems with Phishing schemes that have hit SL, we highly caution people NOT to enter any info into any web site one might encounter when following a link. Because of the rampant theft of Bitcoins that has gone on, if I had a Bitcoin account, if I ran into your method of payment In World, I'd be very leery about using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullperm Alpha Posted February 1, 2014 Author Share Posted February 1, 2014 Perrie Juran wrote: Sudoquai Wonder wrote: Bionic Merlin wrote: I suggest you use Virwox if you want to spend Bitcoin in SL. This is a currency exchange, and will exchange Bition for Lindens. However, if you wish to actually "cash in" for real currency, you need to go to the official Linden currency exchange. Sorry, but i dont want to use Exchangers all the time - my target is to make a shop which is accepting Bitcoin directly Inworld with Bitcoin payment over the vendor. You are saying - i have to go to official Linden currency exchange. My Question was: Can i accept Bitcoin officially and where to cash out for real currency is another question. If i am accepting only Linden Dollar i have to go to the Linden Exchange - i know that already. In order to do this you'd need a script that directed someone to an external web site where they could make payment. After that payment was made the web site would need to tell the vendor it was ok to deliver the product. This is similar to how a redelivery terminal works. A query is made of an external data base and if you are on the data base the product is redelivered. Personally I can think of nothing in the TOS that prevents this. But we don't know how LL would respond to it. The other issue is that because of many problems with Phishing schemes that have hit SL, we highly caution people NOT to enter any info into any web site one might encounter when following a link. Because of the rampant theft of Bitcoins that has gone on, if I had a Bitcoin account, if I ran into your method of payment In World, I'd be very leery about using it. Would you trust a very big landlord if they will accept Bitcoin? And maybe this script / vendor is already finished and ready to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Sudoquai Wonder wrote: Would you trust a very big landlord if they will accept Bitcoin? I am very cautiuos about trusting any one as far as my financials are concerned. My bank, PayPal and my credit cards offer me certain protections from fraudulent charges to my accounts. BitCoin, while they have as I understand it taken measures to improve security, offers to my knowledge no protections. So at least for me, right now, the answer would be 'No.' I like the idea of an alternative currency but BitCoin is still very much the Wild West and has many weaknesses. The biggest danger still may be if someone should gain control of more than 50% of the BitCoin market. Link and Link. Another issue is that there is no "gold standard" for the value of a BitCoin. It is still being measured against other volatile currencies. Also, if I had started into BitCoins five years ago, today they'd be worth a lot money. They are being treated as and acting like an investment. So what happens to people just starting in with BitCoins today? There is the potential for it to behave like a pyramid scheme and collapse under its own weight. So like with any money market currency, one has to weigh the benefits and risks whether or not BitCoins are viable to them. eta:clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCTV Giant Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Another bubble ready to pop. Bitcoins were trading higher than Gold a few weeks ago. Last time I checked, they were around 800 buck a coin, I really don't see how they would be useful in SL. Oh, and then there's this........ http://money.cnn.com/2014/01/27/technology/security/bitcoin-arrest/ This guy is qualifed to start the next SL stock exchange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LillyBeth Filth Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 As other's have said, you would need to create the platform yourself.. An in world ATM that was linked to an external website that ran the whole bitcoin payment system for customers. I am not sure that LL might at some point make an issue about it as this could potentially lead on to issues for them in terms of a conflict of interest as you are essentially using Linden Labs platform to make money on that is technically competing with their own currency. I, for example cannot make mention of my own external website on the SL Marketplace as it is in direct competition with LL marketplace. IE: I would be encouraging people to not spend on the SL Marketplace but instead spend their money directly with me cutting LL out of the deal but at the same time using their platform to advertise on. They had pulled a number of my listings down when they first took ownership of what was once X street so I can't see any reason why they would "welcome" the bitcoin into their platform, (Even in world) unless they would get a % of the sales at some level. But then again, if you are paying for land off LL it's really up to you what you do on it as many RL businesses use SL land to advertise on for external real life goods as long as LL gets the rent, in theory it should be Okay. Also, you could set it up and they may not notice or care about it for a long time if at all. In short, you're swimming against the tide and it won't be easy, cheap or even allowed long term IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullperm Alpha Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 LillyBeth Filth wrote: As other's have said, you would need to create the platform yourself.. An in world ATM that was linked to an external website that ran the whole bitcoin payment system for customers. I am not sure that LL might at some point make an issue about it as this could potentially lead on to issues for them in terms of a conflict of interest as you are essentially using Linden Labs platform to make money on that is technically competing with their own currency. I, for example cannot make mention of my own external website on the SL Marketplace as it is in direct competition with LL marketplace. IE: I would be encouraging people to not spend on the SL Marketplace but instead spend their money directly with me cutting LL out of the deal but at the same time using their platform to advertise on. They had pulled a number of my listings down when they first took ownership of what was once X street so I can't see any reason why they would "welcome" the bitcoin into their platform, (Even in world) unless they would get a % of the sales at some level. But then again, if you are paying for land off LL it's really up to you what you do on it as many RL businesses use SL land to advertise on for external real life goods as long as LL gets the rent, in theory it should be Okay. Also, you could set it up and they may not notice or care about it for a long time if at all. In short, you're swimming against the tide and it won't be easy, cheap or even allowed long term IMO Yes maybe it competes with Lindendollar, but i know of at least 3 landlords now, which are accepting Paypal, € and $ directly and Lindenlabs now that. They hold together around 500 Sims and i think, if Paypal € and $ are accepted there is no reason for a Company in SL not to accept Bitcoin as well. Ive talked to the owner of the "Bitcoin" group in SL as well, and he said he is doing his business WITHOUT problems 2 years now and Lindenlabs knows this. BTW: There is no risk at all, because they said me at the phone before they would ban an avatar they will ask you kindly before doing anything else. How ive found the Status Q is like that - its not forbidden and its not allowed explicitely - that means: It IS allowed. You can accept Bitcoin without problems in Secondlife and even make advertising! Have a nice day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullperm Alpha Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 CCTV Giant wrote: Another bubble ready to pop. Bitcoins were trading higher than Gold a few weeks ago. You are not exactly right, Bitcoin was EQUAL to the Gold price not able to break the resistance. Breaking the gold price is Bitcoins next target - at the moment it is consolidation phase. If this is done it will climb fast to 10.000$. Which bubble do you mean? Do you mean this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 You do understand what an asset bubble is right? I thought this article explained the bitcoin bubble quite well. This one too. Hoarding will drive up the price of anything. Wasn't that the main reason the US government stopped using the gold standard in the 1930's? Backing money with gold seems more risky than not doing so. One also has to wonder how bad normal inflation is. A dollar might be worth 25 times less than a century ago, but more people are able to buy a house, a car, a new kitchen, plenty of food, go on vacation etc. etc. Hyperinflation is always a risk, but a bursting bubble is a higher one if you ask me. Therefor (among many more reasons) I have more trust in "normal" currency than in bitcoins. But what do I know? I'm not an economist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullperm Alpha Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 Kwakkelde Kwak wrote: You do understand what an asset bubble is right? I thought this article explained the bitcoin bubble quite well. This one too. Hoarding will drive up the price of anything. Wasn't that the main reason the US government stopped using the gold standard in the 1930's? Backing money with gold seems more risky than not doing so. One also has to wonder how bad normal inflation is. A dollar might be worth 25 times less than a century ago, but more people are able to buy a house, a car, a new kitchen, plenty of food, go on vacation etc. etc. Hyperinflation is always a risk, but a bursting bubble is a higher one if you ask me. Therefor (among many more reasons) I have more trust in "normal" currency than in bitcoins. But what do I know? I'm not an economist. The question is: What is the asset, what is the base currency and what is the bubble? You cant argue Bitcoin is a Bubble ready to burst based on two articles. If you are absolutely sure, you can open a Forex Account and just Short Sell Bitcoin. If you are right you will make a lot of money with this bet! I wouldnt do that at the moment. Next target is around 10.000$ - like it or not and it will move to this direction. Maybe not tomorrow but it will. A higher price means, trust is growing and it looks very good at the moment. Bitcoin is nothing else than a money transaction system like Paypal, Western Union or whatever. Fact is - you cant prove it is a bubble. So there is no point argueing against. BTW: you are absolutely right that a deflationary currency is not good at all > Deflation Spiral. As the US goverment stopped the gold standard they've opened the possibility to make unlimited dues, which cant be returned. The US government for example has this problem actually NOW at the moment. They would like to decrease the dues, but they cant. Every half year they are increasing the dues together with the oposition and this leads to inflation first and then to hyperinflation or a hair cut. Maybe not this year but it will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Sudoquai Wonder wrote: The question is: What is the asset, what is the base currency and what is the bubble? You cant argue Bitcoin is a Bubble ready to burst based on two articles. If you are absolutely sure, you can open a Forex Account and just Short Sell Bitcoin. If you are right you will make a lot of money with this bet! I wouldnt do that at the moment. Next target is around 10.000$ - like it or not and it will move to this direction. Maybe not tomorrow but it will. My reservations aren't based on two articles. History (short as it may be) shows the bubble effect, remember the 30-2 dollar drop? The 2 dollar is still higher than the "real value" of the asset, which is of course nothing. Short selling by myself won't be very wise, not right now at least, but what if the biggest bitcoin hoarders would do just that? You'd see the value drop from close to 1000 to 0 in a heartbeat. I won't be buying or shortselling anyway. I don't see bitcoins different from any other asset and I don't like to speculate, call me conservative. As the US goverment stopped the gold standard they've opened the possibility to make unlimited dues, which cant be returned. The US government for example has this problem actually NOW at the moment. They would like to decrease the dues, but they cant. Every half year they are increasing the dues together with the oposition and this leads to inflation first and then to hyperinflation or a hair cut. Maybe not this year but it will happen. The reason the gold standard was abandoned, was to prevent hyperinflation. It doesn't rule out the possibility of course. The value of money is based on trust, much like the bitcoin. The big difference is, normal money is regulated much better and like it or not, people have more trust in normal money than in bitcoins. Anyway, here's an article on the gold standard. Particularly this sentence: “Most economists now agree 90 percent of the reason why the U.S. got out of the Great Depression was the break with gold,” said Liaquat Ahamed, author of the book Lords of Finance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullperm Alpha Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 Kwakkelde Kwak wrote: Sudoquai Wonder wrote: The question is: What is the asset, what is the base currency and what is the bubble? You cant argue Bitcoin is a Bubble ready to burst based on two articles. If you are absolutely sure, you can open a Forex Account and just Short Sell Bitcoin. If you are right you will make a lot of money with this bet! I wouldnt do that at the moment. Next target is around 10.000$ - like it or not and it will move to this direction. Maybe not tomorrow but it will. My reservations aren't based on two articles. History (short as it may be) shows the bubble effect, remember the 30-2 dollar drop? The 2 dollar is still higher than the "real value" of the asset, which is of course nothing. Short selling by myself won't be very wise, not right now at least, but what if the biggest bitcoin hoarders would do just that? You'd see the value drop from close to 1000 to 0 in a heartbeat. I won't be buying or shortselling anyway. I don't see bitcoins different from any other asset and I don't like to speculate, call me conservative. As the US goverment stopped the gold standard they've opened the possibility to make unlimited dues, which cant be returned. The US government for example has this problem actually NOW at the moment. They would like to decrease the dues, but they cant. Every half year they are increasing the dues together with the oposition and this leads to inflation first and then to hyperinflation or a hair cut. Maybe not this year but it will happen. The reason the gold standard was abandoned, was to prevent hyperinflation. It doesn't rule out the possibility of course. The value of money is based on trust, much like the bitcoin. The big difference is, normal money is regulated much better and like it or not, people have more trust in normal money than in bitcoins. Anyway, here's an article on the gold standard. Particularly this sentence: “Most economists now agree 90 percent of the reason why the U.S. got out of the Great Depression was the break with gold,” said Liaquat Ahamed, author of the book Lords of Finance. Bitcoin dropped already from 1200$ to 500$. The market didnt accept this price - correction phase is already over hovering at around 1000$. As well as the 30$ to 2$ drop - this past correction is over. We could really discuss the whole day, Kwak. But like i've suggested: If Bitcoin is a bubble, and you are sure then just shortsell it - i wish you good look and all the best with this bet. I wouldn't do that, at least not at the moment. Maybe in 5-10 years you can think about it. Maybe ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 The fact is, it is a bubble, since a bitcoin has no real value. I am sure it will burst eventually, leaving a lot of users empty handed. I just can't predict when it will burst. Like I said, I don't speculate. Not with stocks, not with bitcoins. I play the lottery once a year, that's enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullperm Alpha Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 Kwakkelde Kwak wrote: I am sure it will burst eventually. I just can't predict when it will burst. LOL Shortsell bitcoin and prove me that you are right. BTW: i never play lottery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I am not going to repeat myself again. I already told you how I feel about the chances of hyperinflation vs the bitcoin bubble and already told you twice why I won't sell short. Doing so would prove that I believe in what I said. It wouldn't prove anything else. Tulips bubbled every year, "dotcom" did. How well did that end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Clarence Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Sudoquai Wonder wrote: Kwakkelde Kwak wrote: I am sure it will burst eventually. I just can't predict when it will burst. LOL Shortsell bitcoin and prove me that you are right. BTW: i never play lottery. You can't short bitcoin. So what are you talking about? You may be able to buy a 'put' option through an exchange in Moscow (LOL) if you have the courage to trade on an unregulated Russian exchange run by one dude. Even if you do 'buy' a put on bitcoin you first need to purchase bitcoin to cover the trade (which is near impossible to purchase anyway.) And last but not least the trade settles in bitcoin so even if bitcoin falls drastically in value (which it will very soon) I win on the put bet but I am paid in bitcoin which means I have a whole bunch of bitcoin that has lost most of its value. This my friend is bad math. The upside profit is 0. When the hamburger you paid for in bitcoin settles in the merchant account the value of that hamburger just may have cost you $800USD. And it's not even Kobe beef. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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